Talent system is a failure

[Banard]

Old talent trees were removed because there was never a "choice" there was always a optimal build.

Its been years with the new talent system, the goal was to give players a choice and step away from "cookie cutter builds"....and really besides a few instance its been 90% the same...there was an optimal build and you ignore the rest.

So in that sense...the talent system is a failure.

I don't want the developers wasting time "trying to make a each talent tier" a viable choice. Its time to bake the talents in...re-balance and move on. This feature has failed to its original goal.

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: i am not advocating to bring back the old system...just the new system do not solve the old system flaws of cookie cutter builds. Please note cookie cutter builds can change per boss or per style pve/pvp/dungeon etc...the issue is choice is an illusion.

EDIT #2 from a post on page 10:

In other words. You don't have a choice, or you do but to choose a given talent not suited for the encounter is asinine.

Reading comprehension guys... (not calling you out personally because many others are making the mistake).

If for a given tier there is a single target ability and a multi target ability, and EVERYONE is switching to the BEST option for that specific encounter... there is an illusion of choice. Because if you choose a multi target spell on a single target encounter you are bad, stupid, etc.

Base line we all have situational abilities. What the OP is saying is stop with the illusion. Just bake those into baseline and we will use them as needed (aka situationally).

If for a given talent tree, talent tier, there is an obvious best choice either all the time or for a specific encounter, you have illusion of choice.

What the OP is saying is that the only way you truly have choice is if for a given tree or tier that all choices perform marginally the same and ultimately only effect play style.

regarding the last line in the above quote... i am also saying it is impossible to do so **insert three xpac of blizzard trying to do this**.

[Hctaz]

This has been talked about since MoP. They haven't removed it since and they probably won't remove it ever.

[Dendin]

"an optimal build and you ignore the rest"

Actually, I regularly tell my raiders to not play with certain "optimal" talents because they can't execute them well. I'd rather they use a passive that's 1% behind "optimal" than fail at the best and lose 5%.

[mistahwilshire]

In general, on average across the game, people ARE switching talents more than they ever used to, and that's the only point that really matters here. That was the entire intention of getting rid of the old bad trees. There will ALWAYS be outliers.

The only thing better about the old system was leveling. Not a good enough reason to move forward with a inferior system.

[Deleted]

Old talent trees were removed because there was never a "choice" there was always a optimal build.

Its been years with the new talent system, the goal was to give players a choice and step away from "cookie cutter builds"....and really besides a few instance its been 90% the same...there was an optimal build and you ignore the rest.

So in that sense...the talent system is a failure.

I don't want the developers wasting time "trying to make a each talent tier" a viable choice. Its time to bake the talents in...re-balance and move on. This feature has failed to its original goal.

Some classes / specs tend to use a lot of the same talents. Others actually use a lot of different talents. There was a reddit thread the other day with a guy listing how often talents were used for mythic raiding, and it really wasn't bad for most specs. Some specs (Arms for example) did have a bunch of talents that were entirely unused (More than half!).

Rebalancing and reworking some talents can definitely make it work, and it seems like 7.1.5 is aimed at fixing that. In part by making the "always picked" talents baseline, and by making the ones that are "never" picked better.

[mistahwilshire]

"an optimal build and you ignore the rest"

Actually, I regularly tell my raiders to not play with certain "optimal" talents because they can't execute them well. I'd rather they use a passive that's 1% behind "optimal" than fail at the best and lose 5%.

Way to aim low. "Don't worry about trying to play well guys. Just stand there and keep breathing IRL".

[Deleted]

Actually, I regularly tell my raiders to not play with certain "optimal" talents because they can't execute them well. I'd rather they use a passive that's 1% behind "optimal" than fail at the best and lose 5%.

If the difference between talents would be of 1%, i guess OP would not have opened this thread.

[Deleted]

If the difference between talents would be of 1%, i guess OP would not have opened this thread.

The % does not matter really. He is right that how talents work is exactly the opposite of Blizzard's philosophy. This philosophy was the reason why talents were changed.

[mistahwilshire]

The % does not matter really. He is right that how talents work is exactly the opposite of Blizzard's philosophy. This philosophy was the reason why talents were changed.

He's not right at all though..

Not even close. The current system has players changing talents so much more than the old one it's not even remotely comparable.

[Pull My Finger]

Stop always whining. It's absolutely stupid to stand there and talk about "failures".

Overall people are swapping talents way more often than it was the case with the old system, so I really don't see how you can seriously try to make sense of out calling the system a failure.

Also, I don't even want to change talents every 5 friggin' minutes. Nobody wants that.

[Deleted]

The only thing better about the old system was leveling. Not a good enough reason to move forward with a inferior system.

Agreed, but having to choose between three talents, when some of them are useless compared with the other two, or even worse, of the three to choose there is only a valid option, it is quite stupid.
But Blizz is quite the expert in doing this, see D3 as their greatest achievement in zero real choice when choosing.
Talent choices? an illusion, what are you hiding?

[Deleted]

He's not right at all though..

Not even close. The current system has players changing talents so much more than the old one it's not even remotely comparable.

Most is still cookie cutter though. Pick talent X for encounter A and talent Z for encounter B. So yeah...

[Mawnix]

Stop always whining. It's absolutely stupid to stand there and talk about "failures".

Overall people are swapping talents way more often than it was the case with the old system, so I really don't see how you can seriously try to make sense of out calling the system a failure.

Also, I don't even want to change talents every 5 friggin' minutes. Nobody wants that.

That's a joke, right?

Because I'm quite sure you never actually played with the Old Talent Trees if you're saying that.

- - - Updated - - -

Most is still cookie cutter though. Pick talent X for encounter A and talent Z for encounter B. So yeah...

Which is why they're taking a look at Talents and doing changes to them in 7.1.5.

I feel a slight choice as a Frost DK, but there's certain instances. Most of those instances involve 3 things: mobility, cleave fight, or single target.

And, in that case, there's virtually a cookie cutter for each spec, but I feel better about it than having the literally same 51 or 32 points in my trees from back in the day.

[mistahwilshire]

Most is still cookie cutter though. Pick talent X for encounter A and talent Z for encounter B. So yeah...

Changing your talents based on the encounter. Exactly. CHANGING YOUR TALENTS. This almost never used to happen. It was pick talent X for encounter A through Z.

Clear cut improvement and not a failure.

- - - Updated - - -

That's a joke, right?

Because I'm quite sure you never actually played with the Old Talent Trees if you're saying that.

It's not a joke at all. People change now FAR FAR more than ever. It's astronomically incomparable.

[Mawnix]

It's not a joke at all. People change now FAR FAR more than ever. It's astronomically incomparable.

I think you misinterpreted my post.

I was calling out the OP for advocating for Old Talents having more choice than the current system.

I agree with your points wholeheartedly.

[Deleted]

Overall people are swapping talents way more often than it was the case with the old system, so I really don't see how you can seriously try to make sense of out calling the system a failure.

Because it is a failure, the moment i get to choose one talent out of three in a row, and have never to change it in any possible gameplay situation, until they nerf/buff that exact row later on with a patch, IF they do it.
And no i am not asking for changing talents each 5 minutes, but having a talent in a row that is useless it is quite stupid for me.
I would rather have 2 talents per row, and being able to really choose the one i like better, but being both usefull.

[Aceveda]

I liked old talents more as it allowed classes to have broader class-wide toolkits, like mages of any spec having spells from all schools.

[Lochton]

To be honest, there's always been a cookie cutter in the talent trees. Just, this time it seems less as some classes has more competition on choices.

[Pull My Finger]

That's a joke, right?

Because I'm quite sure you never actually played with the Old Talent Trees if you're saying that.

So sure yet so wrong. Well then, it happens, right.

I don't know in which way you're doing it wrong, but obviously you have a strange talent for approaching the system in some terribly backwards way.

[chooi]

That depends heavily on what class/spec you're talking about. Some specs are required to change talents constantly depending on the situation. Some other specs just use one cookie cutter build for practically everything.

In general, they did a prety good job with talent trees this time around. Though, there will always be cookie cutter builds and/or clear winners for specific scenarios (which is a good thing) unless you want to homogenize everything (which is a bad thing, IMO)

What I'd like to see is a system where they let us choose X amount of talents from a whole bunch of many talents freely. Maybe with some restrictions and/or some kind of hybrid from current WoW and D3 talent systems.