a response to those who hate casual players

[Adolecent]

What happened is that these casuals whined and cried, Blizzard knuckled under, many of the good players left, and in the wake of this exodus was all the whiners left over and more bubblegum casuals who joined, which amplified the problem, where the whiners now feel encouraged to cry about everything because of the positive reinforcement.

Blizzard got the playerbase it deserved.

They got you.

[Deleted]

No, time is not necessarily a factor in being a casual...there are casuals who play the game longer than the hardcores. The difference is one of motivation...not time spent.

Do you have any sources for this or are you just talking out of your ass? Because I founded my statement on a gamer-wikipedia article that I so nicely quoted for you. You just say "no, I'm right".

- - - Updated - - -

Wrong on both counts.

Then proceeds to explain why I'm right in the assertion that creating high frequency bus routes in areas where there is not a lot of return to be expected is wrong.

Fantastic.


As for majority of your customers blabla ... WoW is not a standard video game. It gets the majority of it's earnings from their monthly subscription fee. So a casual who plays for 2 months and then signs off is of less value than a hardcore raider who keeps raiding for months to come. Designing a subscription based game around a volatile audience is stupid.

[Taygai]

I'm sure someone has said it before but I don't feel like going 6 pages through to find it.

This is what LFR was made for.

Organized raiding only bosses/endings have only impacted the lore once. Ragnaros. When we sealed him for "good?" (I mean it's WoW, is anything gone for good)

Algalon was not a huge part of the lore, he was interesting but we were really there for yogg saron. Sinestra was a neat filling point, but I don't feel lesser of a person for not seeing her in current content. I felt good enough just seeing cho'gall die.

Ra'den in throne of thunder wasn't super pertinent to the lore. We were there to stop lei'shen, and we did. You could in LFR but ra'den was a prior king of thunder basically.

The heroic phase to garrosh was just icing. You could easily make out the lore in lfr, flex, normal & heroic.

Warlords also brought cho'gall into lore, but I didn't feel like he was going to make a huge difference. Actually when I first beat imperator I went and watched paragon's video and was like "ooh that's neat." But I felt like I got my fill of lore just killing imperator.


Really LFR is going to fill you in on the lore. Think about it like, the hard mode only bosses & hard mode only phases are just for those who read a book multiple times. LFR is for those who want to read it once and get it over with. You'll get your lore, but you have to go into a raid for it. And LFR is there if you don't like being a part of an organized group or a PUG. LFR is queue and go.

[Polybius]

Prestige? Its a bloody videogame...

Some people in this thread really need their priorities fixed. Calling the game work... lol.

Thank you Blizzard for giving a casual player like me acces to all content so I can enjoy my familylife, other hobby and my RL friends, something some here obviously don't have.

Games have their difficulties. Something tells me that loud casuals want content, but don't want to bother to play for it.

Brawler's Guild worked out fine, I rarely see self-proclaimed casuals ask for such content.

This goes hand-in-hand with the request to make Mythic difficulty queuable. Even if it became part of the LFD system, you still wouldn't be satisfied. This is why Blizzard stopped listening.

[Mifuyne]

Casuals don't come on forums and whine about what people say about casuals.
Casuals are the quiet masses that enjoy the content they are given.
Nice try tho.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Do you have any sources for this or are you just talking out of your ass? Because I founded my statement on a gamer-wikipedia article that I so nicely quoted for you. You just say "no, I'm right".

You mean this:

Casual gamer: The term "casual gamer" is often used for gamers who primarily play casual games, but can also refer to gamers who play less frequently than other gamers.

Where you focus solely on the second part of the sentence but completely ignore the first? WoW can be played as a very casual game if that's what you are into.

While we are throwing out definitions let me hit you with one:

Hardcore Gamer: Ernest Adams and Scott Kim have proposed classification metrics to distinguish "hardcore gamers" from casual gamers,[27] emphasizing action, competition, complexity, gaming communities, and staying abreast of developments in hardware and software.

This tells us that there are a variety of differences between casual and hardcore. Time played is not the sole metric one uses to determine whether a person is a "hardcore" or "casual" gamer.

[Deleted]

Then proceeds to explain why I'm right in the assertion that creating high frequency bus routes in areas where there is not a lot of return to be expected is wrong.

Fantastic.

You missed the point. Business runs on Return on Investment, you invest in a new product line, or more buses, or more content in an MMO, then you expect to get a return. If the return is lower than the investment you go broke.

'Hardcore Raiders' make up a tiny % of WoWs audience and always have done, despite Blizzards best efforts. Yes they stay subbed for a long time but there aren't many of them. The number of guilds running Normal/Heroic mode raids dwarfs the number of guilds running Mythic. If you are in a Normal mode guild, and your gear isn't great, and you don't read guides, or practice your rotation then Normal is pretty challenging for you. If it's taken your guild a few weeks to down Normal Cenarius then you still get the big payoff of feeling great, nerdgasms over vent etc etc when the boss dies.

There's a metric ton of social & levelling guilds and people in those run dungeons, run old content, do pet battles, level alts, explore the world, farm mats, grind professions, play the AH, collect transmog, etc etc to do that they need to be subbed to the game and for most of WoWs playerbase stuff that's not hardmode raids is worth staying subscribed for.


The foundation of WoW is raiding, because it's a social game and working together to overcome challenging content is probably the biggest payoff in the game. Even so most of WoWs players don't raid and Blizzard has to cater to them as that's where most of their revenue comes from for WoW.

[Deleted]

Of course it's a video game. Calm down psycho. Your little outburst shows how invested you really are into said game. Nobody said anything about "work", you just went on a semi-psychotic rant about how great you life is, that was completely weird with no other explanation. Like it or not, in anything you do, there are people who enjoy doing more than the most basic form of raids. Now , after all this, I think you need to go get consoled by those real life friends that you felt so compelled to mention. Lolol

Looks like I hit a nerve here.


First of all, yes someone did mention that you had to WORK to gain something in WoW, it's like the third post.

Second, my life is pretty basic, I have a wife, friends and got stuff to do outside of WoW. So yeah that's pretty basic stuff, if you don't have at least one of these, I think you are missing out on life, and looking at your "little psychotic rant" here proves that point.

Thirdly, if people want to spend hours upon hours trying to kill a boss for loot, and what they think is prestige (like 99,99999% of the worlds population does not care Gorboth the destroyer just killed mythic Xavius. I mean seriously, have you ever encountered someone that is actually impressed by what people do in WoW? WoW-raiding is not an e-sport, it's not like people will gather in an arena to see people wipe on a boss over and over again.)
But hey, if that is how they want to spend their free time, go ahead.
But i'll get the same ilvl gear by cracking 15 nuts in Lorlathil, and seeing the story in LFR.

Don't make Mythic or hardcore raiding into something that it isn't, it's not that important to WoW as you might think.

[GreenJesus]

Everything is accessible to all players. You just have to git guud. That is all. If you can't git guud then you didn't utilize the content available to you. Sucks to suck. Just wait a patch or two or expansion and you will be able to experience it.

[Deleted]

First of all allow me to say that I am a casual player that enjoyes the AH game and earning gold etc.

Now... those who say that casual players should NOT have access to everything...
in some manner you are right, those who are interested in raids and to excell should be rewarded
BUT.... the mistake Blizzard does is to have lore endings, ending of lore storytelling within the raids
it is a great mistake because those who raids are not often interested in the lore ending or the movies
they just want to get the loot and to excell at doing hard modes and harder content.

solution is simple, change the game so that lore ending etc will be made solo content, for example
SWTOR has started with solo flashpoints, means that you can do solo things thats normally 5 man
and that is for pushing storyline onwards and does not have to be raiding

That accomplishes the difference that the raider people wants, they get their super raids with bosses
that does not necessarily have to do with the end of the storline. There can be made other bosses
and there are, but they also combine with such events that the casual player wants to see.

So, separate the casual content, storylinbe content from the raid content and everyone will be happy.
The raider can do storyline and solo mode if he/she wants and still be able to raid and do hard modes etc
while the casual player can plodd around doing his/her stuff and continue with the storyline
and everyone is happy. no?

anyone find anything bad with my reasoning?

Woo. Lore ending. It's always just a few lines of badly written dialogue. If not seeing that on your screen hurts you, you have problems. You can google this stuff, you don't need to raid to see it. I've raided hardcore for 10+ years because I like the people I play with, the company, the atmosphere. Lore. LORE? Warcraft universe is one of the least interesting fantasy universes. Who cares which shallow character beefs it next?

[aziras]

To me Icecrown Citadel is the best example in the history of WoW of how to implement lore into a raid without leaving anyone out.

A number of components made this successful:

1) Various difficulties - allowing more types of players to experience the raid, but without making it trivial.
2) Gated access to the end boss - You could not get to LK if you had not done the 4 wings.
3) Tons of lore in Icecrown (and in the entire expansion) leading up to the raid instance - most of it soloable with a bit put into the levelling 5-mans.
4) 3 new 5-man instances released as part of the patch, giving non-raiders a feeling of "doing Icecrown Citadel" as well.
5) Once the first players completed the raid, a monument in Dalaran allowed everyone to experience the boss-kill cinematic.

Some might say that the last point is BS, but it is one of the cornerstones of an MMO. No players get to do everything (only a sad few individuals get close) and that is how it is meant to be. What Blizzard have done lately with turning each player into the centre of the universe is just against the DNA of MMOs. Players should slug it as footsoldiers, some undertaking daring missions and some even ascending to hero state. By combining that monument with the lore cinematic and triggering it off the completion of the raid it tells the story of "you were not there, here is how it went". MMOs are not meant to be 1st-person storytelling experiences.

In vanilla raiders used to gather up in Stormwind on raid night. One player would hand in the head of a dragon, and anyone in the town would get a buff for their upcoming raid. This sort of player-dynamic interaction between the world, other players, and the raiders makes up an MMO. I remember many players who would schedule their evening playing to start in the same fashion, because the buff given was also for lower level characters and gave a 2-hour massive boost to questing. Most players never killed Onyxia, let alone Nefarian, but they still got a feel for how other players did.

On the contrary, MoP was outright terrible on the lore part. Anyone who joined later never got to see the vale in the glorious part. Persistent and changing worlds are great for MMOs, but totally destroys the story-telling. A player never got to experience the progressive corruption in MoP and the uncovering of the fall of Garrosh, unless they played along from the beginning of MoP.

To wrap it back to the OP's point for casuals: Feeling that you are not at the forefront of the conflict as a casual is part of the MMO experience. The devs just need to make sure that there are mechanics in the game that tells you the story of the heroes that went to nuke the big baddie. And stop the BS elements of how each player is the second coming.

[Deleted]

You mean this:



Where you focus solely on the second part of the sentence but completely ignore the first? WoW can be played as a very casual game if that's what you are into.

While we are throwing out definitions let me hit you with one:



This tells us that there are a variety of differences between casual and hardcore. Time played is not the sole metric one uses to determine whether a person is a "hardcore" or "casual" gamer.

Your post didn't go unnoticed but I cannot really answer right now. Don't really have the time right now as I'd need to review the conversation to see if I fucked upsomewhere (which is entirely possible with how losely "casual" is being used in these discussion to describe ton of very different kinds of gamers) but I certainly appreciate your effort. I'll try to answer this asap.

[Amalisa]

First of all allow me to say that I am a casual player that enjoyes the AH game and earning gold etc.

Now... those who say that casual players should NOT have access to everything...
in some manner you are right, those who are interested in raids and to excell should be rewarded
BUT.... the mistake Blizzard does is to have lore endings, ending of lore storytelling within the raids
it is a great mistake because those who raids are not often interested in the lore ending or the movies
they just want to get the loot and to excell at doing hard modes and harder content.

solution is simple, change the game so that lore ending etc will be made solo content, for example
SWTOR has started with solo flashpoints, means that you can do solo things thats normally 5 man
and that is for pushing storyline onwards and does not have to be raiding

That accomplishes the difference that the raider people wants, they get their super raids with bosses
that does not necessarily have to do with the end of the storline. There can be made other bosses
and there are, but they also combine with such events that the casual player wants to see.

So, separate the casual content, storylinbe content from the raid content and everyone will be happy.
The raider can do storyline and solo mode if he/she wants and still be able to raid and do hard modes etc
while the casual player can plodd around doing his/her stuff and continue with the storyline
and everyone is happy. no?

anyone find anything bad with my reasoning?

First off - I'm a hardcore gamer. I've been in top 200 guilds for the vast majority of the 9 years I've played WoW. I've even been in a few top 100 guilds.
That being said - I LOVE the lore. It's part of what keeps me playing. I also know that MANY MANY high end gamers love the lore. We can talk for hours on TS about lore, and sometimes that even gets in the way of raiding.

Secondly - I don't mean to be rude, as I was casual for about a year, and kinda am now - if you want a game that has lore all the way from start to finish and you can do it alone, play a single player game. Blizzard has said time and time again, over and over, at every Blizzcon and over and over on Twitter and the Forums - WoW is an MMO. Massive Multiplayer Online. The keyword is Multiplayer. The reason they put lore in endgame content is because they WANT people to play together.

The way they made it easier for more casual players to see that, is LFR, and LFG systems. This was added so that you, the casual solo player, can queue up, get a PuG and see the endgame content, without the stress. It's like playing Civilization on beginner mode with no turn limit. It's easier, and you get to see the end to your story lines. You get to defeat Garrosh, cleans the Emerald Dream, and what have you. You aren't missing out on anything by not being hardcore.

TLDR - You can play this game however you like that's the point of an RPG. Blizzard has stated they want people to play together as it IS an MMO; But all types of people like lore, and LFR (while not always the best people) is a great way to see endgame content, and not have to be a hardcore raider.

Happy gaming everyone!

[Galax]

To me Icecrown Citadel is the best example in the history of WoW of how to implement lore into a raid without leaving anyone out.

A number of components made this successful:

1) Various difficulties - allowing more types of players to experience the raid, but without making it trivial.
2) Gated access to the end boss - You could not get to LK if you had not done the 4 wings.
3) Tons of lore in Icecrown (and in the entire expansion) leading up to the raid instance - most of it soloable with a bit put into the levelling 5-mans.
4) 3 new 5-man instances released as part of the patch, giving non-raiders a feeling of "doing Icecrown Citadel" as well.
5) Once the first players completed the raid, a monument in Dalaran allowed everyone to experience the boss-kill cinematic.

While all of those are cool compromises, and I feel like your points are grounded in reality, unfortunately there aren't enough compromises in the world to compensate for the loss of unique content that having various difficulties brought. If you break down all the waxing nostalgic, there's one common thing that people lament, and that's the fact that the highest end content is recycled over and over again.

To wrap it back to the OP's point for casuals: Feeling that you are not at the forefront of the conflict as a casual is part of the MMO experience. The devs just need to make sure that there are mechanics in the game that tells you the story of the heroes that went to nuke the big baddie. And stop the BS elements of how each player is the second coming.

I agree, but I don't think that the lore should be made available to everyone - just those who can complete the content.

[oxyzz]

Why do everyone confuse casual with "i dont raid or do mythics".

Casual (to me at least) is someone that does not play alot. I play twice a week, one of those days are raid days were we clear HC then progress on mythic. The other day is for mythic+/farming/achivements etc etc.

If you dont enter raids, thats your problem. It does not mean you are casual, just that you cant bother with pugs or join a raiding guild.

[Deleted]

Disagree with you. 10 years ago I was in my 30s and had way more free time. I don't play mobile games and so don't know what that allusion is about, but for me, being in my 40s now, I just don't have time. I want to see the story. I am fine with LFR and LFD enabling me to do that. Honestly, if this game didn't cater to casuals, you probably wouldn't have the game. I would guess they are the vast majority of the player base.

I don't want things to come easy, but they have to be ACCESSIBLE. That is the key word. Gating stuff behind content only the top 20% can do is why people complain so much. I don't care that probably 80% of my xpac money went to making content for the top 5% of players as long as I get access to the story.

Exactly. Just like the 30 essences and 2 more questitems from EN which had to be farmed from normal or higher difficulty - why does this matter? You will still be spending time doing the questline, even in LFR, and they could even make different drop rates for different difficulties - so you get quest items at a rate of 100% in mythic, 75% in heroic, 50% in normal and 25% in LFR. So if you run an easy mode raid, then you take longer (especially since they also unlock LFR wings later than the rest).

This would be a perfect solution. The only truly rare things in this game are the gladiator titles and mounts, and rewards from time-limited events like the pre-patch events before any new expansion. With everything else, people who can run harder content, get either better versions of some items, or get these things earlier than the rest. Completely locking out questlines from LFR is bullshit.

Edit: With the current situation, I have the impression that the devs have to justify the time spent on developing the LFD tool to some accountaints, and the participation in that tool is the metric which they use. Naturally, they would then add incentives to boost the participation rate, like mythic dungeons only accessible via the tool (though we already have had hard dungeons in automatic matchmaking before, and things were fine), like excluding quests from LFR, like putting heirlooms only in dungeons and raid versions which cannot be accessed by automatic matchmaking. To me this looks like their tool is underused in terms to the KPIs set by the accountaints, and they have to get more people into it so they can check it off as a success.

[Deleted]

Being casual isn't a bad thing, for the first time since Cata (maybe Wrath?) I'm not actively raiding myself.

The issue is bad players make up the largest percentage and give everyone else a bad name.

[Usagi Senshi]

Why do everyone confuse casual with "i dont raid or do mythics".

Casual (to me at least) is someone that does not play alot. I play twice a week, one of those days are raid days were we clear HC then progress on mythic. The other day is for mythic+/farming/achivements etc etc.

If you dont enter raids, thats your problem. It does not mean you are casual, just that you cant bother with pugs or join a raiding guild.

Yeah, people always assume what a casual is and get it wrong a good majority of the time. It happens on many other forums as well.

After raiding for 9 years, I got tired of it and just do LFR, PVP, and WQs now, but I am not a casual as I still play for 8+ hours straight some days and do some M+ (haven't gone beyond 6 yet however :/) deals.

I could raid if I wanted to though and even had a couple offers but eh, I like what I'm doing now.

[Nayami]

Being casual isn't a bad thing, for the first time since Cata (maybe Wrath?) I'm not actively raiding myself.

The issue is bad players make up the largest percentage and give everyone else a bad name.

I'm in the same boat. I'm a casual player (by casual I mean I don't spend tons of hours on the game) but I still pug raids for Normal/Heroic raids and I pug Mythic+ dungeons. I haven't been in a guild since Cata. It was fun being in a guild, you make new friends, you have good laughs and you get to raid on the highest difficulty, but having to schedule my days/nights around a game was just too much for me.

Nowadays I raid whenever I feel like it instead of being forced to log in during nights. I am much happier now.

[Glorious Leader]

Yeah, people always assume what a casual is and get it wrong a good majority of the time. It happens on many other forums as well.

After raiding for 9 years, I got tired of it and just do LFR, PVP, and WQs now, but I am not a casual as I still play for 8+ hours straight some days and do some M+ (haven't gone beyond 6 yet however :/) deals.

I could raid if I wanted to though and even had a couple offers but eh, I like what I'm doing now.

If tmmrw lets say your gf called and wanted to spend the entire day with you would you skip wow fkr that? If your friends called tk get hammered would you skip wow forbthat? Would you join a softball league knowing that it would cut into yout play time? If the above answer tk any of these is yes you are a casual player. Time allotted does not make one casual or not. Commitment does.