Food for thought: Kara vs EN

[Sevyvia]

Kara follows the mentality of BC raids.

Simple mechanics but punishing if you mess up as opposed to the more current trend of excessive but not so punishing mechanics.

I try to keep the rose-tinted glasses off, but it does kind of feel like that is the direction design has gone in. Whenever I look up a relatively recent boss encounter, it feels like I'm positively buried in mechanic after mechanic after mechanic, while I recall many TBC bosses to be rather a lot simpler. Not all of them were horrifically punishing, though, but the ones that weren't were rightfully viewed as the ones the more casual guilds got up to, and then frequently no further.

But if I think back to TBC, really think back... I'm not sure they had significantly fewer mechanics, we just ended up dealing with the ones that mattered. I mean, I look up the Helya fight in ToV now and am showered in adds and their abilities, and it seems kind of overwhelming. But when it comes down to the actual raid, it won't be. I'm sure Shade of Akama's adds (not that that fight was hard or overwhelming) had abilities as well, but most of the time we didn't really care all that much.

So yeah, maybe things have evolved towards slightly more mechanics, but I actually don't think its as significant as its sometimes made out to be. If there is any change, it's really just that things were, for several expansions, generally a lot less punishing.

[Sylvaeres]

I think the funny part is that you're calling En easy when you can't clear mythic En with an 881 ilvl. Clearing content is always easy when you overgear it.

If you were following the thread instead of just posting your opinion to what I assume was the op, then you would understand we were discussing the difference of older wow mechanics vs modern ones. And we went off on a tangent talking about how difficult the raid was.

Can't clear? We're 5/7m? This week we'll likely clear out the other 2. Nice cheap shot, but once again, learn how to read please. I'm 875, as already stated. 2ndly, why on earth would I bother to follow your self-stated tangent and deviate from the topic of the thread, just so that your simple mind can keep up? "Hey, we were talking about something that didn't have much to do with the original topic, but you should sit and entertain it so that my brain can follow a one track conversation". Lol

[Deleted]

Kara is just gimmicky and overtuned. I loathed it back in TBC, and when I saw the return to karazhan trailer, I cringed, sighed, and stopped playing WoW for a few days.

I did it twice so far, mainly for Nightbane and the last 4 bosses. I can say, for me, it's probably the worst dungeon (lining up with the raid being one of the worst raids ever) I've ever had to do, and I hate the fact that they put such good gear in there, essentially forcing me to run it weekly in hopes of an upgrade.

I really can't wait for next tier, when Kara becomes irrelevant due to not having a mythic+ setting.

Tehehe... it has mythic+ in 7.2 though.

As for Kara, the instance/raid is probably the best in WoW so far. I'm just talking about how it looks and feels though, not about the insane amount of uninteresting trash or somewhat boring bosses.

2 corrections A) I have an 875 I level equipped and B) did it about 8 I lvls lower. I figured it was implied that I'm better geared than average when I'm speaking about Mythic EN. On another note, the content could be done at 845 and still be easy. The dungeon is in no way shape or form difficult at any gear level that can be acquired with a week of work

Eh, not so sure about that... the ~870+ DK tank I run Kara with gets *destroyed* on Nightbane whenever his +75% dmg thing is up - to the point where it was nigh impossible to clear if he doesn't get some lucky parries. That same tank can run +9 just fine and +10 if you ignore the timer.
Easy is something else.

[Deleted]

Blanket statements made by rose-tinted glasses lol

Actually what he said is very true.
TBC era dungeons were all about control. No you cannot finish your cast while standing in fire, you will be 100% attention to it or you drop like a fly. Adds could destroy anything non tank in seconds compared to now. Patrols everywhere which made you pay attention.
Mechanics were simpler, but do them wrong and pay the price instantly.

[Actarius]

Tehehe... it has mythic+ in 7.2 though.

As for Kara, the instance/raid is probably the best in WoW so far. I'm just talking about how it looks and feels though, not about the insane amount of uninteresting trash or somewhat boring bosses.

I was very sad when I saw that. I'm at BlizzCon with my guild and half of them made jokes about how I'm quitting in 7.2 now that Kara will be a thing I have to do all the time

[fangless]

I try to keep the rose-tinted glasses off, but it does kind of feel like that is the direction design has gone in. Whenever I look up a relatively recent boss encounter, it feels like I'm positively buried in mechanic after mechanic after mechanic, while I recall many TBC bosses to be rather a lot simpler. Not all of them were horrifically punishing, though, but the ones that weren't were rightfully viewed as the ones the more casual guilds got up to, and then frequently no further.

But if I think back to TBC, really think back... I'm not sure they had significantly fewer mechanics, we just ended up dealing with the ones that mattered. I mean, I look up the Helya fight in ToV now and am showered in adds and their abilities, and it seems kind of overwhelming. But when it comes down to the actual raid, it won't be. I'm sure Shade of Akama's adds (not that that fight was hard or overwhelming) had abilities as well, but most of the time we didn't really care all that much.

So yeah, maybe things have evolved towards slightly more mechanics, but I actually don't think its as significant as its sometimes made out to be. If there is any change, it's really just that things were, for several expansions, generally a lot less punishing.

We also had less tools in BC, compared to now. Tanks nowadays can just exist, and aoe pull rooms of trash with no threat of losing threat. DPS have room clearing aoe, multiple survival buttons, etc.

Fights in BC had their complexities as well, but character's toolsets were much less all encompassing.

[Banard]

We also had less tools in BC, compared to now. Tanks nowadays can just exist, and aoe pull rooms of trash with no threat of losing threat. DPS have room clearing aoe, multiple survival buttons, etc.

Fights in BC had their complexities as well, but character's toolsets were much less all encompassing.

part of it...but almost every boss is now is a "Lady Vash" or "Kael" . I think blizzard needs to go back to the simple design to see how people thing about it...a raid where bosses have few mechanics but very punishing mechanics with a end boss that is brutal.

[Christhammer]

Still enjoy EN after clearing NM/HC and soon Mythic several times. Done Kara once and will not do it again. Boring and pointless.

[Deleted]

Emerald Nightmare is a garbage raid. Everything is red, uninspired and ugly.

[Seikha]

part of it...but almost every boss is now is a "Lady Vash" or "Kael" . I think blizzard needs to go back to the simple design to see how people thing about it...a raid where bosses have few mechanics but very punishing mechanics with a end boss that is brutal.

Ursoc says hi o/

[Banard]

Ursoc says hi o/

Yes and no....simple yes but i hate the "rage timer checks"....but overall that is a perfect example.

[Akka]

Kara exemplifies the idea that less complex encounters can be equally punishing to a group of smaller players, if not moreso, than a raid scenario can.

Want to highlight this, because :

1) Needlessly convoluted fights has been something of a pet peeve to me, and it has grown to frankly annoying since at least WoD. I prefer a strongly thematic fight built around a few important elements, to the swarm of disjointed mechanics which end up feeling more like a constant background noise.

2) It's one of the main (bad) arguments about old fights that they were easy "because they were simplistic". It seems that many people can't manage to understand that what makes a fight hard is mainly the tuning, not the number of abilities.

[Littlepwny]

I really can't wait for next tier, when Kara becomes irrelevant due to not having a mythic+ setting.

I have some very bad news for you friend...

[Actarius]

I have some very bad news for you friend...

I've already responded to the inclusion of Kara in mythic+

I won't be doing it

[aziras]

The raid difficulty scales have totally messed up mechanics difficulty. Because they need to do tourist-mode versions, normal version, heroic version, and then the final hard mythic version the mechanics do not feel brutal. By the time guilds get to the hard tune, they have already gotten a soft intro to the mechanic.
The reason why vanilla and TBC mechanics seemed more punishing is because they only had one difficulty. Most of them were tuned to be brutal if you walked in with less than optimal previous tier gear. If you walked into BWL without T1 gear you got demolished on Razorgore. If you somehow managed to cheese it past him, you got destroyed at Vael.

Blizzard has followed the same recipe for raid mechanics since the beginning. They started off with a lot of tank'n'spank bosses that had one, maybe two, "do this when that happens" mechanics. Some of the bosses had some "watch where you stand" elements and others had adds or something else to deal with.
Over time they just got more fond of combining those things. Now most bosses have several "do this when that"-mechanics and much more "watch where you stand", plus an element of "something else" (phases, special movement, etc.).
Many of the tose-tinted-glass people forget that dual-tanking did not really show up until WotLK, and there only for some bosses. Prior to that encounters sometimes required an off-tank for adds or the occasional temporary control of the boss while the MT could not tank.

Raids these days feels over-complicated for no reason. They pack the bosses full of all these mechanics, but each role can STILL reduce the strategy down to "stand in the right spot" + "nuke the right target"/"mitigate damage"/"heal tanks and raid" for most of the fights. Of course there are exceptions, but in order to allow more players to raid, they do not have the mechanics that require a complex role rotation or specialised mechanic for one player to execute, not outside mythic at least. These sort of mechanics require coordination and training that is currently only available in well organised guild groups. Blizzard clearly want raiding to be something that can be done more dynamically (even PUG'ed) and that result in mechanics being an overflow of visual gunk with smaller cumulative effect, rather than 1-shot or wipe punishing mechanics relying on a single player. All to make the raids feel more complex. But what they end up doing is making the raids feel more zerg-able. Combined with boss warning addons players almost never experience the "oh... so that is what this ability does if you do not do that"-moments that would have cause a wipe in the past.

On topic:
Kara feels like the revival raid that should have been the intro raid in Legion. To be honest I think that was the plan, but then they realised that it would not work well with 30 players crammed in there and did a quick-fix of pulling in the schedule of EN. EN really feels like a filler-raid, just there to add a raid and progress some story.

[Alvito]

Kara follows the mentality of BC raids.

Simple mechanics but punishing if you mess up as opposed to the more current trend of excessive but not so punishing mechanics.

That isn't how BC was though. You had a very wide berth on what you could screw up and be okay with. Flame wreath was one of the few things in Kara that would kill multiple people if one person screwed it up. There are far more mechanics that can hit any member of the group and kill many if not all of you. As you go further back most of the raids if they had complicated or risky mechanics you could pick you took care of it so the weaker people in your raids were protected by the group.

[Terror85]

We're discussing current content. We're not talking about a 10 year old introductory raid. The conversation is about EN mechanics vs Kara 5 man mechanics. You basically ignored the topic to try to prop up the prestige of a 10 man raid that was an absolute joke in TBC. It wasn't hard, don't kid yourself. I played during TBC, it wasn't hard then, damn sure isn't hard now. I'm not saying that it isn't quality content, quite the opposite, but it is in no way shape or form complex mechanically.

- - - Updated - - -



Read above since my response would be similar

Kara 10 years ago was as challenging then as EN HC is now...its in the same bracket...It wasnt just walk in a clear the place...But once it was cleared..it was easy. Same as EN...they both starter raids, to get people going and into gear and motion. First tier raid aint suppose to be as challenging as final tier raids

- - - Updated - - -

The raid difficulty scales have totally messed up mechanics difficulty. Because they need to do tourist-mode versions, normal version, heroic version, and then the final hard mythic version the mechanics do not feel brutal. By the time guilds get to the hard tune, they have already gotten a soft intro to the mechanic.
The reason why vanilla and TBC mechanics seemed more punishing is because they only had one difficulty. Most of them were tuned to be brutal if you walked in with less than optimal previous tier gear. If you walked into BWL without T1 gear you got demolished on Razorgore. If you somehow managed to cheese it past him, you got destroyed at Vael.

Blizzard has followed the same recipe for raid mechanics since the beginning. They started off with a lot of tank'n'spank bosses that had one, maybe two, "do this when that happens" mechanics. Some of the bosses had some "watch where you stand" elements and others had adds or something else to deal with.
Over time they just got more fond of combining those things. Now most bosses have several "do this when that"-mechanics and much more "watch where you stand", plus an element of "something else" (phases, special movement, etc.).
Many of the tose-tinted-glass people forget that dual-tanking did not really show up until WotLK, and there only for some bosses. Prior to that encounters sometimes required an off-tank for adds or the occasional temporary control of the boss while the MT could not tank.

Raids these days feels over-complicated for no reason. They pack the bosses full of all these mechanics, but each role can STILL reduce the strategy down to "stand in the right spot" + "nuke the right target"/"mitigate damage"/"heal tanks and raid" for most of the fights. Of course there are exceptions, but in order to allow more players to raid, they do not have the mechanics that require a complex role rotation or specialised mechanic for one player to execute, not outside mythic at least. These sort of mechanics require coordination and training that is currently only available in well organised guild groups. Blizzard clearly want raiding to be something that can be done more dynamically (even PUG'ed) and that result in mechanics being an overflow of visual gunk with smaller cumulative effect, rather than 1-shot or wipe punishing mechanics relying on a single player. All to make the raids feel more complex. But what they end up doing is making the raids feel more zerg-able. Combined with boss warning addons players almost never experience the "oh... so that is what this ability does if you do not do that"-moments that would have cause a wipe in the past.

On topic:
Kara feels like the revival raid that should have been the intro raid in Legion. To be honest I think that was the plan, but then they realised that it would not work well with 30 players crammed in there and did a quick-fix of pulling in the schedule of EN. EN really feels like a filler-raid, just there to add a raid and progress some story.

agree 100% on all notes.

[Chrno]

*snip*
On topic:
Kara feels like the revival raid that should have been the intro raid in Legion. To be honest I think that was the plan, but then they realised that it would not work well with 30 players crammed in there and did a quick-fix of pulling in the schedule of EN. EN really feels like a filler-raid, just there to add a raid and progress some story.

Interesting thought, could be the case ... but this ended up working fine as well. Tho i would've preferred it if kara would've been a 10-man

[Lylandra]

Tehehe... it has mythic+ in 7.2 though.

Eh, not so sure about that... the ~870+ DK tank I run Kara with gets *destroyed* on Nightbane whenever his +75% dmg thing is up - to the point where it was nigh impossible to clear if he doesn't get some lucky parries. That same tank can run +9 just fine and +10 if you ignore the timer.
Easy is something else.

Nightbane is comparable to a mythic raid boss. At least when it comes to incoming damage and punishing mechanics. Beating Myth 9/10 is way easier and even tyrannical bosses are far more forgiving than NB. The only thing that makes this boss easier than a myth+ dungeon is that you have no timer to beat and can easily do multiple trys without getting punished. IIRC we had ~6-7 trys before we downed him, respecced for him, used all consumables etc. and had an average ilevel of 870-875.

[arieals]

Kara seems more fun then EN