Should blizzard just bring back Reforging?

[darkwarrior42]

They aren't valuable when you have reforging.
Because anything not optimal is something you get rid of as much as you can.
Simple as that.
If getting rid of one stat in favour of another is simple decision, something you just do.
'Then the other stat is not valuable, fact.

So everything is black and white, and there is no room for any solution that puts choice back into the hands of the players?
Optimal is optimal, whether or not reforging exists. Whether or not reforging exists, choosing what to do with a piece of gear is easy.
I sim my character, I play around with talents, and I get stat weights. I punch those into Pawn.
If the new piece is higher, I put it on. If the new piece is lower, it goes away.
All reforging does is make it more likely for higher level pieces to be valuable.

I am confused by what you want. You oppose reforging because... it doesn't involve choice? But you're okay with player gear not involving choice for any other reason, apparently.

If secondary stats were closer, there would still be an ideal setup. Either there will be meaningful difference between the stats, in which case one set will be preferred or superior, or there is no meaningful difference, in which case they might as well not exist.

I didn't say it was a simple task.
As blizzard even said themselves, another long-term gripe deemed "hard" may actually have a solution.
The backpack size.

The backpack was a problem for technical reasons. The secondary stats are difficult because it is very difficult to have the stats be different, interact meaningfully with the character, yet be so close in value that a higher level piece is an upgrade regardless of secondary stat pairing. They are completely different.

I fully realize they want to look at the stats and try to fix them, so that they're more even, but I don't expect that to work. I expect they'll solve most of the current problems, and create new disparities in their place.

Because despite your dismissal of reforging having "no choice", if the secondary stats were actually equal enough that higher ilvl was always better?
If Blizzard actually "fixes" the problem?
The result is the same situation you'd have with reforging: higher ilvl is always better.
But with reforging, you could get the stats you like (since if they're that well balanced, the ones you prefer would be just as good).
Without reforging, you just take the higher ilvl piece and call it a day.
No choice, no option, just take the upgrade and move on.
So much more of a choice than reforging.
Edit: And with reforging, if Blizzard fails to fix the problem, we're simply in a better place than we are now. Either way, it's superior.

[Viradiance]

They removed all the braindead caps that made Reforging unfun: Haste breakpoints, hit and expertise. Reforging now has the potential to be *really damn interesting* but it's not a thing. I'd actually enjoy fiddling with my haste and crit and stuff until I got to the point where my rotation felt as fluid as I liked it. Or even just stupid shit like reforging to 60% haste to fuck around with in easy content for fun. Kinda just a damn shame.

[Lynix]

Or just balance stats so that 1 stat isn't all powerful to the point that sacrificing it isn't an option.

[Cthulhu 2020]

90% of reforging would just be reforging from your worst stat to your best stat.

The other 10% would be classes hitting certain haste break points, then reforging to other stats.

It's boring, and the only reason it was a thing was to allow people to alter their stats into and out of hit and expertise. If you had too much of either of those stats, it was "wasted" stats, and if you had too little then well you lost dps.

Hit and expertise no longer being a thing removed the necessity of reforging, and Blizzard's original reason for it ever being a thing at all.

[TheWorkingTitle]

no fuck reforging that shit is just extra and isnt a good addition for the casual/mainstream audience that blizzard is trying to cater to. This game has enough 3rd party crap to need more

If you had even a junior-high level mathematical foundation, figuring out how to reforge properly was elementary. Sure it took a little time to napkin math it, or maybe you just did it through trial and error--but shouldn't customizing and min/max'ing your character take a bit of time?

It really wasn't that bad. The gearing process plataeus at a few spots currently and some specs have a very difficult time in finding upgrades (due to secondary stats outweighing primary stats) and so reforging would do a great deal in smoothing that gearing process, ultimately allowing you to equip that ilvl upgrade after you re-jigger it through reforging instead of banking that piece with the rest of the non-optimal secondary stat pieces.

[Coffeexbean]

If you had even a junior-high level mathematical foundation, figuring out how to reforge properly was elementary. Sure it took a little time to napkin math it, or maybe you just did it through trial and error--but shouldn't customizing and min/max'ing your character take a bit of time?

It really wasn't that bad. The gearing process plataeus at a few spots currently and some specs have a very difficult time in finding upgrades (due to secondary stats outweighing primary stats) and so reforging would do a great deal in smoothing that gearing process, ultimately allowing you to equip that ilvl upgrade after you re-jigger it through reforging instead of banking that piece with the rest of the non-optimal secondary stat pieces.

but is it fun for the majority of the playerbase to do that and would they figure it out themselves? no everyone would go to the first 3rd party site to do it for them

[Himora]

Blizzard should bring back alot of things, mostly Blizzard North.

[TofuBandita]

I really don't care if reforging would just be shifting the least desirable secondary stat to the most desired stat, because the combination of crappy gear itemisation, and the rng of what gear drops, gives me the shits.

So yeah. I'd like reforging back.

[TheWorkingTitle]

but is it fun for the majority of the playerbase to do that and would they figure it out themselves? no everyone would go to the first 3rd party site to do it for them

It should be optional. Are you fine equipping a higher ilvl piece of gear with subpar secondary stats? If the answer is yes, you don't need to reforge it.

Do you want to min/max your character one extra step further? Try out reforging.

The argument about 3rd party sites is bunk, because the game is filled with addons and the like. One more potential addon or 3rd party site isn't the end of the world to min/max your character to its fullest (despite a 3rd party site NOT being necessary to reforge properly as I've already mentioned).

[Deleted]

So everything is black and white, and there is no room for any solution that puts choice back into the hands of the players?
Optimal is optimal, whether or not reforging exists. Whether or not reforging exists, choosing what to do with a piece of gear is easy.
I sim my character, I play around with talents, and I get stat weights. I punch those into Pawn.
If the new piece is higher, I put it on. If the new piece is lower, it goes away.
All reforging does is make it more likely for higher level pieces to be valuable.

I am confused by what you want. You oppose reforging because... it doesn't involve choice? But you're okay with player gear not involving choice for any other reason, apparently.

If secondary stats were closer, there would still be an ideal setup. Either there will be meaningful difference between the stats, in which case one set will be preferred or superior, or there is no meaningful difference, in which case they might as well not exist.



The backpack was a problem for technical reasons. The secondary stats are difficult because it is very difficult to have the stats be different, interact meaningfully with the character, yet be so close in value that a higher level piece is an upgrade regardless of secondary stat pairing. They are completely different.

I fully realize they want to look at the stats and try to fix them, so that they're more even, but I don't expect that to work. I expect they'll solve most of the current problems, and create new disparities in their place.

Because despite your dismissal of reforging having "no choice", if the secondary stats were actually equal enough that higher ilvl was always better?
If Blizzard actually "fixes" the problem?
The result is the same situation you'd have with reforging: higher ilvl is always better.
But with reforging, you could get the stats you like (since if they're that well balanced, the ones you prefer would be just as good).
Without reforging, you just take the higher ilvl piece and call it a day.
No choice, no option, just take the upgrade and move on.
So much more of a choice than reforging.
Edit: And with reforging, if Blizzard fails to fix the problem, we're simply in a better place than we are now. Either way, it's superior.

Reforging isn't superior. It's a bandaid that avoids fixing the real issue. Why are you so fixated on MoP model and aren't looking at WoD model where ilvl was mostly an upgrade?

We don't need stats to be more even. We need the item budged and scaling of stats fixed. You are pigeonholing itemlevel as superior without even looking at alternatives. Ideally we would want a situation where 10 itemlevels is an upgrade but switching from Haste/Mastery to Crit/Haste is an upgrade as well. One doesn't invalidate the other (again look at WoD).

Reforging isn't the solution what we need or deserve. It's the solution that people with lack of understanding towards current state want.

[plato13]

i dont think reforging would fit into the current game. it was used for things like hitting your hit and expertise cap w/o wasting alot of stats. in todays game you would just reforge everything into your best stat.

[Destructus]

That way they dont have to balance the stats as much. I loved reforging. People dont equip new gear now until they sim it, but if we had that you would be able to tell if something was an upgrade a lot easier. Anything that was maybe even +10 item levels would be an upgrade 90% of the time.

Reforging would be a good way to make slots that have no primary stats more appealing when they have bad stat combos. Only enable it for necklaces and rings so a higher ilvl piece can actually be an upgrade.

[ComputerNerd]

So everything is black and white, and there is no room for any solution that puts choice back into the hands of the players?
Optimal is optimal, whether or not reforging exists. Whether or not reforging exists, choosing what to do with a piece of gear is easy.
I sim my character, I play around with talents, and I get stat weights. I punch those into Pawn.
If the new piece is higher, I put it on. If the new piece is lower, it goes away.
All reforging does is make it more likely for higher level pieces to be valuable.

I am confused by what you want. You oppose reforging because... it doesn't involve choice? But you're okay with player gear not involving choice for any other reason, apparently.

If secondary stats were closer, there would still be an ideal setup. Either there will be meaningful difference between the stats, in which case one set will be preferred or superior, or there is no meaningful difference, in which case they might as well not exist.



The backpack was a problem for technical reasons. The secondary stats are difficult because it is very difficult to have the stats be different, interact meaningfully with the character, yet be so close in value that a higher level piece is an upgrade regardless of secondary stat pairing. They are completely different.

I fully realize they want to look at the stats and try to fix them, so that they're more even, but I don't expect that to work. I expect they'll solve most of the current problems, and create new disparities in their place.

Because despite your dismissal of reforging having "no choice", if the secondary stats were actually equal enough that higher ilvl was always better?
If Blizzard actually "fixes" the problem?
The result is the same situation you'd have with reforging: higher ilvl is always better.
But with reforging, you could get the stats you like (since if they're that well balanced, the ones you prefer would be just as good).
Without reforging, you just take the higher ilvl piece and call it a day.
No choice, no option, just take the upgrade and move on.
So much more of a choice than reforging.
Edit: And with reforging, if Blizzard fails to fix the problem, we're simply in a better place than we are now. Either way, it's superior.

Stats being close together, and no reforging IS putting choice back into the hands of players.
Reforging is not, because there isn't a true choice.
There is simply a better one, reforging to the best stat.

Reforging would be a good way to make slots that have no primary stats more appealing when they have bad stat combos. Only enable it for necklaces and rings so a higher ilvl piece can actually be an upgrade.

And bringing the stats closer together avoids the need for that.

Reforging is a solution desperately seeking a problem to justify it.
You are willing to introduce or extend a problem to ensure it has relevance.

[darkwarrior42]

Stats being close together, and no reforging IS putting choice back into the hands of players.
Reforging is not, because there isn't a true choice.
There is simply a better one, reforging to the best stat.

The only possible way there would be a "true choice" would be if the stats were so close together that it made no difference which one you chose. There are two possibilities here:

1) That does not happen, in which case there is never a "true choice". There are always stats that are superior, and by extension items you want. Reforging does not make the best item any different, but it does make you feel less sad to get the worse options.
2) That does happen, in which case we have two further possibilities:
a) The stats no longer have any meaningful difference between them, in which case they might as well not exist.
b) The stats do have meaningful differences, but those differences are based solely on personal preference and style, in which case reforging allows you to further dedicate yourself to whichever style you prefer.

In none of those circumstances is reforging a bad thing, and in the only circumstance where there is any kind of "true choice", reforging helps to enable that choice.

I'm not dedicated to reforging coming back, I just don't think it's possible for Blizzard to get the secondary stats so closely balanced that I'd ever be willing to give up a good pairing of stats for a bad pairing on a regular basis. There are alternative solutions, besides just "balance the stats more closely":

-Blizzard tweaked how much secondary stat you gain with ilvl. This was done intentionally to give everyone a decent starting base (to avoid a situation similar to early Cata), and then give everyone a smaller amount of secondary stats with ilvl to avoid having absurdly high values of crit/haste/etc later on. This means that the difference in secondary stats between two different pieces of different ilvl is smaller than expected, making it more likely that we'll be willing to keep the lower level piece.
----Undoing this would fix this particular problem, though it would bring back the original problem. You could fix that by giving everyone a larger amount of the secondary attributes baseline, not tied to secondary stats, then reducing the amount of % we gain per stat point, but such a fix is well beyond the scope of a patch, an would need to wait for 8.0 at the least. (Picture gaining 1% haste from 500 or 600 haste rating, instead of 1% haste from 350 haste rating, but having 5-10% haste automatically. Same effect, without the weird secondary stat scaling.)
-Blizzard removed primary stats from jewelry. Adding them back would make it much harder to give up a piece 25 ilvls higher, because that much primary stat is almost always superior. (This happens somewhat with tanks, since giving up 25 ilvls on jewelry means giving up 25 ilvls of stamina.)
----I'm not entirely sure why the dropped the primary stats on jewelry in the first place, so I'm not sure what would be hurt by bringing them back.

*shrug* Both of those are major systemic changes that would largely correct the problem. I prefer Reforging either way, because I am a fan of customization (whether or not it constitutes a "true" choice, or simply mitigating poor RNG). However, Blizzard in general does not tend to favor customization any more than absolutely necessary, and I would be happy to exist without reforging if they can manage to fix the systems.

I just don't think that "better balanced secondary stats" is something they're capable of, or that it will fix the problem.

And to say that reforging takes choice away implies we have choice now, which is laughable. Either way you're taking the best piece, all reforging does to the equation is increase the odds that a higher ilvl piece is the better option.

[Bigbazz]

With gearing and itemisation in Legion I do think reforging would be a very effective solution, even if it genuinely wasn't needed in WOD.

i dont think reforging would fit into the current game. it was used for things like hitting your hit and expertise cap w/o wasting alot of stats. in todays game you would just reforge everything into your best stat.

Why is that an issue? If you have an item that is +15 ilvl but a downgrade because of wrong stats you just reforge one of the stats into your best stat (say 40-60% reforge) and maybe it's now a small upgrade. If your item already has the perfect stats then not only can you not reforge it into your favourite stats (because it already has them) but you simply don't need to.

It's a very effective solution for turning non-upgrades into maybe upgrades, the items that are already optimal are already optimal

[Deleted]

The only possible way there would be a "true choice" would be if the stats were so close together that it made no difference which one you chose.

This is false. Why are you trying to create a non-existing problem? Look at WoD gearing model. If scaling and item budget is handled properly then higher item level is an upgrade but having optimal stats is upgrade within the item level.

Reforging is just adding an unnecessary layer of complexity. Why are you so against better gear dropping?

[TofuBandita]

What would be the point of making stats closer in value other than making you care less what gear the rng gods give you? Doesn't that also lessen the differentiation between stats, making them less 'meaningful'? Why bother having separate stats at all?

I think it's far more interesting for secondary stats to actually be more powerful and less closer in value. To use them like dials for different builds. Possibly even being able to save Reforge builds might be interesting. You'd still have a bis to aim for, but in the meantime you'd be freed up to work with whatever gear you've been given. Say you were a Resto druid, you'd have your raiding build, then could switch to a mastery heavy build to give you more of an edge in Mythic+, and then another build to switch to Feral when you're out questing.

[Deleted]

Every time this type of thread comes up I say the same thing:

Reforging would be a great thing to integrate into crafting professions. We could have reforging "tokens" that can be crafted and sold. Could help breathe a bit more life into armour/weapon crafting professions and put them on a more equal long term footing with the likes of alchemy/enchanting/JC.