Overall, was Survival a failure?

[Bepples]

Melee, range, heal or tank has absolutely nothing to do with it, performance is everything.

Didn't bother to read the rest of your post because this point was dumb so I'm going to safely assume the rest of your post was just as dumb.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7

MM outperformed Survival throughout T17. Survival still had more players.

It takes a much more serious gap in performance to get the difference in number of parses you are getting right now in Emerald Nightmare. See: difference between Survival and BM in BRF, Survival's lack of players in HFC. BM is only slightly ahead in score in EN, but is massively ahead in number of parses. And that's with BM being considered one of the worst-designed specs in the game.

Complaints about Survival on official forums overwhelmingly state "melee" as the primary issue.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...9718061?page=1

Arguing that being melee has nothing to do with it is desperate denial.

I only play as survival on my hunter. Love that its a melee spec. Nothing wrong with a class that has both melee and ranged specs. Shamans have Ele and Enhance and thats worked for years.

The reason why your argument is dumb is right there in your post. It's worked for Shamans and Druids because they have always been that way. Hunters have always been Ranged only. Introducing a melee spec is like selling ice to an Eskimo: it's an unwelcome concept to most hunters. If they wanted to play melee, they would have picked a class like Shamans or Druids with melee/ranged specs.

When your argument against it is "why play melee when you can play ranged" ill say "why play ranged when you can play melee" its a dumb argument.

Ranged is historically more popular, and largely easier since you don't have to deal with congestion for mechanics and boss movement. So, actually, your argument is the one that is dumb.

I specifically swapped to my hunter for SV in legion.

Even more proof that Survival in Legion was made for people who weren't Hunter mains to begin with. Veterans got fucked in favour of new players. Too bad they didn't appeal to very many new players in general, according to the number of people maining Survival.

[Volitar]

I would consider it a pretty big flop. Most people haven't even bothered trying it. The number of people maining it or have it as a mainspec on their alts is staggeringly low.

I just don't understand why it was even made. They murdered any fun on unique things about survival in WoD and then reworked the spec because it was ass, but they made it ass.

[Kissthebaby]

I said about 100 times on the survival feedback thread during beta that it will be the least played spec in the game and we all knew it would happen but they just didn't care. Although there r some things survival is very good at that people don't even realize because no one plays the spec. Overall it's just not good and honestly wasn't tested enough, seems like it was just thrown together very quickly and this is what we are left with. Hunter that is also melee, that's what everyone wanted right? False.

[Spiral Mage]

I'm kind of surprised this thread is still active.

Reading over some of the pages casually, there isn't alot of objective discussion going on here, so is there really a point to it?

[Deleted]

Didn't bother to read the rest of your post because this point was dumb so I'm going to safely assume the rest of your post was just as dumb.

Then shut the fup. Wow..

The reason why your argument is dumb is right there in your post. It's worked for Shamans and Druids because they have always been that way. Hunters have always been Ranged only. Introducing a melee spec is like selling ice to an Eskimo: it's an unwelcome concept to most hunters. If they wanted to play melee, they would have picked a class like Shamans or Druids with melee/ranged specs.



Ranged is historically more popular, and largely easier since you don't have to deal with congestion for mechanics and boss movement. So, actually, your argument is the one that is dumb.



Even more proof that Survival in Legion was made for people who weren't Hunter mains to begin with. Veterans got fucked in favour of new players. Too bad they didn't appeal to very many new players in general, according to the number of people maining Survival.

You are beyond help, oh my god.
It might be true that *you* care about whether a spec is ranged or melee, but that doesn't mean everyone cares about it. The Shaman and Druid population is proof of that. "It works for them, because they've always been like that"? Holy... you...

I'd switch to survival instantly right now if it performed better and would see some QoL changes. The weapon is somewhere around iLvL 900 and it has about ~21 points in it. It would be up to 27+ in mere days.

The only reason why I'm not switching is because I have absolutely *nothing* to gain from playing survival right now. Literally everything survival does, MM does equally well - even single target. It being melee has nothing to do with it.

You are so salty that your "main spec" got changed, it's unbelievable.
And MM didn't outperform SV during T17 as much as it does now, SV was extremely useful. It was arguably better during certain bosses and much easier to play too.

As for your stupid logs, care to explain why Frost and Arcane is so low? They are ranged specs, just like Fire.... guess what? They don't perform as well, so barely anyone plays them.
Also, we are looking at 42k vs 7k parses @ BRF... so wth, that's abyssmal too for a 75th percentile statistic
And how about we look @ HFC??
SV is nearly broken right now, the theme and style is likeable, just like some people think BMs theme and style is cool. The gameplay however is annoying, mainly because of MB spam and it's high amount of stacks - and it has basically no use right now. Traps are not needed currently and in 7.1.5 we might get them back as ranged.
The AoE cleave isn't better than MMs or BMs. The ST damage is there but doesn't equalize the other, lacking, aspects enough.

I'd like it if Kissthebaby could actually point out the things SV is good at right now and he believes to exist, because I couldn't find any that would make me choose it over MM (just like I can't find a use for BM tbh). Unless you can win the Legendary lottery.

[Bepples]

"It works for them, because they've always been like that"? Holy... you...

Not sure why you think that's shocking, especially since you failed to provide a counter-argument. People who play Shaman or Druid are obviously more open to the idea of a melee spec because there always has been one there. Hunters have always been ranged, so people came to the class expecting to play a ranged class (i.e. people who wanted to consider melee did not pick hunters), so you have a group that disproportionately favours ranged, i.e. pretty much the worst possible group to try to sell a melee spec to. And this shows in the logs, too; people are more willing to switch between feral/balance or enhancement/elemental between tiers. Survival just got several buffs yet no significant rise in activity, and at this point Artifacts are starting to not be a valid excuse since people around since the start of Legion will now be at an artifact knowledge level that allows them to get most of the good traits really quickly.

The only reason why I'm not switching

Anecdote, therefore useless. Another "stop reading here" moment.

You are so salty that your "main spec" got changed, it's unbelievable.

How is it at all unbelievable that people are salty that their favourite spec was literally taken away? That's a very natural and very logical reaction... particularly because they actively screwed over veteran hunters in favour of casual/alt hunters (and it didn't work anyway).

And MM didn't outperform SV during T17 as much as it does now, SV was extremely useful. It was arguably better during certain bosses and much easier to play too.

The difference in difficulty between MM and SV in BRF was negligible.
BM doesn't outperform SV by a huge amount right now, yet there are 13.5 times more BM parses now than SV parses. It's MM that is skyrocketing right now, and that's because it is both easy to play and capable of high DPS, while also pulling players from BM which is itself an unpopular spec right now (in case you haven't noticed; BM's playstyle sucks and people are well aware of it). SV is just that much more unpopular. The DPS difference alone does not account for it; you'd expect it to at least be closer to BM than it is right now. Especially when you consider the whole "new and exciting" factor: why didn't the revamp itself at least attract more casual players? Survival is getting smashed for normal & heroic parses too.

As for your stupid logs, care to explain why Frost and Arcane is so low? They are ranged specs, just like Fire.... guess what? They don't perform as well, so barely anyone plays them.

Mages are more competitive; especially since their class generally is capable of more damage output. Look at past tiers; smaller shifts in damage are capable of large shifts in activity. It probably also helps that all their specs have a pretty similar basic model so switching between them is easy.

Also, we are looking at 42k vs 7k parses @ BRF... so wth, that's abyssmal too for a 75th percentile statistic

Not even close to how bad it is now for SV. It's also at least close to the other trailing spec there, whereas now it's behind even BM.

And how about we look @ HFC??

Stalling the argument with obvious fallacy. SV was not remotely viable for raiding in HFC due to massive nerfs. It's a miracle there weren't 0 parses. Survival is not nearly at as much of a disadvantage as it was then.

SV is nearly broken right now, the theme and style is likeable, just like some people think BMs theme and style is cool. The gameplay however is annoying, mainly because of MB spam and it's high amount of stacks - and it has basically no use right now. Traps are not needed currently and in 7.1.5 we might get them back as ranged.

BM's gameplay is also largely unpopular and its damage is also lacking when compared to MM. It still has many times more players than Survival.

[Arrowstormen]

Survival was always my favorite spec (since WotLK), and I was pretty iffed that they made it terrible in WoD. Now that it is melee... it is still my favorite spec. Survival just have all the parts of the hunter fantasy I want, being melee for once is pretty fun, and the spec is interesting to play compared to BM and MM. Damage is just a numbers game that can go up and down, as a survival hunter I'm doing just fine, the reality here on the forums doesn't match the reality of when I actually play.

It doesn't matter to me that a lot of people don't play it, it's not surprising that a lot of people shy away from trying something new like melee hunter initially, especially when Demon Hunter is introduced at the same time. I figure that if they keep it competitive, it will eventually rise in popularity a bit, even if it will never be on the same level as BM and MM.

[Deleted]

The difference in difficulty between MM and SV in BRF was negligible.

So was the DPS output. The difference and usefulness between the two was all about how they delivered their damage.

Mages are more competitive; especially since their class generally is capable of more damage output. Look at past tiers; smaller shifts in damage are capable of large shifts in activity. It probably also helps that all their specs have a pretty similar basic model so switching between them is easy.

Makes no sense, you talk about how surival got played even though it was "weaker" but arcane/frost wasn't and isn't.
Hypocrite. Frost in BRF is basically Survival in Legion. SV and MM/BM was no different to how Frost was to Fire. The basic model and switch was easy for both classes.

Not even close to how bad it is now for SV. It's also at least close to the other trailing spec there, whereas now it's behind even BM.

Even BM performs better than SV. SV has nothing to show for in it's current rotation and design form. BM is at least very good in M+, SV however isn't, because slow alone as utility is really weak. Given the fact that people commit to 1 or 2 artifacts, it's more likely to choose the 2 better specs.

Stalling the argument with obvious fallacy. SV was not remotely viable for raiding in HFC due to massive nerfs. It's a miracle there weren't 0 parses. Survival is not nearly at as much of a disadvantage as it was then.

Doesn't matter, it explains why they are less parses for a spec. It's viability. Especially in Mythic.

BM's gameplay is also largely unpopular and its damage is also lacking when compared to MM. It still has many times more players than Survival.

What makes you say that, we have people vehemently defending BM and how cool it is here in the forum. That's just your opinion about BM, I'm pretty sure there are more than enough people that prefer BMs playstyle over MM. BM damage is not lacking either. It's delivered in a different way, just like it was in BRF.

You are not seeing the problem. It's not necessarily that SV is melee, it's the fact that people can't commit to three artifacts at the same time like they could before, whenever I didn't need specific burst, I'd switch to SV, because it's damage in BRF was extremely good, mobile, easy and also very good in AoE scenarios. Blackhand is/was a good example.

Introducing the new SV at a time where you have to *choose* a spec for 90% of the content you do makes survival worse by default, because it's still a spec that's basically in alpha/beta status. It's incomplete, it's competitively broken as was SV during HFC. And we are seeing the same result. You can't even use SV in easy content properly (like HC or Mythic+0) right now, because stuff dies so fast, you can't even make use of your best AoE spell, FotE.

As if anyone would give a fuck whether they are melee or range during most of the difficult content right now. Especially in M+ I see nearly no reason to pick a range over a melee. Doesn't matter what affix. As a MM hunter, I find myself in melee range more often that not anyway, to not pull with barrage or sidewinders.

Anecdote, therefore useless. Another "stop reading here" moment.

The only thing you proof with these kind of statements is how ignorant and pathetic you are.

[jcf190]

I think they missed the opportunity to make it a tanking spec, instead of just melee dps.

[Geran]

Then shut the fup. Wow..




You are beyond help, oh my god.
It might be true that *you* care about whether a spec is ranged or melee, but that doesn't mean everyone cares about it. The Shaman and Druid population is proof of that. "It works for them, because they've always been like that"? Holy... you...

I'd switch to survival instantly right now if it performed better and would see some QoL changes. The weapon is somewhere around iLvL 900 and it has about ~21 points in it. It would be up to 27+ in mere days.

The only reason why I'm not switching is because I have absolutely *nothing* to gain from playing survival right now. Literally everything survival does, MM does equally well - even single target. It being melee has nothing to do with it.

You are so salty that your "main spec" got changed, it's unbelievable.
And MM didn't outperform SV during T17 as much as it does now, SV was extremely useful. It was arguably better during certain bosses and much easier to play too.

As for your stupid logs, care to explain why Frost and Arcane is so low? They are ranged specs, just like Fire.... guess what? They don't perform as well, so barely anyone plays them.
Also, we are looking at 42k vs 7k parses @ BRF... so wth, that's abyssmal too for a 75th percentile statistic
And how about we look @ HFC??
SV is nearly broken right now, the theme and style is likeable, just like some people think BMs theme and style is cool. The gameplay however is annoying, mainly because of MB spam and it's high amount of stacks - and it has basically no use right now. Traps are not needed currently and in 7.1.5 we might get them back as ranged.
The AoE cleave isn't better than MMs or BMs. The ST damage is there but doesn't equalize the other, lacking, aspects enough.

I'd like it if Kissthebaby could actually point out the things SV is good at right now and he believes to exist, because I couldn't find any that would make me choose it over MM (just like I can't find a use for BM tbh). Unless you can win the Legendary lottery.

You are the perfect example of mercenary player (nothing wrong with that), you play whatever is top in the moment.

[Arrowstormen]

I think they missed the opportunity to make it a tanking spec, instead of just melee dps.

Think BM makes more sense for tanking than Survival, spec-fantasy wise.

[Deleted]

Survival has a few problems, some actual problems some major game design problems

1. Its melee in a class with two good range specs.

This is reason enough to question anyone that plays survival. Range is simply better at almost everything besides mass CC / interrupting. They take less damage, they do more damage in a lot of cases (definitely in this case) and they have 100% up time on any target.

2. Ability bloat.

Yes, survival has too many abilities. This is partly due to the insane amount of abilities you can get through talents. Theres SO many abilities that carve and raptor strike are (were) redundant, tricking new players and annoying experienced ones. This has been buffed though, so now we just add more spells to our already finnicky spec

3. Mastery

our mastery does one thing for one ability (two if you count fury of the eagle). It RNG procs more mongoose bites. This means our mastery is totally useless for all of our traps and dots and every ability besides mongoose bite and fury of the eagle. Its VERY important for the fluidity of the spec, but not important at all for the dps of the spec

Thats some of my complaints / observations of the failures of survival.

STILL THOUGH, i love the spec in pvp and pve and play it whenever i can get away with it.

You do not know what you are talking about.

1. It does have a disadvantage of being a melee while there are x2 capable ranged specs.

2. There is no ability bloat though. Carve when talented into Butchery or Serpent Sting is a very Powerful AE. Butchery when lined up with Aspect of the Eagle weaved in between Mongoose Bite into Fury of the Eagle is the most powerful AE in game alongside sindragosa's breath.

Raptor strike offers an alternate playstyle via Way of mok nathal.

3. Mastery is not the be all and end all for many other specs. It simply allows for more mongoose bite procs, which when sufficiently geared like me and spec'd into snake hunter fishing for mongoose bite is a non issue.

The problem on these forums including the guide up on icyveins by azerothian is the majority of you guys don't know what you're talking about - mainly because you haven't played the spec and invested sufficient time into.

I mained it from the get go and am so happy with the dps, utility and overall feel of the spec.

MM is not fluid it is not a nice experience and BM is brain dead simple.

The ranged specs have far more issues than this melee one.

[threads]

I think they missed the opportunity to make it a tanking spec, instead of just melee dps.

cant tell anymore if people are really thinking a hunter TANK is a good idea or if they're just trying to evolve the meme spec further.

[jcf190]

cant tell anymore if people are really thinking a hunter TANK is a good idea or if they're just trying to evolve the meme spec further.

Why wouldn't it be a good idea if it was executed properly? They literally gutted the spec and reworked it from the ground up. It would have been the perfect time to redefine the spec further instead of adding another mediocore dps spec.

[Kwaai]

Why wouldn't it be a good idea if it was executed properly? They literally gutted the spec and reworked it from the ground up. It would have been the perfect time to redefine the spec further instead of adding another mediocore dps spec.

Because the people who rolled hunter wanted to dps, not tank. To go from ranged dps to melee dps is silly, but ranged dps to tank is idiotic.

[ColbaneX]

You do not know what you are talking about.

1. It does have a disadvantage of being a melee while there are x2 capable ranged specs.

2. There is no ability bloat though. Carve when talented into Butchery or Serpent Sting is a very Powerful AE. Butchery when lined up with Aspect of the Eagle weaved in between Mongoose Bite into Fury of the Eagle is the most powerful AE in game alongside sindragosa's breath.

Raptor strike offers an alternate playstyle via Way of mok nathal.

3. Mastery is not the be all and end all for many other specs. It simply allows for more mongoose bite procs, which when sufficiently geared like me and spec'd into snake hunter fishing for mongoose bite is a non issue.

The problem on these forums including the guide up on icyveins by azerothian is the majority of you guys don't know what you're talking about - mainly because you haven't played the spec and invested sufficient time into.

I mained it from the get go and am so happy with the dps, utility and overall feel of the spec.

MM is not fluid it is not a nice experience and BM is brain dead simple.

The ranged specs have far more issues than this melee one.

^ This guy gets it. SV parses higher on single target(especially on burst) making them great priority target dps, their aoe got much better with the recent buffs, and generally they have a more fun playstyle(to me, so objectivity isn't implicit in this one) than BM and MM. The spec is fine, the only thing keeping it down is it doesn't offer the utility other melee specs have. If you can have damage, or damage AND utility, you go with damage and utility every time.

[Deleted]

I started playing hunter as a range.

Played hunter as a range for 9 years.

Want to continue playing as a range.

If survival ever gets the best specc by far then I'm gonna quit playing hunter.

[Yhcti]

The expansion has only just begone. I've literally this weekend tried out Survival to see if I liked it, I actually love it. I went as far as ditching any AP I had spare for my MM/BM and putting them all into Survival, so it's now level 18 and I prefer it. Dungeon wise it isn't AMAZING for AoE but I can still clear 500k-750k+ dps on trash packs and burst 400-500k on boss fights, and he's only Ilvl 818.

For PvP it's pretty amazing.. I did some 2v2 and we went 14-1, I did some random BG's and averaged 5 deaths a game with 20+ kills.

Overall I love it and look forward to any buffs it gets as it's obviously very under-represented in PvE (though it's the majority in PvP)

to the people saying we've never wanted a melee hunter? that's bullshit. we've always wanted a melee hunter. People are far too quick to complain about things these days, it's becoming quite a whiney world, everywhere I go, everywhere I read, someone is complaining about something so pathetic. Don't like melee? don't play survival. survival becomes best spec? boohoo. MM is our best spec and I can't stand it, but I still played it. I then took the nerf and went survival as I couldn't stand MM anymore. Do I whine about my dps? no, coz I chose to play a gimp spec.

[vindicatorx]

To me it was a huge flop I played it long enough to realize it's just a really awful idea. I tried to throw the spear away that is when I found out artifacts can't be destroyed.

[bloodmoth13]

The spec isnt a failure, its well designed, gives hunters another niche, has an incredibly strong thematic, a unique niche as a melee spec with a pet that uses spears.

The design was good, the themes were good, its a good spec.

Its problems are a few, for 1, most players that picked up a hunter wanted to play an archer. I personally think that we just need more archer specs on other classes as having a single class have the monopoly on 3 weapon types seems stupid to me. 2, we have a ton of melee already and a brand new class added to the game, meaning that there will be far less spots as it already stands for ranged players to go melee. 3, hunter player base is precious and hates change.

Next expansion i imagine people wont have a problem with it any more, i still think that they should have turned a rogue spec into a ranged spec alongside the survival change though