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  1. #1

    Spontaneous Appendages

    Does anyone know if it's been confirmed that blizzard will eventually stop the SA trinket from proccing SS?

    i've only heard rumours but it sounds inevitable sinec that makes the trinket a MUST HAVE for enh to have which then forces us to also have the BI trinket because they are good together.

  2. #2
    They probably won't. It's by no means a "must have" trinket for enh. It's good, but not so good that other trinkets don't compete with it. Some trinkets are actually quite a bit better, depending on your gear and stat distribution. The lower your ilvl/mastery/haste, the better SA is relative to other trinkets. As you get higher ilvl with more haste/mastery, SA starts falling behind other trinkets.

    It's probably BiS if you are under ~850 ilvl, but once you get above ~870/875, it moves towards the middle of the pack, because those extra procs it's generating just aren't as relevant when you are getting enough procs without it; I'd expect it to be garbage after ~900 ilvl with high haste/mastery.
    Last edited by asamu; 2016-11-04 at 06:56 AM.

  3. #3
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    Just remember, its only while the trinket is active that the appendages proc Stormbringer and outside of it proccing Stormbringer, the trinket isnt that great. There is still a decent element of RNG to factor in well.
    Theyve already done a trinket pass for 7.1, they MIGHT look at them again heading into ToV, but I think at this point its probably safe and they will have a good look at how trinkets perform in Nighthold because theyve been a hot mess for 7.0.
    Last edited by Murderdoll; 2016-11-05 at 12:01 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by asamu View Post
    They probably won't. It's by no means a "must have" trinket for enh. It's good, but not so good that other trinkets don't compete with it. Some trinkets are actually quite a bit better, depending on your gear and stat distribution. The lower your ilvl/mastery/haste, the better SA is relative to other trinkets. As you get higher ilvl with more haste/mastery, SA starts falling behind other trinkets.

    It's probably BiS if you are under ~850 ilvl, but once you get above ~870/875, it moves towards the middle of the pack, because those extra procs it's generating just aren't as relevant when you are getting enough procs without it; I'd expect it to be garbage after ~900 ilvl with high haste/mastery.
    This is in direct opposition to sims currently. At 874 ilvl BTI/SA has only gone up in value for my sims.

  5. #5
    i dont see how it constantly proccing makes procs wasted. 1st proc is always 25% more dmg, so constant proccing is ideal

  6. #6
    Yeah in theory what he says is righr but my SA gives me 6% mastery and after simming i lose about 9k damage wihtout it.
    Even with high mastery i dont think you can have too much mastery unless you have very very little haste then something like arcano crystal might be better since its a sttat stick for multiple stats including mastery

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by asamu View Post
    They probably won't. It's by no means a "must have" trinket for enh. It's good, but not so good that other trinkets don't compete with it. Some trinkets are actually quite a bit better, depending on your gear and stat distribution. The lower your ilvl/mastery/haste, the better SA is relative to other trinkets. As you get higher ilvl with more haste/mastery, SA starts falling behind other trinkets.

    It's probably BiS if you are under ~850 ilvl, but once you get above ~870/875, it moves towards the middle of the pack, because those extra procs it's generating just aren't as relevant when you are getting enough procs without it; I'd expect it to be garbage after ~900 ilvl with high haste/mastery.
    Can you please stop posting this misinformation in every thread. The better your gear gets, the higher value the Stormstrike procs become even if you waste more by extension, because hitting the point where you can chain cast is even more valuable due to the stats you now have. There is absolutely nothing to support SA getting weaker with gear (in fact, it's quite the opposite), and until you can provide evidence of that, it's conjecture that has no grounding.

  8. #8

  9. #9
    I continue to read that SA is 'must have' but I have also seen sim lists that place Bloodthirsty Inst 850 > Spon App 850. Is this actually the case? I ask because I have both and a 865 plaguehive (and a 865 eye of command as well). My conclusion from this forum was that BI 850 + PH 865 was the best combination. Any feedback?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by megatee View Post
    I continue to read that SA is 'must have' but I have also seen sim lists that place Bloodthirsty Inst 850 > Spon App 850. Is this actually the case? I ask because I have both and a 865 plaguehive (and a 865 eye of command as well). My conclusion from this forum was that BI 850 + PH 865 was the best combination. Any feedback?
    They are likely outdated lists that were generated before SA was implemented fully into SimC.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by megatee View Post
    I continue to read that SA is 'must have' but I have also seen sim lists that place Bloodthirsty Inst 850 > Spon App 850. Is this actually the case? I ask because I have both and a 865 plaguehive (and a 865 eye of command as well). My conclusion from this forum was that BI 850 + PH 865 was the best combination. Any feedback?
    If you sim it you'll likely find that your SA/BTI combo is higher than Plaguehive with either.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    Can you please stop posting this misinformation in every thread. The better your gear gets, the higher value the Stormstrike procs become even if you waste more by extension, because hitting the point where you can chain cast is even more valuable due to the stats you now have. There is absolutely nothing to support SA getting weaker with gear (in fact, it's quite the opposite), and until you can provide evidence of that, it's conjecture that has no grounding.
    It was based off of personal sims.

    Turns out, the simcraft version I was using was the 7.03 one. I had the 7.10 version installed, but hadn't replaced the one I usually used. Sim at ~426.5k with the BTI+Appendages vs 417.8k with BTI+arcanocrystal, and ~428k with Arcanocrystal+SA. That said, the gap between appendages SHOULD shrink as item level gets significantly higher, due to overlap with procs that would be generated anyway, and higher mastery reducing the relative value of stormstrike casts.
    Last edited by asamu; 2016-11-04 at 06:42 PM.

  13. #13
    beyond just sims if you look at the trinkets equipped on a lot of the highest records and warcraftlogs stats, it's basically pick 2 of of the following 4:

    appendages, boe world drop fan, memento, and bloodthirsty instinct
    Last edited by ryklin; 2016-11-06 at 07:50 AM.

  14. #14
    Is it best to refresh weapon buffs at the start of an appendages proc so you get max use of stormbringer or do you just keep normal rotation?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by asamu View Post
    It was based off of personal sims.

    Turns out, the simcraft version I was using was the 7.03 one. I had the 7.10 version installed, but hadn't replaced the one I usually used. Sim at ~426.5k with the BTI+Appendages vs 417.8k with BTI+arcanocrystal, and ~428k with Arcanocrystal+SA. That said, the gap between appendages SHOULD shrink as item level gets significantly higher, due to overlap with procs that would be generated anyway, and higher mastery reducing the relative value of stormstrike casts.
    Overlapping? I didn't quiet get what you mean by that what is Overlapping here? Mastery buffs our elemental damage on top of increasing proc chance of WF and SB so mastery's value will never be reduced in the way you're putting it

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Devious009 View Post
    Overlapping? I didn't quiet get what you mean by that what is Overlapping here? Mastery buffs our elemental damage on top of increasing proc chance of WF and SB so mastery's value will never be reduced in the way you're putting it
    He never said mastery's value will be reduced, he said value of stormstrike casts will be reduced.

    To put this ad absurdum:
    a] Imagine you have so much mastery that you have 100% chance to proc Stormbreaker. In that case, your stormstrike will be permanently up which makes SA proc useless.
    b] Imagine you have so much mastery that your lava lash actually hits harder than Stormstrike. You'd never use SS then would you.

    Now neither scenario will happen, what he was saying is that the more mastery you get, the less impact the SA proc will have, and SS compared to elemental spells will get weaker, or rather elemental spells get stronger while stormstrike does the same dmg. [You will still be using stormstrike as your main attack of course]

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by HTPRO View Post
    He never said mastery's value will be reduced, he said value of stormstrike casts will be reduced.

    To put this ad absurdum:
    a] Imagine you have so much mastery that you have 100% chance to proc Stormbreaker. In that case, your stormstrike will be permanently up which makes SA proc useless.
    b] Imagine you have so much mastery that your lava lash actually hits harder than Stormstrike. You'd never use SS then would you.

    Now neither scenario will happen, what he was saying is that the more mastery you get, the less impact the SA proc will have, and SS compared to elemental spells will get weaker, or rather elemental spells get stronger while stormstrike does the same dmg. [You will still be using stormstrike as your main attack of course]
    He was talking about as we get higher ilvl gear by nighthold SA's value will drop which is not necessarily the case because common sense dictates we're not gonna hit 100% mastery and as long as you are getting more agility with higher ilvl SS will always be your hardest hitting ability because we are always getting more agility than mastery on our gear.

    There is a point currently where mastery is very close in value to agility (and I've seen people even claim their sims say mastery is more valuable than agility for them) but this is the start of the expansion and we're low on secondary stats but once we get into NH we will probably see primary stats skyrocket in value. Blizzard did mention there were some changes coming to secondary Stat values so things can change

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Devious009 View Post
    He was talking about as we get higher ilvl gear by nighthold SA's value will drop which is not necessarily the case because common sense dictates we're not gonna hit 100% mastery and as long as you are getting more agility with higher ilvl SS will always be your hardest hitting ability because we are always getting more agility than mastery on our gear.

    There is a point currently where mastery is very close in value to agility (and I've seen people even claim their sims say mastery is more valuable than agility for them) but this is the start of the expansion and we're low on secondary stats but once we get into NH we will probably see primary stats skyrocket in value. Blizzard did mention there were some changes coming to secondary Stat values so things can change
    Actually, the other guy got it pretty much dead on. That said, you don't need 100% mastery for the value of the SA proc to diminish; just enough haste/mastery that you are getting consistent procs without it.

    Lets say you get a proc before you get the chance to use any of the SSs from your previous proc (Assuming you are running tempest). That 1st proc gave no benefit at all due to being overlapped by another proc. During the SA proc, this is actually fairly common if your mastery is high. Ideally, you'd be getting a proc about every 3 seconds. At some point between where Enh is at now, and that ideal, the SA proc's value will diminish enough for other trinkets to over-take it.

    While SA is currently the best trinket for Enh, it's not at all unlikely that some other trinket(s) will overtake it once secondary stats are high enough, it's just a question of when that will happen; I'd guess it will happen somewhere around the 900-915 ilvl range, unless the value of stats is changed before that point.

    Abilities affected by mastery are also affected by agility. More agility doesn't change the relative damage of the abilities. That point where mastery is higher weight than agility is when it is exceptionally low, because mastery gives a greater % increase to elemental damage than agility gives % increase to total damage.
    Last edited by asamu; 2016-11-07 at 08:45 AM.

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Devious009 View Post
    He was talking about as we get higher ilvl gear by nighthold SA's value will drop which is not necessarily the case because common sense dictates we're not gonna hit 100% mastery and as long as you are getting more agility with higher ilvl SS will always be your hardest hitting ability because we are always getting more agility than mastery on our gear.

    There is a point currently where mastery is very close in value to agility (and I've seen people even claim their sims say mastery is more valuable than agility for them) but this is the start of the expansion and we're low on secondary stats but once we get into NH we will probably see primary stats skyrocket in value. Blizzard did mention there were some changes coming to secondary Stat values so things can change
    Secondaries value per point will INCREASE with higher agility, not diminish. Mastery and haste will be much better, up to the the point when 150 mastrry gems beat the 200 agi gem.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Secondaries value per point will INCREASE with higher agility, not diminish. Mastery and haste will be much better, up to the the point when 150 mastrry gems beat the 200 agi gem.
    Where in my post did I say secondaries will diminish in value?

    unless the stat weight for a certain character says otherwise 200 agility will trump 150 mastery in all cases.

    like I said blizzard said they want to change how we evaluate secondary stats so that item level is relevant when choosing items without agility on them so we'll see

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by asamu View Post
    Actually, the other guy got it pretty much dead on. That said, you don't need 100% mastery for the value of the SA proc to diminish; just enough haste/mastery that you are getting consistent procs without it.
    as long as you do not have 100% proc chance for SB there will always be that small % that you do not proc SB whatever that % may be (be it 3, 4, or 5% as an example)

    Quote Originally Posted by asamu View Post
    Lets say you get a proc before you get the chance to use any of the SSs from your previous proc (Assuming you are running tempest). That 1st proc gave no benefit at all due to being overlapped by another proc. During the SA proc, this is actually fairly common if your mastery is high. Ideally, you'd be getting a proc about every 3 seconds. At some point between where Enh is at now, and that ideal, the SA proc's value will diminish enough for other trinkets to over-take it.
    Procs can be wasted and that can happen at both low and high levels of mastery, but that is RNG so Im not sure how that diminishes the trinket's value and I'll repeat what word up said .. hitting the point where you are chain casting SS is more valuable than losing SB procs so it doesn't matter really.

    Quote Originally Posted by asamu View Post
    While SA is currently the best trinket for Enh, it's not at all unlikely that some other trinket(s) will overtake it once secondary stats are high enough, it's just a question of when that will happen; I'd guess it will happen somewhere around the 900-915 ilvl range, unless the value of stats is changed before that point.

    Abilities affected by mastery are also affected by agility. More agility doesn't change the relative damage of the abilities. That point where mastery is higher weight than agility is when it is exceptionally low, because mastery gives a greater % increase to elemental damage than agility gives % increase to total damage.
    Im not sure why you are doing this comparison because 1) Agility will always be more valuable than mastery because it affects overall damage and mastery affects only elemental damage and 2) Agility and Mastery are not competing with each other in the first place so Im not sure why you would even compare them?
    Last edited by Devious009; 2016-11-08 at 05:21 AM.

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