Stupid cards

[HisDudeness]

You are missing the point. If everything was at least somewhat balanced. You wouldn't have to flock to the one deck that does the best. You can actually play a deck you like. It's like this. Think of a RTS game. People want it balanced. They don't want to play whats best. They want to play what they like. Blizzard constantly makes cards that makes the computer..aka RNG decide the game or outcome of the turn. As long as they do that, This game will never stand a chance. Same with making ridiculous OP cards. Did you just watch the last game in the Blizzcon tourney? Che0nsu lost because his Rag didnt hit face and win and DrHippi's Rag hit his Rag and then he lost. All because of the computer deciding the outcome. The players didn't decide anything there. The RNG decided who won. I've always argued RNG being the worse part of this game closely followed by them not being able to balance all classes to having something viable. Blizzard can't balance a game. This has been proven over and over. But a card game can be.

Another perfect point here. Watching the blizzcon tourney. These guys are constantly having problems drawing a dragon. Playing decks they made just for a tournament cause thats usually what happens. Usually top meta decks with a twist but still. But when playing as a say...Midrange Shaman..you don't have to worry about drawing into a dragon to win or a board clear. The deck is just plain OP along with many others. You don't have to rely on draw. You rely on the fact that Blizzard made decks that play themselves.

I mean I just watched the supposed best players in the world and I haven't seen one win based on skill. They have all been based off RNG and the same decks over and over fighting over top decking.

It's easy to sit here and think, this applies to everyone, that you are just a great HS player. You think you are just an amazing player by holding onto your board clears that just won you the game. But you have no idea how well your opponent drew or anything. For all you know, They could have easily had shit draws all game and you saving your board clear did nothing to win you the game. It could be his crappy draw. That's why watching games on twitch and being able to see what each player draws helps to show you how absolutely terribly unbalanced this game is.

[Pantalaimon]

You are missing the point. If everything was at least somewhat balanced. You wouldn't have to flock to the one deck that does the best. You can actually play a deck you like. It's like this. Think of a RTS game. People want it balanced. They don't want to play whats best. They want to play what they like. Blizzard constantly makes cards that makes the computer..aka RNG decide the game or outcome of the turn. As long as they do that, This game will never stand a chance. Same with making ridiculous OP cards. Did you just watch the last game in the Blizzcon tourney? Che0nsu lost because his Rag didnt hit face and win and DrHippi's Rag hit his Rag and then he lost. All because of the computer deciding the outcome. The players didn't decide anything there. The RNG decided who won. I've always argued RNG being the worse part of this game closely followed by them not being able to balance all classes to having something viable. Blizzard can't balance a game. This has been proven over and over. But a card game can be.

Another perfect point here. Watching the blizzcon tourney. These guys are constantly having problems drawing a dragon. Playing decks they made just for a tournament cause thats usually what happens. Usually top meta decks with a twist but still. But when playing as a say...Midrange Shaman..you don't have to worry about drawing into a dragon to win or a board clear. The deck is just plain OP along with many others. You don't have to rely on draw. You rely on the fact that Blizzard made decks that play themselves.

I mean I just watched the supposed best players in the world and I haven't seen one win based on skill. They have all been based off RNG and the same decks over and over fighting over top decking.

It's easy to sit here and think, this applies to everyone, that you are just a great HS player. You think you are just an amazing player by holding onto your board clears that just won you the game. But you have no idea how well your opponent drew or anything. For all you know, They could have easily had shit draws all game and you saving your board clear did nothing to win you the game. It could be his crappy draw. That's why watching games on twitch and being able to see what each player draws helps to show you how absolutely terribly unbalanced this game is.

Wow you're really complaining about Rag rng making the game bad? You must not have enjoyed the game then if you're targeting a card that was part of the classic set. I don't think you grasp that taking rng out of cards, such as Rag in your example, would actually make the game more OP and punishing. Say you took Rag and made it completely rng-free, instead making it something along the lines of "Can't attack. At the end of your turn deal 8 damage to an enemy." (ie a target you can choose) you would always do massage face damage if the opponent's board wasn't threatening and if it was your rng-free Rag would always target the smartest target. Taking rng away from cards isn't always the best solution to improve the game. Take Arcane Missiles for another example, in Tempo Mage do you realize how much better the card would become if you could choose the targets of the missiles each time. You would simply see games end much sooner. Again, player choice would degrade the game. It is easy to say 'Hey, rng is making this game thoughtless and not fun, we should just take it away to make it better', but in reality the aftereffects of doing so would create its own problems. One last example, imagine how much better Sylvannas would become if you could choose the minion you mind controlled on a large board?

As for rng screwing your draws over, such as with the dragon example, there are two really big points affecting that that isnt really unique to HS at all. First of all, why shouldn't the cards you draw be random each time? That is a basic concept behind any card games, you don't know what you're going to draw each turn, with a few exceptions like Tracking or The Curator (but even that one isn't real drawing). It seems like you would prefer to have HS have much more deck cycling, or card sniping mechanics, in order to completely avoid HS following the basic card game concept of not knowing what you're going to draw. Again, taking away this random element by providing players many tools to choose what they draw into would either make games end sooner (in terms of aggro decks choosing what cards they can draw into) or games would be able to choose what answers they draw from their decks (in terms of control matchups) instead of top decking blindly.

The second point about dragon decks drawing poorly sometimes, while midrange shaman doesn't as usually, is very easily explained as a weakness of what card games usually describe as 'tribal decks', or a deck that synergizes on particular families/types of monsters/minions/cards. Dragon decks in HS are either mostly tribal-based (with tons of dragons and/or minions that activate on dragons) or are partly tribal-based. A dragon player in HS losing to a deck like midrange shaman, or any other non-tribal deck, is not indicative of HS being a bad game or necessarily being poorly designed, it is due to the player purposefully building around a deck that heavily relies on having control/win conditions that revolve around limited synergy. In general, any deck that would be considered tribal-free will fair better than most tribal decks if both types of decks have about the same value of cards for the tribal or non-tribal based strategies in general. This is because the non-tribal decks still work if they don't get perfect card draw, while tribal-based decks (be it dragons, or deathrattles, or mechs, or murlocs, etc) can get screwed if they don't draw their niche synergistic cards/plays at opportune turns. Tribal-based decks will always work like this unless the game incorporates those problematic card sniping and/or deck cycling mechanics I mentioned above. Card games just favor neutral and non-tribal minions & strategies more than niche card & minion families.

[HisDudeness]

Sorry man, I can't go any further with you. You just don't get it. It's like Mahourai said, If I spelled that correctly. Don't reply to me anymore. You make zero sense.

[Pantalaimon]

Sorry man, I can't go any further with you. You just don't get it. It's like Mahourai said, If I spelled that correctly. Don't reply to me anymore. You make zero sense.

Really, bud. How do you not understand? Have you not played other card games outside of HS before?

I'll break it down for you into extremely dumbed down language. Dragon decks don't work as well as things like Midrange Shaman or Control Warrior because they depend on drawing well into dragons, or other specific types of minions, that activate each other's effects. If you don't draw them they do nothing and are vanilla mobs essentially. Midrange Shaman & most other decks don't have to worry about most of their minions or cards not activiating because they didn't draw a certain family of card in their hand to play in a short period of time. No idea how you don't understand that concept. A deck that uses something like Wyrmrest Agent (for a simple example) will never be as good as one that uses Totem Golem. Totem Golem will always be playable on turn 2, while Wyrmrest Agent will not always be playable with the +1 attack & taunt proc if you drew poorly and have no dragons (The tribe of that deck. If you don't understand what tribal means in reference to many card games you just have to look it up.)

I also find it rich that you say I don't get it then immediately admit you don't understand what I'm saying. Hypocritical much? In the end you clearly aren't familiar with terms outside of the context of Hearthstone so of course your arguement and responses to my points above would be non-existent. The best cover to try and attack the points that somebody presents in a debate is cover your own ignorance/lack of understanding by saying the other person doesn't get it. I provided legitimate points about how removing all rng in the game could affect HS itself, as well as rationale for why tribal decks usually fair worse than decks that are not tribal based. What was your rebuttal to those points? 'Wah, I don't understand what you are saying therefore you don't really understand the topic!' Pretty fail response to be honest. If you can't handle posters who can provide concrete obstacles to your 'perfect' proposals to improve/change the game I suggest you don't continue posting in such threads.

I can match snark with snark too bud.

[PPN]

It's easy to sit here and think, this applies to everyone, that you are just a great HS player. You think you are just an amazing player by holding onto your board clears that just won you the game. But you have no idea how well your opponent drew or anything. For all you know, They could have easily had shit draws all game and you saving your board clear did nothing to win you the game. It could be his crappy draw. That's why watching games on twitch and being able to see what each player draws helps to show you how absolutely terribly unbalanced this game is.

This is absolutely true. With some experience you can sometimes guess the deck or decktype and save your cards for crucial moments. Last time i played priest vs handlock and i have 2 swd and 2 entomb and sylvanas. With 12 xards in my deck i didnt get one and laot to some giants. When the game started i was pretty positive about the outcome.

I wonder if those ppl who run anyfin actually think that it was skill when they say "well played" and "hello" after they suicided all their murlocs on your minions just to anyfin for the win....

[HisDudeness]

Pantalaimon. I told you I'm not responding to any more rubbish you say. These mile long paragraphs full of stinkage are tiring to read when its the same stuff being spewed. I'm not reading that. And yep PPN. It's that simple. That's why anyone who tries to offer "advice" is just so full of themselves that you can't communicate with them. Yes, Every card game revolves around drawing winning conditions. Duh! Or saving your winning conditions. Duh! Hearthstone has cards and decks that just no matter what you do, You can't win. That's called imbalance.

[Pantalaimon]

Pantalaimon. I told you I'm not responding to any more rubbish you say. These mile long paragraphs full of stinkage are tiring to read when its the same stuff being spewed. I'm not reading that. And yep PPN. It's that simple. That's why anyone who tries to offer "advice" is just so full of themselves that you can't communicate with them. Yes, Every card game revolves around drawing winning conditions. Duh! Or saving your winning conditions. Duh! Hearthstone has cards and decks that just no matter what you do, You can't win. That's called imbalance.

Yet you keep responding.

Your remark about the more stupid cards & decks in HS making it so you just can't win is BS. Even Dr. Balanced had counters in the form of BGH or Lightbomb for priests back before the format shift. Just because you personally don't often win against them or are unable to counter them a good portion of the time does not mean every player suddenly loses when Midrange shaman or Control Warrior warrior makes a powerful play.

You're more or less trying to say that when a certain deck is played, or a certain card, that it makes the match unwinable for the opponent. That doesn't happen for every matchup, otherwise the decks that play those powerhouse cards, or a powerhouse deck in general, would have a 100% win ratio. Strong decks don't only lose because they drew badly. Are there still very powerful single cards or decks in our meta? Of course, but saying they have no counters is nothing more than the remarks of a less skilled player. If you watch some experienced streamers you can see how some of these counters can sometimes turn the tide of strong troublesome matchups. Why else do you think people like Kripp, Trump, and others don't always have to play something like Freeze Mage or a mirror Midrange Shaman deck in order to beat other Midrange Shamans?