Flying 7.2 Confirmed

[Lane]

Explain why people that say the game play is improved on the ground start flying when its available.
Explain why people that complain that flight paths break their immersion, take them out of the game, are boring and offer zero game play use them when flying is disabled?

1) Because they don't practice what they preach. I enjoy questing. I do it even when it's a 'detriment' to my character, i.e. unrewarding in terms of gold/gear/EXP and generally just a waste of time better spent elsewhere. If I truly enjoyed ground travel and did not like flying I wouldn't fly.

2) Because transit in WoW is terrible. My choices are to either spend half an hour on foot trying to get somewhere (make that an hour if it's Stormheim :P) or suffer through a ~2 minute flight path where my character is completely pacified. Both options suck, but one is less painful than the other.

I know where you're trying to go with this too, the 'convenience' angle. However, for me, ground travel isn't immersive either. The most immersive MMOs I've played have teleportation systems and, more importantly, a dynamic world with events. I actually choose not to teleport most of the time outside of quick town runs because I don't want to miss anything. WoW has the exact opposite of that, a perpetually stagnant world that still forces you to travel through it extensively.

Am i the only one who thinks the shaman mount seems really depressed?

I cannot unsee that now, thanks. ;P

I don't mind having to use ground mounts for a while then unlocking flying, but I wish it made more sense. How do we manage to keep magically forgetting how to fly every expansion?

Especially as a druid. I'm at the top of my class, yet forgot how to shift into a bird and at least glide?

[Eapoe]

My experience is more from the leveling and rares/treasure hunting perspective than WQs, but Stormheim is just awful. At least in Highmountain, if there's a way to get someplace there's a path to it. Not true of Stormheim thanks to grappling. There's the one vrykul village you can't even get inside without it. There are multiple treasures where I've spent ridiculous amounts of time scouring cliff sides for hooks. The map itself is confusing and is little help for navigation.

Highmountain also gets points from me because it's easy to traverse using the kite + Emerald Winds since there's almost always high ground available. I can definitely see that being a problem in Suramar. I haven't gotten very far into it on my DH, but already there have been a few times I've been thankful for double jump + glide.



Like around the summit? I guess I can see that, there's no way to kite + EW to it since it's an incline. I've only had mining quests and a warrior class quest send me that direction so far though and I just use the flight path after the first time. At least it's a dedicated path through there though. There's nothing straightforward about Stormheim, odds are wherever you want to go there's some convoluted way to get there. :P

Yes, because taking the time to learn the terrain is so extraneous and taxing on one's mental faculties. Seriously, it's not like there's some random map generating happening that changes the terrain every time you log in. The grappling hooks never move. I could almost navigate that place blindfolded at this point.
God I'm glad flying is back just to get these excuses of "bad map design" a rest. I'll grant you the first thru maybe the 3rd time it can be confusing, but to say it still is that way is just laughable.

[Deleted]

They lack the courage of their convictions. If they are some blowhard on a forum whining about how flying is the devil only to immediately jump on a flying mount at the first opportunity then it never really bothered them in the fist place.

Well there you have it, people follow the path of least resistance or most convenient path even at the expensive of their own enjoyment on both sides of the fence. That is why its not a real choice.

There are many more examples of this behavior throughout the game, not just in flying and Blizzard have to apply limitations accordingly.

[Thimagryn]

Most end game content is instanced and without flying. That's already more than enough enforced immersion. Flying has to be unlocked in the Broken Shore by completing its content. This means flying is made available when all relevant ground content is done.

What is wrong with convenience when the content is already trivialized? That's why pathfinder exists. So this is a good compromise for pro-flyers being grounded, but suddenly it's not when flight is finally introduced back in the game?

[Eapoe]

Well there you have it, people follow the path of least resistance or most convenient path even at the expensive of their own enjoyment on both sides of the fence. That is why its not a real choice.

There are many more examples of this behavior throughout the game, not just in flying and Blizzard have to apply limitations accordingly.

Of course people follow least resistance and it is present everywhere, from using a sky golem to not dismount while picking herbs, using a Druid as a farming alt before it cancelled flight form, skipping trash in all content (dungeons/raids), flying to a quest area instead of running on the ground and taking in what Blizzard created, etc. Anyone who asks "why don't you just run on the ground instead of flight" also knows this but won't admit it while using it as some great stepping stone to an invalid arguement.

- - - Updated - - -

Most end game content is instanced and without flying. That's already more than enough enforced immersion. Flying has to be unlocked in the Broken Shore by completing its content. This means flying is made available when all relevant ground content is done.

What is wrong with convenience when the content is already trivialized? That's why pathfinder exists. So this is a good compromise for pro-flyers being grounded, but suddenly it's not when flight is finally introduced back in the game?

There are very few saying it's a problem, and those that are simply don't want to admit flight is a handy dandy skipping tool that they will also utilize (even though we all know they will). One issue that is coming up again was mentioned by CowDog and having no flight islands and how that's now a problem. The old content will be trivialized (although with Legion it's really not with AP and emissary), but new content won't be, but people will demand flight for that now too and ignore the compromise that in place.

[Thimagryn]

There will always be the people who demand flight for everything, but that's not really what the issue has been. Most pro-flight players are content with areas locked away without flight - Tanaan and Timeless Isles are indicative of this. The big issue was gating flight completely from the main continent for an unknown amount of time. It was really the lack of communication for flight that was the big issue. That issue has been resolved.

We all realize there's no satisfying everyone, but I think giving people options (and yes, there IS choice considering flight NEEDS to be unlocked) on how to play. Like I mentioned above, I never got pathfinder for Draenor, and all the content I did and continue to do would be grounded there. That's by choice, because I found that WoD pathfinder is too intrusive to my style of play.

[SirCowdog]

Of course people follow least resistance and it is present everywhere, from using a sky golem to not dismount while picking herbs, using a Druid as a farming alt before it cancelled flight form, skipping trash in all content (dungeons/raids), flying to a quest area instead of running on the ground and taking in what Blizzard created, etc. Anyone who asks "why don't you just run on the ground instead of flight" also knows this but won't admit it while using it as some great stepping stone to an invalid arguement.

- - - Updated - - -



There are very few saying it's a problem, and those that are simply don't want to admit flight is a handy dandy skipping tool that they will also utilize (even though we all know they will). One issue that is coming up again was mentioned by CowDog and having no flight islands and how that's now a problem. The old content will be trivialized (although with Legion it's really not with AP and emissary), but new content won't be, but people will demand flight for that now too and ignore the compromise that in place.

It's not a very good compromise. Better would be my preferred option of having there be a real choice between flying or ground mounts. Let the player choose, but make it so that both are good. Right now there's no real choice once flying is enabled, because flying is clearly the more powerful choice. Alternatively, make it so that there are some new zones where there's no flying(so people can enjoy their ground game and class abilities such as gliding or slowfall), and make other new zones where there is flying, so people can enjoy that too.

All in all, the design of withholding flight until after it's no longer relevant is the worst solution of the bunch because it forces players who like flying to suffer the design they don't like, potentially causing them to avoid buying an expansion until it's available. And then when flying is enabled, the people who like ground-only content have to deal with that. The better long-term solution would be to use one of the mixed approaches.

[-Joker-]

There will always be the people who demand flight for everything, but that's not really what the issue has been. Most pro-flight players are content with areas locked away without flight - Tanaan and Timeless Isles are indicative of this. The big issue was gating flight completely from the main continent for an unknown amount of time. It was really the lack of communication for flight that was the big issue. That issue has been resolved.

We all realize there's no satisfying everyone, but I think giving people options (and yes, there IS choice considering flight NEEDS to be unlocked) on how to play. Like I mentioned above, I never got pathfinder for Draenor, and all the content I did and continue to do would be grounded there. That's by choice, because I found that WoD pathfinder is too intrusive to my style of play.

We're getting flight with 7.2. What more do you want? You're still going on and on about choices and flight needing to be added? It's being added. Give it a rest.

[Scottyjscizzle]

Even though 7.2 will probably be a bit down the road, this is FAR sooner than I was expecting it (nice).


Since they buckled this soon (and even gave a patch for its arrival), I wonder if they have finally dumped the idea of delaying (or removing) flight in future expansions. Time will tell I guess.

Buckled? They learned from WoD that waiting til the end was too long, this was the same thing just released sooner so they get the best of both worlds. people actually seeing the world the build, and people being able to fly after they've experienced it for a time.

[Thimagryn]

We're getting flight with 7.2. What more do you want? You're still going on and on about choices and flight needing to be added? It's being added. Give it a rest.

Give what a rest? I wasn't demanding anything. What is your problem anyways?

I was very blatant about why I'm here. I like to discuss things based on principle. I am all for players choosing how to play without arbitrary limits. This isn't something that goes away just because Blizzard announced flight for 7.2. Like I said from the start, I don't care all that much about flight. I care about Blizzard imposing limits on features or content just to extend its lifespan and sub duration.

[Nubulous]

Please don't join us if you unsubbed because of no-flying, we don't need that kind of people/subs in our game.

I still cant believe people quit over JUST not having flying...it is amazingly hilarious to me

[Vargur]

Good. I'm very happy to get this confirmation. Being shackled to the ground is so very tedious.

Sometimes it's unbearably irritating, to the point of ALT-F4'ing. Like that damn wisp WQ. I get it, it's hidden. EVERY, SINGLE, TIME.

[-Joker-]

Give what a rest? I wasn't demanding anything. What is your problem anyways?

I was very blatant about why I'm here. I like to discuss things based on principle. I am all for players choosing how to play without arbitrary limits. This isn't something that goes away just because Blizzard announced flight for 7.2. Like I said from the start, I don't care all that much about flight. I care about Blizzard imposing limits on features or content just to extend its lifespan and sub duration.

And those limits are being lifted in 7.2. So your discussion of things on principal at this point feels more like "We should either get Clinton or Trump for President."

Guess what? Next Tuesday, it happens. So at this point I have to wonder if you are just going to defend choice for the sake of defending it knowing Blizz is already taking steps.

[Thimagryn]

And those limits are being lifted in 7.2. So your discussion of things on principal at this point feels more like "We should either get Clinton or Trump for President."

Guess what? Next Tuesday, it happens. So at this point I have to wonder if you are just going to defend choice for the sake of defending it knowing Blizz is already taking steps.

... And what is your problem with that? I'm not making any personal attacks against you, so why are you being so defensive?

[Wingspan]

Or they didn't buckle and this was their intention the whole time, and nothing has been considered or dumped whatsoever. But I mean, that's too sensible for the frenzied masses.

I meant by comparison to last expansion, where they delayed giving any real information right up until the day they actually said it was gone forever.

It was months and months of "we are still thinking / considering / whatever" which was basically a stalling tactic, because if they were still ACTUALLY considering it, then there would not have been a further delay to get flight when they changed their mind. Because why would they have ever stopped working on flight if they honestly still thought it might still be in the game? Answer: They would not have.

Obviously something this time around is very different. And you are right... it is actually possible that this time around this was the plan. But they could have saved themselves a whole lot of grief if they had just said this the beginning, so probably not.

All in all, this is a pretty good sign for flying in the future. No complaints.

[-Joker-]

... And what is your problem with that? I'm not making any personal attacks against you, so why are you being so defensive?

I'm just wondering what your need to keep reiterating the same old worn out lines over and over is. We get it, people deserve choices. We get it, Blizz has no reason to gate flying anymore. Do you get that they are no longer going to gate flight and are giving people choices in 7.2? Cause at this point it looks like you are still stumping for player's rights and Blizz is already establishing those rights.

[goblingirl]

Omg i get to shift into an owlbeast and fly omg.

[Wingspan]

Or, as design is an iterative process, they hadn't decided in WoD when it would or should come back, and didn't decide until late in the expansion. They said 6.1 not to mislead people, but as an example as to say "We understand you want it, and we agree it should exist, but it may not come back for some time." But as always, the playerbase took that as a promise to release it in 6.1, and when they decided 6.1 wasn't the time, the playerbase assumed they were being shitty when they never meant to make it a promise.

I am not talking about any promises at all. After the expansion launched, they simply never definitively answered the question until they were about to launch what they already knew was going to be the last major content patch. In virtually all communication up to that point, they never gave anything as an answer that was more detailed than that they were "still evaluating" the situation. (And yes, I agree, many people completely misunderstood how very vague those answers were, but a lot of that was due to things said before the expansion launched.)

But, if they were truly still evaluating during those times, then it would have been somewhere beyond stupid to have suspended the development of flight, because game design is too lengthy of a process to just pop it in place at a moments notice (as we eventually saw). So if the decision was as last moment as they tried to make it sound, then flight should have already been finished, considering they already knew they were putting out the last major patch. (Sure, there was some Timewalking stuff in there afterwards, but revamps like that are rarely considered major. It was kind of a throw-in.)

Similar here. They didn't say anything because last time they said something it became a "promise" and as a "promise" they would either deliver, or fail. Maybe it's not a problem with Blizzard - Maybe it's a problem that the playerbase assumes they have everything already decided for expansions to come. Maybe it's a problem that people assume these decisions were decided ages ago and aren't constantly and repeatedly being rediscussed and changed at a moments notice. Because if we assume these things, it becomes a very toxic environment for no reason whatsoever.

Blizzard is perfectly capable of meeting a deadline. In fact, the expansion deadline for expansion being played right now was announced what, eight months ago or something like that (and they came in ahead of that deadline). And an entire expansion has a LOT more moving parts than just flight. Flight, which they somehow managed to have ready as a part of every launch prior to WoD, simply should not have been that hard to pin down a date or patch number for.

If they got grief over how people perceived that, then it was their own doing... because they could have announced it and cleared things up at any time.



Regardless of all of this though, I am glad to see that they bit the bullet and actually made the announcement rather than going the whole intentionally vague route this time. And I think that might actually be a good sign for things to come (flight-wise, at least). This is what I was mostly getting at in my initial post.

[SirCowdog]

I'm just wondering what your need to keep reiterating the same old worn out lines over and over is. We get it, people deserve choices. We get it, Blizz has no reason to gate flying anymore. Do you get that they are no longer going to gate flight and are giving people choices in 7.2? Cause at this point it looks like you are still stumping for player's rights and Blizz is already establishing those rights.

It's because there's still quite a few concerns surrounding flying mounts, even though it is a good start with the unlock being announced.

We don't actually know exactly what the requirements are for Part 2 are. Could be more time-gating through Order Hall missions again. Could be more rep grind. We also don't know what content will be coming with 7.2, or if flight will be usable on any new content after 7.2. It's still a game mechanic which causes issues for Blizzard's content design, and could stand to be improved or better integrated. There's still the issue of the legitimate requests by players for further ground-only content.

Plenty of stuff left to discuss as long as people can be civil about it, anyway.

[Thimagryn]

I'm just wondering what your need to keep reiterating the same old worn out lines over and over is. We get it, people deserve choices. We get it, Blizz has no reason to gate flying anymore. Do you get that they are no longer going to gate flight and are giving people choices in 7.2? Cause at this point it looks like you are still stumping for player's rights and Blizz is already establishing those rights.

Because I reply to different people and none of them were directed at you. This is a public discussion forum, I don't treat everyone like they're the same person who's already heard my statements. If you have a problem with that, deal with it.