Demon Hunters are fine ~ Blizzard

[Anbokr]

So according to your thinking no spec is fine. More specifically, every spec is broken.
The game plays great. Blizzard has done a tremendous job in balancing 24 dps specs in the overall content of the game. The world, the bosses, the dungeons and the raids are all diverse and not static pixels that your dps pixel interacts with.
Sure devs can re-iterate every now and then but posts claiming that "Demon-Hunters-are-Fine" with an ironic sense, meaning that they aren't, in conjuction with your (and others') posts reek with unsatisfaction.
Well if you aren't satisfied with the class, or the game, then stop playing the fuck out of it. Just stop for 3 weeks and log back in and play your DH. Then you ll see the satisfaction you ll get.
The game aint broke, most of you are. And if I actually take into consideration all the crap I 'm reading about every class in every class forum I wouldn't play at all. This is because most of you that say this shit, suck, are idiots and egoists.

Nope. Did not say that. I'm just echoing what every designer knows -- there's always something to be improved. To say something is "fine" and move on in a game like WoW is disingenuous and lazy. There's always something to be made better. In legion specifically, many classes and specs have been numerically tuned to be fine with regards to balance. That's great. Many specs have been given a specific identity or playstyle. That's great or "fine."

What's not fine is the current state of talents which the devs have admitted multiple times. They blew everything up with legion and didn't get much time to iterate on talents leaving many specs with over the top cookie cutter builds and non-competitive, almost useless talents littered in the trees. So yeah, sure, that's not fine to me. Here's to hoping the devs devote the necessary attention to every spec and class's talents, and doesn't play favorites here.

That's all, no need to twist my words.

I'm not screaming about how demon hunters are broken and the worst class or spec whatever, that's stupid. I'm just not "content," that is to say I'm not going to throw my hands up and say the class is perfect and I'd be happy with 0 changes. That would be a lie; I do love the baseline spec, but I'm hoping the talents are shaken up quite a bit -- there's a lot of work to be done there. So my only hope is when the devs say "DH is fine" they are specifically referring to the numbers and not the talent tree. That they don't use the numbers as an excuse to just ignore the state of the talent tree, and then say, turn around and give mages a nice makeover. We'll see what happens with 7.1.5.

[Lucetia]

By the simple fact that fel rush deals quite a bit of damage, while only triggering a 0,25 sec gcd. Even without talents it is strong enough to be used in ST and is especially for AoE a no-brainer.

Quickly simmed it for numbers sake. Using FR on ST with neither fel mastery nor momentum picked still provides a 6-7% dps increase. For comparison momentum sims only about 5% better than Nemesis on ST, so if you already have a problem with momentums dominance you will see yourself lost even more when you try to get around fel rush.

And if they didn't want fel rush to be a core part of our rotation then it would either deal way less to no damage or would trigger a full gcds which would cause it to drop out of rotation atleast for ST without talents.

Well....none of that answer how/why you think it's part of the class is meant to do this. Just because it does damage and decent amount doesn't mean that it is part of the class in the way you described.

Also, I dislike the whole Fel Rush part because no matter what I do (I always seem to go way farther than intended and lose dps having to backtrack to the boss or wasting Vengeful Retreat to get semi-back to my spot. Even camera turning back around still puts me out of range (though this is extremely annoying and shouldn't really be a think if we are intended to keep Fel Rushing; no other class has to deal with it in their rotation.)

[Yhcti]

It is fine? I watch Serenity streams often and they always have a DH in the top 3/5 on every fight (ashvael/frag) then Nihilum have Verdisha etc etc... I personally wreck every raid I join on my DH and in dungeons no-one even comes close to me. My single target suffered big time until I learned how to time skills with Momentum, now I'm just a freight train.

[Raikh]

Well....none of that answer how/why you think it's part of the class is meant to do this. Just because it does damage and decent amount doesn't mean that it is part of the class in the way you described.

Also, I dislike the whole Fel Rush part because no matter what I do (I always seem to go way farther than intended and lose dps having to backtrack to the boss or wasting Vengeful Retreat to get semi-back to my spot. Even camera turning back around still puts me out of range (though this is extremely annoying and shouldn't really be a think if we are intended to keep Fel Rushing; no other class has to deal with it in their rotation.)

Well, if that using it is a significant dps gain is no indication that an ability is part of our basic rotation then I don't know what is. FR is more impactful overall (looking at all different scenarios, across the board) than Eye beam, blade dance and throw glaive assuming no talents.
Do you honestly think that is an oversight? Or a coincidence? What makes an ability a core part of our rotation for you? Because if FRs impact is not significant enough for you to be part of the basic rotation, then we only have demon's bite and chaos strike and the rest is just a bit of extra flavor, which would be just a stupid assumption.

Your second part is much more revealing. You simply don't want to rush around, you don't like it, you are too ignorant to learn it.
I don't like to stand around and cast spells, someone else doesn't like to deal with pets, both are integral parts of some classes/specs. And for havoc one such unique and special part is that you are on the move when dealing damage. If you say, hey I want some different talent options, so I dont have to focus so much on that movement, that is to a degree a fair argument, since the class doesn't only consists of movement but has other parts to be enhanced. But asking not having to move at all is just saying, hey I want the tattoos but I don't like the class, please fix.

[Lucetia]

Well, if that using it is a significant dps gain is no indication that an ability is part of our basic rotation then I don't know what is.

There have been abilities in the past that did a good chunk of dps and they were nerfed/changed/etc because they weren't what Blizzard wanted as part of the class fantasy. I was looking more towards something written in the story (like site) or actual in-game references, rather than just dps numbers.

You simply don't want to rush around, you don't like it, you are too ignorant to learn it.

Your assumptions speak volumes and explains all I need to know. Thanks for the assumption and completely ignoring half my other comments.

[Lucrece]

Havoc is fine.

With the legendary ring in single target, otherwise single target DPS is abysmal.

Well, if that using it is a significant dps gain is no indication that an ability is part of our basic rotation then I don't know what is. FR is more impactful overall (looking at all different scenarios, across the board) than Eye beam, blade dance and throw glaive assuming no talents.
Do you honestly think that is an oversight? Or a coincidence? What makes an ability a core part of our rotation for you? Because if FRs impact is not significant enough for you to be part of the basic rotation, then we only have demon's bite and chaos strike and the rest is just a bit of extra flavor, which would be just a stupid assumption.

Your second part is much more revealing. You simply don't want to rush around, you don't like it, you are too ignorant to learn it.
I don't like to stand around and cast spells, someone else doesn't like to deal with pets, both are integral parts of some classes/specs. And for havoc one such unique and special part is that you are on the move when dealing damage. If you say, hey I want some different talent options, so I dont have to focus so much on that movement, that is to a degree a fair argument, since the class doesn't only consists of movement but has other parts to be enhanced. But asking not having to move at all is just saying, hey I want the tattoos but I don't like the class, please fix.

That is all fine and dandy until they make fights like Hyrja and Skovald where you're confined to a tiny bubble, or Helya screwing your movement options with hole placement, or Cenarius.

It's even laughable that they say havoc DH is strong in dungeons when dungeons are filled with small hitbox mobs, and raids are wehere havoc DH actually shine because the mechanics don't screw you over as blatantly on large hitbox bosses.

When you look at higher mythic+

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/9#keystone=10

Havoc drops down.

Also doesn't help that besides Anger of the Half Giants, which you have a 1/8 chance of getting on an already marginal drop rate, happens to be the only good legendary we have and even then it's nowhere close to the legendaries of some classes.

[Narzok]

throwing my glaive at a mob, making it bleed = high dmg, class fantasy!!
dashing around, hitting everything around me (bladedance) = low dmg, not class fantasy
??

[Raikh]

That is all fine and dandy until they make fights like Hyrja and Skovald where you're confined to a tiny bubble, or Helya screwing your movement options with hole placement, or Cenarius.

It's even laughable that they say havoc DH is strong in dungeons when dungeons are filled with small hitbox mobs, and raids are wehere havoc DH actually shine because the mechanics don't screw you over as blatantly on large hitbox bosses.

When you look at higher mythic+

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/9#keystone=10

Havoc drops down.

Also doesn't help that besides Anger of the Half Giants, which you have a 1/8 chance of getting on an already marginal drop rate, happens to be the only good legendary we have and even then it's nowhere close to the legendaries of some classes.

You don't have to rush 24/7, you have room to delay FR for some time, so you can easily play around skovald and Hyrja. Helya is alos a non-issue, since you can just rush against her and barely move at all, which is the most favorable scenario you can have dps wise.
You should only lose AAs when rushing out of range due to small hitboxes, since you have TG for filling the gcds out of range.

Aside from m+ being rarely even uploaded resulting in basically useless statistics, if you look at the 95th percentile for the m+10 keys you see that havoc is second place again. If you look at even higher m+ the sample size is so ridiculously small that you can't use it for indicating anything at all.

Last point is alos not true. Anger is the only good ST legendary we have, not the only good legendary. Anger provides roughly 10% dps for pure ST and only when used with demon blades. Mo'arg bionic stabilizers provide roughly 12% dps on 3 targets and still performs decently at AoE, while the ring is useless for AoE and drops off on cleave, since the extra fury is worthless for cleave and AoE.
Which leaves us 2 pretty strong legendaries, filling different niches. Cinidaria is also an okayish all-rounder providing about 3-4% in all situations. (assuming mobs start at full hp)
The other 5 are utter garbage from a dps perspective, agreed, but we aren't alone in having mostly useless legendaries and there are classes which are worse off than we are.

Our ST dps are still middle of the pack without the ring and start getting pretty decent with, consideirng that we excel more at lceave and AoE than ST this is a pretty good spot, especially since we can burst quite well with meta + CB, which is good for beating dps checks and also pretty good for the shorter dungeon boss fights.

[Cymorìl]

In pve havoc is fine, maybe not the best class, but if you enjoy the playstyle there's no reason to complain imho. Strong aoe and good/average single target... In pvp music changes, if they don't want to buff our single target dmg, they should add some utility, lower some cd's and make better our survivability. We are easily cc'ed and depend too strongly on our healer in arena. Even though After last hotfix things are going better, there's so much to do on this class.

[Deleted]

Don't worry, we're fine
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...Tanks&sample=7

[cFortyfive]

For example, warriors have some awful talents but they still have a use in world questing or the like.

Not sure what warrior you mean but the only reason to ever respec as an pve arms warrior is because your baseline kit is dogshit and you have to spec your aoe stun and defensive capabilities.

[Deletedededed]

Havoc is fine, if you're running our main build, but this is an issue for every specialization. Talents were changed as we know, which has caused talents to be less competitive for the intent of this talent tree design. Outside of that, some rows will have an individual swapping all the time, depending on where they're at, while with other rows a player wont need to swap at all. Some abilities are completely asinine. In my opinion, at least for Havoc, while we are doing fine — not on the top, but fine — some of our talents, active and passive, should be baseline and replaced with more significant abilities. Otherwise, this talent system isn't doing what it should be, which is to offer meaningful choices.

[DeuZWw]

Havoc is fine.
The main problem i see is that people don't like Fel Rush. but for those people: you shouldn't be playing demon hunter. Even without momentum you awnt to use FelRush. It is a class about Mobility. it's like being an Affliction Warlock and saying you hate DoTs.

It may not be the best ever and easy spec, but it's very, very far from being inviable. And it easily shines on any AoE needed fight.


Vengeance only problem is the amount of Skillcap you need to actually be good at it, plus mandatory Last Resort to prevent wipes from spikes damage. But still, you can do every content in the game right now as Vengeance.
Would say that Vengeance need really slightly changes on mitigation. However, i got my Legendary Back other day, and it's helping ALOT with magical damage.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Demon Hunters are fine.
Immense AoE burst, decent sustained.
Close to good ST, sustained and consistent.

These are simple facts, supported by logs, if you've even bothered looking at them.

If you're struggling, I suspect the problem is individual, and if DH is too hard, then this game is not for you.

I fully agree with that. I suspect any small changes to break the "fine" state we are in right now. I imagine any slight buffs would easily push us to the top where Blizzard will most likely be looking at nerfs and break the class below "fine".

[Deleted]

havoc are fine after the GCD change, now what is needed is tuning on talents, some talents that grant gain in ST Dps and niche picks.

Like fel blade etc.

Eye beam needs a buff for ST damage.

thats about it i would more call it "correction" and not buff.

[willtron]

I made people bitch about vengeance pvp after 1v3ing a prot. Warrior and two survival hunters over and over again in Azsuna.

Yet I was 2v1d (Inexperienced pvp mistwalker) by a havok.

They're all fine, just get better :3

It's okay guys. DH is good. Totally not subjective Evidence right here.

[Bad Management]

It's okay guys. DH is good. Totally not subjective Evidence right here.

You'll find 100% concrete evidence in logs, do check them.

[mitre27]

We are fine RIGHT NOW, but scaling will be an issue in nighthold i believe, being able to pad meters with our high aoe/cleave means little, xavius for example i also do well due to the cleaving on tentacles at the end, which is useless damage, same with eyeball and spider boss, the adds will die either way, what matters more is priority target DPS, sure on some fights in future cleave will be super useful (Two constant targets etc) but even then it will be on very few fights.

[Deleted]

In PVP DEmonhunter isnt fine.

Look at Rated Arena 2s and 3s we are crappiest Melee Class and this after the first nerf in the first season weak.

No TEAM takes a Demonhunter in the Finals every class but NO demonhunter in the PVP Finals from the first LEGION sesion this says a lot.

Why?
we have no MS
we have not team utility
we have nearly no self heal
nothing only damage and it gives a lot of classes that bring more dps and heal or ms or cc or burst.

WW ( MS, More burst and more off heal)
Feral ( More damage and better heal)
Warrior ( MS and a ton of more damage and also a bit more cc yeah warrior fear is a cc sry warriors )
Enhancer ( Burst like a god and more utility and heal for the team)
SV Hunter ( More overall Damage and a ton on cc and utility for the team)
Rogues ( More burst, more overall Damage, more self cds, more utility everything more )
Retri ( More burst, and a ton of utility for the whole team )
Dk ( More burst and constant damage, also good selfheal and def cds against magic )


Does i forget a class ?
And every class was in the Finals with min 1 Spec. We have only 1 spec and cant find a place in the finals ?

[Lisa Frank Succubus]

What kind of niche do you think they could give them in pvp to make them more sought after? Rogues are awesome utility, great CDs and options (I play one ) but I'm wondering what they could do for demon hunters to make them better without robbing some of the identity from the other leather classes. I think having two specs here hurts the most here, its a design choice I approve of in the long run because its one less thing they have to balance but yeah..DHs suffer from this.

I love my DH but its really why I don't main one.