Demon Hunters are fine ~ Blizzard

[therayeffect]

You don't need ring or haste (!?) to do dps.
Demon Blades and Prepared aren't that far apart, Demon Blades just scales better.
And ofc you need gear to do dps, so does every other class, DH's need far less than most others though.

Do you not keep up to date with the rotation and talent guides?
Tier 100

Demon Blades.

The 7.1 changes to allow fury gain while on the GCD makes this talent superior to prepared for most players. Low-gear players may find more use out of Prepared, but this phase does not last long. With the legendary Havoc ring Demon Blades is a non-choice regardless of gear.

If you have the ring, it's a non-choice and it's awful. It's not supposed to be our best talent but there it is. Once you get the haste and the ring, your dps DOES go up a lot and it's fine then and only then. I can pad on some fights but doing actual good ST (which is most important for raids) requires the ring + belt/bracers. I understand I have pretty weak gear but I get destroyed on pretty much every fight in EN but 'Demon Hunters are fine'. Pft.

[Rev21Sihx]

Did they not just field a question at Bizzcon that stated they made DH's "Underpowered" on purpose, in the fear they would be OP, to discourage ideadology of playstyle with what happened to Dk's. Why Vengeance secondary stats have been nerfed by 1/3rd I don't understand their reason I suppose.

During their podcasts they say we need love and when the patch notes hit we are nerfed again as Vengeance. I supposed I would be happy with just a regular answer instead of being lied to. It's bad enough my stats were cut down 65% roughly from what they were before. I am kind of a laughing stock when I have 6k into my haste and veastility and it equals out to 7%. My paladin from has the same numbers and is at 32-37%. Kind of disheartening.

By all means, I do not mean the sky is falling. I will continue to pay until I am so garbage I will be forced to recreate the quest line from The Sepulcher going into old zones to feel unkillable against lowbie quests.

I love the playstyle, but I supposed I am concerned it's playtyle will change. Which frightens me.

[Bad Management]

Do you not keep up to date with the rotation and talent guides?
Tier 100

Demon Blades.

The 7.1 changes to allow fury gain while on the GCD makes this talent superior to prepared for most players. Low-gear players may find more use out of Prepared, but this phase does not last long. With the legendary Havoc ring Demon Blades is a non-choice regardless of gear.

If you have the ring, it's a non-choice and it's awful. It's not supposed to be our best talent but there it is. Once you get the haste and the ring, your dps DOES go up a lot and it's fine then and only then. I can pad on some fights but doing actual good ST (which is most important for raids) requires the ring + belt/bracers. I understand I have pretty weak gear but I get destroyed on pretty much every fight in EN but 'Demon Hunters are fine'. Pft.

You NEVER go for haste specifically, EVER, the benefit Demon Blades get from haste is so incredibly small that it's not worth it.
EN gear is full of Crit/haste gear though, Vers is still better than haste, but those items are hard(er) to come by.
Yes, I know everything you stated, yes the ring is a decent dps increase, no you absolutely don't need it to do damage.
I don't have the ring, unfortunately, but like I said, it's not in any way required.

[Sliske]

hell no

havoc spec is the most cancer spec I've played. I 100% hate that the only viable build is the fel rush thing because the playstyle for me is ugh but vengeance feels great

reroll then.

i hate demonology and its long ass casts.

guess what im not playing?

i hate ret pala and their boring ass rotation

guess what im not playing?

[lucasriosfg]

Demon Hunters are fine.
Immense AoE burst, decent sustained.
Close to good ST, sustained and consistent.

These are simple facts, supported by logs, if you've even bothered looking at them.

If you're struggling, I suspect the problem is individual, and if DH is too hard, then this game is not for you.

Yeah, i suspect that many people have problems with momentum and don't perform well at single target with the momentum talent taken, thats why they complain about st damage

[Silversorrow]

Fine is a great word....if you add wine or dining to the end of it you really have something there........

[Deleted]

hell no

havoc spec is the most cancer spec I've played. I 100% hate that the only viable build is the fel rush thing because the playstyle for me is ugh but vengeance feels great

Git Gud and stop complainting about a perfectly fine spec.

- - - Updated - - -

reroll then.

i hate demonology and its long ass casts.

guess what im not playing?

i hate ret pala and their boring ass rotation

guess what im not playing?

Sums up this entire thing perfectly. Why do people complaint about a very unique spec instead of simply rerolling -.-

[Sliske]

Sums up this entire thing perfectly. Why do people complaint about a very unique spec instead of simply rerolling -.-

Its even more stupid when you realize the momentum build has been top since mid beta.

Its not like say, a warrior who loved WoD suddenly feels alienated and hates Legion warrior. Thats a legitimate feedback / concern

This though?

This is like a guy picking up a slice of pizza

moron: "What topping does this have?"
guy: Just pepperoni.
moron: "Ah i hate pepperoni"
moron *takes a bite*
guy: why are you eating it then wtf
moron: ugh this is disgusting can you change the pepperoni?
guy: WTF

[Occar]

Not in the slightest. You're welcome to your pepperoni. You folks just feel entitled to own all the pizza and feel like being presented with salami as an option is an affront to your very identity for some bizarre reason. You think that because you like pepperoni, no one is allowed any other pizza toppings. It all must be pepperoni all the time. Even if there are 3 pizzas and you can only eat one, if they aren't all 3 pepperoni, the non pepperoni pizzas must be moldy, or in some other way ruined even though you weren't even going to touch the other pizzas at all.

[Narzok]

i have an idea, but it is really far-fetched, so please don't flame me:

maybe, just maybe, speccs can have more than one viable playstyle / set of talents for a given task? (Spriest and dotless in mop or WoD i think, just with correct numbers xD)

[Constraint]

Can we all please stop assuming if its broken or not. The fact remains that those that spent real time building their toon properly and learning to play the class are doing well, and everyone else is posting on these forums complaining about it not doing well with their ilvl 820. Lets just accept it.

If Demon Blades had been the dominating spec at the start, I wouldn't have complained once, as I would have known what I signed up for. Our cleave/AoE is pretty amazing right now, and our single target isn't terrible by any stretch of the imagination.

But after getting used to and loving the Demon Bite rotation/playstyle, I'm having absolutely no fun. Waiting for and hoping that melee swings don't miss just so I can attack is a truly awful way to play, in my opinion at least. And requiring a legendary ring in order to actually be able to reliably hit your spenders on top of that.. No thanks.

So yeah, I think we need some talent changes pretty badly. Damage buffs? Not really, wouldn't complain if we got nothing on that front, or if our AoE was tuned down slightly.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...1&difficulty=4

Ursoc hc is full ST and ohhh with only 1 spec we can hold us in the middle of the dps

And also in keystone dungeons only 1 way brings us nearly the top:
Fel Mastery demonblades bloodlet soul rending momentum master of glaive and fel barrage

And also only with the legendary ring that dont is a 100% drop and you dont get this must have item with you class quest so pls ......

[Lucetia]

Havoc is fine.

I would agree, except for a few minor things. First, Demon Blades needs to be changed or other talents brought up to par (preferably up to par). It's the top dps talent in that tier and to me, feels clunky and dislike having to be at the mercy of RNG proccing it. I've heard people say it's good and Fury flow is decent, my experience is it takes forever and I'm better off hitting 1.

Secondly, momentum tier needs to be brought up as well. Some enjoy the talent, some don't. Depends on what mood I'm in if I find it fun or just an annoyance. Lastly, at this point Bloodlet and Master of the Glaive should probably be made baseline.

Other than those changes I wouldn't mind seeing, the spec is alright.

[Raikh]

Havoc is ina very good spot right now, atleast PvE wise, since it can be called top tier in both dungeons and raids. It might not be topping meters all day in raids but performs quite high and lives up to its strengths and weaknesses.

About talent diversity and playstyle. I am all for more talent diversity, we have only one build currently viable and choices like demon blades vs prepared stop being a choice at certain gear levels or when getting a certain legendary ring.
One thing is though. I don't want to see the current build, which I enjoy, beign nerfed for the sake of talent diversity. If they nerfed bloodlet and buffed felblade (ignoring that newer sims show felblade being possibly a dps gain over bloodlet for pure ST) then that would be a significant downgrade for me. Even if I did the same ST dps with felblade as with bloodlet before the nerf then I would still need to constantly adjust talents only to achieve the same thing and what I would be getting is not a new talent build option incorporating a different playstyle but minor talent changes every boss and have multiple "builds" of minor difference just to have the same effectiveness I had before with one build.

And getting real different builds is a dream of most classes. Barely any spec has multiple viable builds and the most some specs have is choosing between ST/cleave/AoE talents ajdusting according to the boss, which isn't like explained above necessarily better than having just one build doing it all at once.

Also, a major misconception a lot of you guys seem to have is that without momentum havoc wouldn't be dashing around for dps. Which is untrue. Even if you picked neither momentum nor fel mastery you would still want to be using fel rush for damage. Sure, momentum increases the emphasis on that, resulting in a bit of a change in the rotational flow and requires you to use VR for dps, which doesn't feel as convenient as just using FR, but turning your camera once in a while shouldn't be a huge detriment to your enjoyment of a spec.
The point is what is described as a pizza topping here is not the caused by tlaents but its an integral part of the specs design. Havoc is meant to rush acros the battlefield to maximize throughput. Asking for an alternate option is like asking why you need to play with dots as an affliction lock.

If you are here for the horns, tattoos and the occasional demon look, but dislike what the dh gameplay is about, you should question if the dh is the right choice for you. If you are here because you want more diversity on how to enhance the already given gameplay of the dh, which includes mobility as a damage tool, then you are welcome.

[Lucetia]

Havoc is meant to rush acros the battlefield to maximize throughput. Asking for an alternate option is like asking why you need to play with dots as an affliction lock.

Out of curiosity, where do you get that? Anything I've seen in-game / read doesn't indicate this. I see Fel Rush being more of something like a warrior's charge, etc. Vengeful retreat could be seen as moves like Deterrence.

[Deleted]

Every spec in the game is "fine" under this definition since the last set of hotfixes and 7.1. That doesn't mean nothing can be improved, especially with regards to QoL or talent choices.

What we have to hope for is that "fine" to Blizzard doesn't equate to let's just ignore this spec/class especially with regards to talents. When 7.1.5 goes up; I'm hoping to see every spec get some talent redesign and iteration.

So according to your thinking no spec is fine. More specifically, every spec is broken.
The game plays great. Blizzard has done a tremendous job in balancing 24 dps specs in the overall content of the game. The world, the bosses, the dungeons and the raids are all diverse and not static pixels that your dps pixel interacts with.
Sure devs can re-iterate every now and then but posts claiming that "Demon-Hunters-are-Fine" with an ironic sense, meaning that they aren't, in conjuction with your (and others') posts reek with unsatisfaction.
Well if you aren't satisfied with the class, or the game, then stop playing the fuck out of it. Just stop for 3 weeks and log back in and play your DH. Then you ll see the satisfaction you ll get.
The game aint broke, most of you are. And if I actually take into consideration all the crap I 'm reading about every class in every class forum I wouldn't play at all. This is because most of you that say this shit, suck, are idiots and egoists.

INFRACTION

[Deleted]

The point is what is described as a pizza topping here is not the caused by tlaents but its an integral part of the specs design. Havoc is meant to rush acros the battlefield to maximize throughput. Asking for an alternate option is like asking why you need to play with dots as an affliction lock.

If you are here for the horns, tattoos and the occasional demon look, but dislike what the dh gameplay is about, you should question if the dh is the right choice for you. If you are here because you want more diversity on how to enhance the already given gameplay of the dh, which includes mobility as a damage tool, then you are welcome.

What ???

Do you play alpha and beta?
In alpha and beta Fel rush was a gap closer with a tiny damage also with Fel mastery the damage only crit for 100% it does not the amount of damage it does today vs Chaosstrike bladedance felblade and so on.

If they reduce the damage from Fel rush and buff this damage do chaosstrike all your arguments would be wrong.

Of course the lore behind the class is to be a fast dashing class the strikes enemy down with movement and fast hard hits.
BUt blizz removes our hard hits and so the fast in fast out playstyle gets lost in the of beta....

i understand you, i love also this playstyle with momentum in 80% of the situations but only because you love a playstyle you cant say thats the class design. If this would be truth Momentum would be a passiv and not a talent that came realy late in alpha and was long time inprison by the wardens

Asking for an alternate option is like asking why you need to play with dots as an affliction lock.

No its like bring back a good old playstyle that works realy long in the complete alpha and beta and only the 2 month live server it doenst work again because of the nerfs and buff to some talents and abilitys.

[Life-Binder]

In Dungeon groups

not everything is raids


in fact, since only minority of WoWs population raids, I dont think they should balance PvE around raid encounters

[Brickwalls]

I'm fairly pleased with Demon Hunter, atm, outside of some talent diversity (which hopefully quite a few specs improve on) but where exactly is this quote from?

[Raikh]

Out of curiosity, where do you get that? Anything I've seen in-game / read doesn't indicate this. I see Fel Rush being more of something like a warrior's charge, etc. Vengeful retreat could be seen as moves like Deterrence.

By the simple fact that fel rush deals quite a bit of damage, while only triggering a 0,25 sec gcd. Even without talents it is strong enough to be used in ST and is especially for AoE a no-brainer.

Quickly simmed it for numbers sake. Using FR on ST with neither fel mastery nor momentum picked still provides a 6-7% dps increase. For comparison momentum sims only about 5% better than Nemesis on ST, so if you already have a problem with momentums dominance you will see yourself lost even more when you try to get around fel rush.

And if they didn't want fel rush to be a core part of our rotation then it would either deal way less to no damage or would trigger a full gcds which would cause it to drop out of rotation atleast for ST without talents.


@Liondi
Exactly, in alpha and beta different builds existed. That phase of the game where nothing is tuned, everything is subject to change and spec gameplay is still in an evolving process. Especially during alpha they experimented a lot of how a spec should play and feel.
The product we got out of that testing phase was a spec which wants to rush around to maximize damage, which has nothing to do with any talents. The talents only emphasize on that part of havocs gameplay, while others emphasize more on other parts.

I am all for talent diversity as I said in my post, as long as it doesn't impair existing playstyles or even the overall strength of havoc, but expecting that you can get rid of mobility as a damage tool is asking for more than talent diversity, since that is with the way things currently are a core part of our rotation.