Why must everything be accessible?

[ls-]

Maybe you could argue that for the younger generations, they're used to having everything handed to them: technology, information, rewards (everyone gets a trophy), fast internet (compared to dial up 56k when I was growing up), so more kids than not are used to getting what they want quickly. Perhaps they think it should be this way in mmos as well. As for people my age or around it (29), I'd say they're burnt out on the formula and/or maybe they expect a break in the games they play because of the adult life/work they put into their own lives. Video games should be a spare time of enjoyment and escapism, not a grind, unless that game is an mmo. Of course that's just my opinion, but that's kind of how it's always been.

IMHO, it's not really younger generation thingy. Main "problem" is that many players come from single player games. Significant majority of single player games nowadays aren't really grindy and/or time-consuming, you beat it withing few hours-days, and unless it has multiple main storylines and endings, you're done with it. So people who are used to such kind of progression expect same kind of progression in MMOs.

But MMOs are always grindy (shitton of repeatable content), they have to be, cuz that's the way to retain players, esp if game is subscription based. There's also this social aspect here and there.

These things overwhelm people, they confuses gamers, and quite often cause a lot frustration.

[Hctaz]

Why do you want to force people into doing something they don't want to do? Fear of failure cannot be overcome with pressure. People who suffer from it need change their way of thinking and it's a long process. I'm actually a person who suffers from deep rooted fear of failure and yet, somehow I'm doing the hardest content in WoW. Why? Because I, on my own have found something I want to gain from it and it's bigger than my fear. But I can assure you that if someone tried to force me into doing that I would just quit. I would assume my certain emotional issues keep me from doing PvP and so far no incentive was able to make me do PvP. Well... I'm doing PvP wq's for some reason tho I need yet to figure out why I'm fine with those and won't step into arena or bg.

Also, people nowadays complain about burn out rather than having nothing to do.

Don't try to go into psychology if you have no clue about it.

I never said we force them to do anything. The problem is that there's no incentive at all for them. LFR is an easy, non-social, and low risk way to "see" the bosses. Most people get this experience and then never need to venture into more content. They don't want to do Mythic dungeons cuz it's too hard when it isn't even difficult. They just think it is difficult. Making things Mythic only and maybe having a separate LFR/Normal mode raid and Heroic/Mythic raid would help out a lot I think. It's that carrot there. They see somebody in this shiny gear and realize it comes from a place they can't get to unless they decide they want to step up their game. It's fine if they don't want to but that carrot remains. The only reason I got into raiding was because there wasn't an easy mode. I didn't have an easy path to get the best items with unique models and textures and to see the bosses at all I had to step up my game and get shit done. I think if I had started playing in MoP I would have never become the mythic raider I am today because I wouldn't have seen a point to doing it. These people never get to experience what it feels like to go into a raid with some friends and just... have some fun. I guarantee you if all of these people banded together as friends and tried out normal Emerald Nightmare then they would instantly enjoy it. They might only ever get to heroic and never touch Mythic but that's okay. I'm okay with that.

I just want to see ways to give some real incentive for people to actually try out these new modes. The ways they have it now are not handled properly imo either. Stuff like gating professions behind dungeons and class campaigns behind dungeons. I dunno about all of that.

[Rojaha]

Its funny that people think Vanilla was "hardcore" when the same arguments now were used back then. I know some of the angry hardcore college kids with too much time and nothing real to work toward think "casuals" are some new problem, but these arguments were happening even in Vanilla.

People thought WoW was destroying socialization and not being a "proper MMO" for committing the sin of being able to wipe your own butt without setting aside several hours and having a full party to help you. I mean, really, why not just give someone all the best gear and max level character just for logging in, if you're gonna let them, ugh, solo to max level. Is it really that hard to have a a static EXP party with scheduled dates and times for logging into the game to level? And reaching level cap in less than a year of daily playing? Is this WoW game supposed to be a single player game or an MMO?

[Hctaz]

Now if you look at how the vast majority of pro sport-players endorse casual associations because they generally like people practicing their sport, we can classify as anecdotal what Michael Jordan thinks. And to circle back to WoW, I really don't see most world class players complaining because Karazhan gets queuable, I only see wannabes world class players whining.

Not always. Sometimes you get player like me who whine for a different reason other than elitism. I actively want players to enjoy the harder content. The only problem is that there is currently no incentive at all to do it. It's basically 100% optional. If you don't like the harder difficulties then you can stick with normal and heroic dungeons and be fine. I enjoy the fact that the game is trying to add mythic dungeons onto their roster of things to get you to try, though not for the solo player experience. I like that in order to do Kara you have to do these four mythic dungeons. I want more things that will give some incentive to players who might be a little scared to try something other than content you can queue into. I think the best way to do that is more exclusivity of certain story elements. I would honestly rather see very important dungeons be mythic only and very important raid story elements in a heroic and mythic only difficulty and have an alternative raid for LFR and Normal. LFR should show the basic solo experience in a raid, Normal should show you the basic group experience of a raid. When you've done that and said "Hey I kinda like this and I really want to know what happens in the Tomb of Sargeras" well you can brave it on heroic difficulty. I think it would honestly feel really good to see yourself progress. I got my friends involved in heroic raiding in Cata when they had all mostly stuck to normal modes and we've gone on to raid heroic and mythic together. I think that can happen more.

[Nohzuko]

Are people really complaining about things like heroic version of Kharazan and CoS/Arcway ?
Difficulty level is a way better option then a simple nerf...

Casuals players (or less skilled) are a big part of the player base, they are important...
I'm happy they have more stuff to do now...without affecting me at all.

[Queen of Hamsters]

That shits for my job You know, in the real world where effort and work ethic and such are lauded and massive hours spent perfecting your video game skills are derided as the waste of time that they really are.

Stop worrying so much about how other people enjoy spending their entertainment time and just have fun in the way you deem appropriate for yourself. If you're really so worried about other people's work ethics then you'd be better off spending your time exhorting them to apply themselves harder in RL and less in a video game.

Amen to this.

And WoW was always casual for an MMORPG. Everything being accessible to anyone =/= everything being guaranteed for everyone.

[Varaben]

They tried it your way and clearly they didn't find the results satisfactory.

In fact, every time Blizz tries to pander to the hardcore crowd, it backfires and they end up having to go back and change things. You should be grateful they're still trying at all.

I don't want to drive this point too hard, because it's clearly correlational, but the serious pandering began in Wrath where WoW's growth halted. That's where heroic dungeons became a complete joke, and raids started catering to casuals. The normal raid itself was very easy. Think of Naxx 10 and Sartharian. VERY easy raids without enabling the hard modes.

So when you say catering to the hardcore crowd (which I would say was Vanilla and TBC) backfired, I don't know what you mean. It looks to me like catering to casuals has backfired every step along the way.

[Ragedaug]

Now I'm already certain where this thread will go, but this is a serious question. Why must everything in WoW be accessible to EVERYONE? I just don't understand I think of it as a formula of sorts.

If you play this game for casual play and do not like group content, then you do not need to be able to get dungeon/raid gear or benefits.

If you play this game to raid and take down challenging content then you need the gear and you will in turn earn it, or at least work for it.

It seems on these forums A LOT of people have the mentality that as long as you buy a game you SHOULD be able to complete it in entirety no matter how much effort is expended. Would you simply prefer to login as soon as an expansion is launched and have vendors lined up with full BiS, titles, mounts, etc? So honestly I'd like to hear that side of the story.

I've played many games with an easy mode that wasn't terribly challenging to complete. I think the idea is that Blizzard wants to give as many subscribers as possible access to as much of the game as possible.

I would counter that the part I don't understand is why folks think a game should not be created with an easy mode?

If you create a game that you want to sell and know you can increase sales by 100% by adding an alternate difficulty level, why wouldn't you do that?

[ls-]

Slippery slope you just slided here. WoW will always be multiplayer. You just want a specific type of multiplayer forced on every player: cooperative, team activity.

When I use the Auction House, it's multiplayer, darling.
When I see Xarthasx wielding the Scythe of Eliune in Orgrimmar, it's multiplayer.
Get it? Get it? Ge-ge-get it?

You might have stuttering issues

I've never said that I'm a haco player, I clearly stated numerous times that I'm casual af. I quit raiding seriously way back in Cata. I don't even run M+.

However, I do think that trivialisation of content cheapens it

[Wondercrab]

There is nothing wrong with accessibility so long as it does not tangibly damage the game for more experienced players (ie. making you play through an hour long tutorial before stepping into new content, requiring you beat LFR before trying normal, and so on).

Letting people play games the way they want to rather than holding them all to a prescriptive standard is a very, very good thing, moreso than ever when your game has an audience millions-strong.

[Ragedaug]

I don't want to drive this point too hard, because it's clearly correlational, but the serious pandering began in Wrath where WoW's growth halted. That's where heroic dungeons became a complete joke, and raids started catering to casuals. The normal raid itself was very easy. Think of Naxx 10 and Sartharian. VERY easy raids without enabling the hard modes.

So when you say catering to the hardcore crowd (which I would say was Vanilla and TBC) backfired, I don't know what you mean. It looks to me like catering to casuals has backfired every step along the way.

Wrath is where the game peaked - and still grew. Wrath started at 11.5M subs and ended with close to 12.5M subs. Cata (where they made things hard again - there's like a blog and everything about it) is where subs first took a sharp decline.

[Craaazyyy]

Revenue goes up and up. Blizzard profits. WoW subs may go down but I would love to see how many of those accounts just switch to Overwatch or HoSs or Hearthstone where they still spend money for the company. In regards to just WoW though the casual players still vastly outnumber the hardcore players because if they didn't then Blizzard would have to reason to "cater to them" as people like to say.

they cater to them cause they wanted more.. they wanted to bring more players to the game.. and they were using other games as an example.. but they failed.. failed cause the game is old.. and cause despite the fact that they made it significantly easier its still hard for the newcomers to get into

[A Chozo]

You might have stuttering issues

I've never said that I'm a haco player, I clearly stated numerous times that I'm casual af. I quit raiding seriously way back in Cata. I don't even run M+.

However, I do think that trivialisation of content cheapens it

When you say that you don't want wow to be... singleplayer, you'r telling me that you want it to be, of course, moar multiplayer.
And your perception of multiplayer is, apparently, group content.

Of course trivialisation of content cheapens it. But no content is becoming trivial. Hard difficulties are not being removed, and the hardcore players who do it don't give a fuck about the noobs and newbies that complete their stuff on easy mode. Only the elitists would think that Greg the iLvL 810 Paladin completing The Arcway cheapens their achievements. The thing is, elitists' opinions aren't worth much, but Greg's a cool guy, and a happy Greg is more beneficial to the community.

[TheFirstOnes]

WoW can be hardcore, the options are there for those that want something more.

As I said before "The content is still going to be there, but the queable stuff is for the casual base".

- - - Updated - - -

So you want the same gear, mounts, tittles and achivements that those that put the effort to get them???

Since when did I say "Oh yah, I need those mounts and all"? I did not say that shit at all. All I said was "There needs to be parts of the game that's for the casual base", that's it.

Please, quit making assumptions.

- - - Updated - - -

Vanilla was successful because it was more casual than its rivals.
TBC was more casual than vanilla, and was more successful.
Wrath was the same, more successful than TBC.
Then Cata tried to make everyone hardcore to try and cover up the fact that there was fuck all else to do other than raiding, and it fucked the game over until 4.3 brought us Raid Finder and dungeons that weren't stupid.
Mists managed to undo a lot of the damage, but still got hampered at the end due to the content drought.
Warlords tried to make everyone into raiders because there was nothing else to do (again), and both that AND the content drought nearly killed the game completely.

It seems Blizzard keep refusing to learn their lesson; every so often they keep trying to sneak something in to make us into hardcores on the sly.

Legion is bringing in patch content constantly, as well as bringing in casual content, so...is legion doing fine now..or? Cause..I love legion!

[Lilija]

The problem is that there's no incentive at all for them.

Then why on earth people are still doing hard content?

I guarantee you if all of these people banded together as friends and tried out normal Emerald Nightmare then they would instantly enjoy it.

And people actually still do that... I wonder why...

I just want to see ways to give some real incentive for people to actually try out these new modes. The ways they have it now are not handled properly imo either. Stuff like gating professions behind dungeons and class campaigns behind dungeons. I dunno about all of that.

Yet you know nothing beyond your own experience and act as it's the only way to be. You know that the majority of people who played in Vanilla never raided? The same thing happened in TBC. You will not increase the amount of raiders by taking away stuff from non raiders. If someone doesn't want to raid they won't. There is no artificial incentive that makes people go into raiding. I raid for the experience. Shinies are just the bonus.

Wanna hear something funny? I do the hardest content and I consider myself a casual nowadays. For sure much more casual then I was 10 years ago and had much more free time.

[Blayze]

Legion is bringing in patch content constantly, as well as bringing in casual content, so...is legion doing fine now..or? Cause..I love legion!

Legion is the "sorry guys" expansion to Warlords, the same that Mists was to Cataclysm.
Expect the next one to be shit as they feel they can phone it in after Legion.

[Jewsco]

I was not talking about that. I was talking about players who want mythic raiding gear without raiding mythic and I've noticed they are quite a frequent sight. That what you said is completely fine. The only difference is, if you think about queueing up for Heroic Karazhan like you do for rest of heroic dungeons, I think the main goal of Karazhan being Mythic+ is to make 5 players organize a bit if they want better rewards. If you just want heroic dungeon loot, you have it in other already existing dungeons. If they would make Karazhan queue-able like rest of heroics, I think it would reduce effect of wanting to be there. Don't ask me why it's like that but it surely works.

Those people have always been in game and always will. They will buy carries, heck not as common anymore due to
Bnet but those people use to buy accounts that had a lot of rare items,titles, mounts etc.. that has been and always will be a part of gaming. Reason why gold sellers even exsisted in the first place or games have cheat codes. If one worries only about themselves they won't be bothered with what they can't control

[TheFirstOnes]

Legion is the "sorry guys" expansion to Warlords, the same that Mists was to Cataclysm.
Expect the next one to be shit as they feel they can phone it in after Legion.

Idk....I..wonder *Looks at the black empires return after taking down the legion on argus*


Eheheheheh..AAHAHAHAHAHA......AHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Jewsco]

I don't want to drive this point too hard, because it's clearly correlational, but the serious pandering began in Wrath where WoW's growth halted. That's where heroic dungeons became a complete joke, and raids started catering to casuals. The normal raid itself was very easy. Think of Naxx 10 and Sartharian. VERY easy raids without enabling the hard modes.

So when you say catering to the hardcore crowd (which I would say was Vanilla and TBC) backfired, I don't know what you mean. It looks to me like catering to casuals has backfired every step along the way.

Except that isn't true the players were still growing in wotlk it stopped growing and then saw its first decline during cata. Right when the hard 5 man heroics from cata were implemented. The numbers didn't stop declining until they nerfed the dungeons. So your whole point is based off of lies or untruths.

[burlap]

Holy shit, you people have such a need to feel special in a video game. Calm down. Why do you give a fuck what people do or do not have in a game? Jesus Christ.