Kara will be queueable

[Deleted]

Many other video games have only had one difficulty and are viewed as iconic and wonderful.

Do tell that ginormous list. Of subbed and P2P games.

I can help you, Dark Souls franchise and Ghosts n' Goblins.

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Well, the main incentive i meant was the mythic exclusivity of the two Suramar mythics and the marquee-feature of 7.1: Karazhan, a place with a big place in many players' hearts, i expected Blizz to somehow budge on the mythic-only status of such a big-name place eventually, but for them to do a 180 so very quickly after releasing it means that despite the big name, storied history and (What i could see from the preview shots) awesome design, means that participation figures must be extremely low...

Pretty much this. Blizzard figured out that they put the carrot a bit too far away and it didn't worked as they expected at the end.

[Deleted]

Mythic+ scales up with your group's skill and gear. It's a self-correcting system. However much it gets nerfed, the system will still provide progressively harder and harder difficulty. It actually makes nerfing it pointless.

This is quite an interesting discussion. How works now is that M+X scales with ilvl-x, basically is just an illusion. You can keep increasing X forever, because proves nothing (not putting stupid big numbers what you see/seen on screen in last years). Looking at D3 GRifts, things are quite different, you got a max level of you item, and that it. I think D3 items system is a bit better, even for Grifts, you can't outgear the content.

[SirCowdog]

They did it in tbc and had their highest subs from it. There were still guilds trying to clesr t5 when we were in sunwell. It was wonderful actually. It showed perseverance. Many other video games have only had one difficulty and are viewed as iconic and wonderful. Seeing content isnt what is important. Defeating the challenge is. Only losers dont get this.

How many other games have a playerbase as large or as diverse as WoW? Those other games you're mentioning, such as Darksouls, cater to a very specific type of player. They're built that way from the beginning. WoW may have started out similar to that, but as I said, it's not the same game it was a decade ago. It's evolved. The playerbase has evolved as well. Trying to go backwards won't work.

I remember what it was like in Vanilla and TBC. Trying to find a group if you weren't the perfect race/class/spec. Trying to replace a raid member, like a tank or healer, was a pain in the ass because everyone was at a different point in the attunment or progression. There are VERY good reasons why the game moved away from that sort of thing.

Players who want super-difficulty content have that available. Mythic raiding still rewards different mounts and gear appearances, as well as titles. There's world ranking for mythic raid guilds, as well as the community of badassedness that surrounds that content. Mythic+ doesn't quite have that sort of thing yet, but I guarandamntee you if you can link an achievement for the highest mythic+ levels you'll get respect.

The idea that lower difficulties somehow harms your higher-end experience is BULLSHIT. All it means is that a person is so shallow that they can't have fun unless they're excluding others. That isn't the type of behavior that needs to be promoted in WoW, and I suspect that's exactly why Blizzard changed their stance.

[Deleted]

They did it in tbc and had their highest subs from it. There were still guilds trying to clesr t5 when we were in sunwell. It was wonderful actually. It showed perseverance.

You haven't been there, because you talk bs.

Many other video games have only had one difficulty and are viewed as iconic and wonderful. Seeing content isnt what is important. Defeating the challenge is. Only losers dont get this.

Dude your toxic.

[SirCowdog]

This is quite an interesting discussion. How works now is that M+X scales with ilvl-x, basically is just an illusion. You can keep increasing X forever, because proves nothing (not putting stupid big numbers what you see/seen on screen in last years). Looking at D3 GRifts, things are quite different, you got a max level of you item, and that it. I think D3 items system is a bit better, even for Grifts, you can't outgear the content.

Yes, but Mythic+ also tacks on new suffixes to all the monsters in the dungeon, potentially changing the difficulty radically. Added to the fact that those suffixes rotate on a weekly basis just adds more difficulty to the experience. You don't ever really get to acclimate to the dungeon because it alters before you can put it on farm.

[melodramocracy]

Here's a reality check for you: It's not 10 years ago.

What bearing does this have on anything? Good, it's not 2006, so what? A players eventual lack of tolerance for challenging and / or time consuming content is on the player, not the game itself.

A game which gives anyone with a sub all the tools they need to find some level of progress in the game.

[Deleted]

A game which gives anyone with a sub all the tools they need to find some level of progress in the game.

At least be honest, it is only about getting better gear, and not because of some noble Idea like Seeing the Story for yourself.

[Deadite]

At least be honest, it is only about getting better gear, and not because of some noble Idea like Seeing the Story for yourself.

They aren't mutually exclusive goals lol.

[Frolk]

Ill be preparing my popcore for threads like "Flame wreath is to hard!!" "Why is kara so hard, nerf pls"

[Deleted]

I remember what it was like in Vanilla and TBC. Trying to find a group if you weren't the perfect race/class/spec. Trying to replace a raid member, like a tank or healer, was a pain in the ass because everyone was at a different point in the attunment or progression. There are VERY good reasons why the game moved away from that sort of thing.

Only someone who never had to try and get and keep enough geared shamans for Sunwell could think that that is good design.

[Wingspan]

I keep seeing posts like this saying that "good thing blizzard learned their lesson." What's so bad about mythic only dungeons? I don't get it.

In a word, economics. It is not financially sound to create expensive material that few players ever see (regardless of the reason why they don't see it).

In simple terms with made up numbers, if only 5% of your audience gets to make good use of the material, then the most you could possibly lose by never having created that content at all is about 5% of your players... so you are probably better served by using the same development money to create content that appeals to a much broader base of your players.

This is actually more important now than ever, because the number of decent quality games out there has increased by a large margin since the original release of WoW. And if people start running out of content to play (again, regardless of what causes it) then those other games are waiting there with open arms. As a developer, it is kind of stupid to lose your players to other games when a simple, cost-effective easy mode will keep a number of them with you.

Content like dungeons are literally "something to do"... and you should try your hardest to never put barriers between your players and something to do.

[Banquetto]

Life pro tip: insisting that stuff paid for by everybody who plays the game should have difficulties to cater to everybody who plays the game is not entitled. Insisting that stuff that costs millions to develop and is paid for by everybody be made to be exclusively for you is entitled.

Could not sum up the whole conversation in one paragraph better than that. Everyone offended by Karazhan having a queueable Heroic difficulty added should have a good long hard think about that.

[Nubulous]

Hahahahaha! Flying coming back, and queueable heroic versions of elitist's precious little "only for us" dungeons.

I swim in the tears of gear snobs this day, and I am content.

Yes Arcway, Court and Kara are so hard to do and get into....smh

[Otimus]

What is the point of continuing to gear up and play to the best of your ability in WoW if everyone else gets an easier version for no effort at all.

I mean CoS and Arcway AREN'T EVEN DIFFICULT, but because it takes a tiny bit of effort to find a group and walk... it's somehow hardcore?

You should be REWARDED for your time and effort, and that reward shouldn't be the ability to spend more time and effort and harder versions of the exact same content.

It's not that, it's probably just a case of people just don't want to bother to do it at all. They don't see it as easy OR hard. They just see it as not worth bothering to do, and if enough people feel that way, then that'd explain why things were changed.

Seriously, people are reading way too much into this. I imagine most people don't even give a shit one way or another, Blizzard just wants people to look at the things they spent money making.

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I get the feeling that a lot of people here haven't even attempted any difficulty outside of heroic dungeons, which makes me quite sad. Blizzard should be trying to incentivize that instead of knocking the game down to fit inside the bubble of queuing for heroics ad infinitum.

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Can't it be both? Didn't it used to be both?

They spent many, many years trying to incentivize it and it never worked. Why do you think LFR/LFD even ever got made to begin with? Because Blizzard randomly wanted to be nice for no apparent reason?

Seriously, though.. they were at one point the only real progression for end game, the best gear, titles, and mounts. That didn't work. What else could they possibly do to make it any better? Short of Blizzard setting up their own "Official" guilds for people, I can't imagine there's really anything they could possibly do that'd encourage people to do things they haven't already tried, otherwise they'd have never needed to make things like they are now.

[Blur4stuff]

Up until +10ish and higher what do players do now? Invite complete strangers to their group based almost entirely on ilvl with some class prejudice sprinkled on top. There's no sit down interview beforehand. They don't become bosom buddies while clicking the summoning stone. How would doing this through queue change anything really?

It's as if some people think using the LFD tool to manually make groups is causing millions of players to suddenly say, "you know what, flying to this dungeon has given me the urge to take on a 2nd job and join a mythic raiding guild".

[High Marshal Sigismund]

Hahahahaha! Flying coming back, and queueable heroic versions of elitist's precious little "only for us" dungeons.

I swim in the tears of gear snobs this day, and I am content.

The real "elitists" that you actively hate have long since completed Mythic dungeons and couldn't care less about some of the Mythics becoming queueable content.

They are far too busy completing content that is far too difficult for someone like you to ever attempt.

[Otimus]

They did it in tbc and had their highest subs from it. There were still guilds trying to clesr t5 when we were in sunwell. It was wonderful actually. It showed perseverance. Many other video games have only had one difficulty and are viewed as iconic and wonderful. Seeing content isnt what is important. Defeating the challenge is. Only losers dont get this.

Is that why TBC had higher subs, though? If so, how do you figure? A large portion didn't even reach the level cap, and a small percentile even did an entry raid, at all, period.

I mean, you'd figure that something that important would have had at least half of the player base even stepping foot in the things.

I think what we can really take away from the history of WoW and participation trends is that raiding ultimately means pretty much nothing for the subs, or if it does, it means very little.

(It's also good to remember that around the time of Cata, before it came out, Blizzard had said they had something to the tune of 40 million former subscribers. It's not hard to put two and two together to figure out was really happening during those time periods.

(The reality is that, seemingly, for most people, their TBC endgame was grinding Battlegrounds and MAYBE arena till they got bored. Then they quit, and were replaced by two new people who did the same thing. If they didn't quit before cap, that is!)

Once that churn was gone, they tried to keep what they had, and in that situation, you can't go around basically saying "Yeah, we know almost no one is going to bother with this content, but who cares. Let's take their money and make things just for a small subset of players. Because we can."


I just don't get how people can think that makes any sense at all. There's literally no evidence that it works, and about the only thing people can reference is the game having higher sub numbers in the past. But the participation numbers literally do not reflect that.
Correlation without causation, or whatever.

[Zappsz]

It doesn't feel any different because most folks are running normal mode dungeons prior to 110. Telling, say, level 810 or so players to go hop into mythics would be a terrible terrible idea, despite the folks here who will claim that they do perfectly fine there at that level.

Ya doing mythic dungeons is fine at 810 but not something I would recommend for a random queue, maybe like 820 for random queue mythic dungeon would be fine.

[SirCowdog]

Only someone who never had to try and get and keep enough geared shamans for Sunwell could think that that is good design.

Exactly my point.

Having different levels of difficulty, and different options to form a group is a GOOD thing.

[primalmatter]

Ya doing mythic dungeons is fine at 810 but not something I would recommend for a random queue, maybe like 820 for random queue mythic dungeon would be fine.

It's a heroic version not the mythic in queue from my new understanding so it's no big deal. It's just another thing to age down for the daily bonus