Why the inferiority complex about Mage?

[GT4]

Wait what, did you just compare Warlocs utility with Mages. The class that brings Healtstones, Combat rez, a fucking in combat teleport, a dmg cd, insane absorb and a non cd based self heal. I'm not even gonna start on the fucking pets.

Either you have no fucking clue about raiding or you're biased as fuck.

Healthstones are irrelevant for any serious content because they share a cooldown with health potions and heal slightly less. Combat rez is typically not worth considering for raiding either because the chances of not having any druids/DKs is basically zero. Gateway can be useful but it's situational and there's no reason to bring more than one of. The latter two are pretty akin to time warp in that there's no point in bringing more than one warlock for them. Damage cooldowns are strictly inferior to those that mages have. Absorbs can be very useful but often end up just absorbing damage that mages don't take to begin with (better mobility & ice block). Non cooldown based self heal drops your DPS into the gutter for 2/3 specs. For the latter two you'd also have to take into account life tap which counteracts the sustain to some degree depending on the spec.

When it comes to taking more than one of a class to a raid, mages' ice block alone provides more utility than everything a warlock has combined. Having as many immunity cooldowns as possible makes a lot of encounters (including the hardest EN boss, cenarius, and the probably hardest ToV boss, helya) a lot easier.

[mirodin]

When it comes to taking more than one of a class to a raid, mages' ice block alone provides more utility than everything a warlock has combined. Having as many immunity cooldowns as possible makes a lot of encounters (including the hardest EN boss, cenarius, and the probably hardest ToV boss, helya) a lot easier.

You say mages avoid damage because they are more mobile, but it's not like warlocks don't have access to a personal teleport on top of the demonic gateway. Ice block helps in o shit situations but unlike the rest of damage reduction cd's you can't dps for its duration, Unending Resolve is a 40% dmg reduction which doesn't distrupt your dps. Between the 3 specs in warlocks have some nice self sustainability other via shorter cd's, more healing or shared dmg with pet, so yes they are still better off then mages. You argument about combat rez makes no sense, you are assuming that every raid has enough druids and/or dk's to cover rezing which is simply not true.

I fail to see how a mages ice block provides more utility alone, this is just taking the piss. It's so encounter dependent, like having warlcoks for LK HC, sure it made the fight easier if you were lucky enough to have your warlocks targeted. If you look stuff like that, for every encounter you will find a class that can ignore or make a mechanic trivial.

[Nihiel]

Mirodin, I'm really speechless at how you can say mages have no functional utility compared to hybrids (and warlocks, lol). Have you ever raided at a higher level? The mantra of HFC was "STACK THOSE IMMUNITIES" - hence rogues and mages were massively favoured for their half a billion survival/cheese cds, on top of being the two top dps classes as well. How on earth you cannot see how brokenly OP Iceblock is I don't understand. Hybrids have NOTHING on the defensives and utilities of mages.

I played both shadow and arcane in HFC, and I would just feel so completely useless as shadow. As a mage I could Alter Time the knock up during Archimonde P1, Ginvis and instantly cheese it - solo soaking, taking no dmg, losing absolutely no uptime on dps. And if that wouldn't work out for some reason, I could still Slow Fall, Blink or even just Ice Block. Mages are just handed everything to them, and the most broken shit in all of Legion (besides S2M Shadow which is truly worse than Trump) is having baseline Iceblock, Icy Floes and Blink/Shimmer on a single class. Fucking rip that shadow has a 60% DR dispersion. Mages are just untouched Gods, I fail to see how anyone could ever question that.

[Urkhan]

We have it good, period.
So many classes stripped down of so many tools and we still have so much. Even with the small fire nerf, I really can't complain, it is still fun.
And if we take into account that lots of classes play styles are not even considered fun to play... damn, we are golden (fire mage here, not knowledge enough of the other mage specs).

[Aliven]

Is not as simple as that. Almost all if not all hybrids bring raid utility, be it a raid wide cd, or a single target cd, that can not be ignored. For example Retri paladin, they bring BoF, BoP, 3 Greater Blessings, Lay on Hands, and for themselves they have the most powerful CD in the game. Druids are probably better then retri since they even have a talent that enhances their hybrid nature, and i cba continuing to other classes. In the current state, if every class does same dps the result will most likely be that the specs that bring most raid utility get raid spots.

Yes, it is that simple. Mage got bloodlust, rogue get THE BEST survival cds and overall the best survi of all melee dps. Warlock got awesome utility with portals. Hunters are basically a ranged rogue.

So, yes, it is that simple. No matter the utility, if your class is shit you dont get raid spot.

[gallamann]

Mirodin, I'm really speechless at how you can say mages have no functional utility compared to hybrids (and warlocks, lol). Have you ever raided at a higher level? The mantra of HFC was "STACK THOSE IMMUNITIES" - hence rogues and mages were massively favoured for their half a billion survival/cheese cds, on top of being the two top dps classes as well. How on earth you cannot see how brokenly OP Iceblock is I don't understand. Hybrids have NOTHING on the defensives and utilities of mages.

I played both shadow and arcane in HFC, and I would just feel so completely useless as shadow. As a mage I could Alter Time the knock up during Archimonde P1, Ginvis and instantly cheese it - solo soaking, taking no dmg, losing absolutely no uptime on dps. And if that wouldn't work out for some reason, I could still Slow Fall, Blink or even just Ice Block. Mages are just handed everything to them, and the most broken shit in all of Legion (besides S2M Shadow which is truly worse than Trump) is having baseline Iceblock, Icy Floes and Blink/Shimmer on a single class. Fucking rip that shadow has a 60% DR dispersion. Mages are just untouched Gods, I fail to see how anyone could ever question that.

All those thing you preach about in first paragraph, long gone. Only Arcane still has Greater Invis, and that is a 60% DR now and no longer strips two debuffs. I agree GI in WoD was OP, so was Evanesce.

Iceblock isn't OP, if you play well and avoid mechanics, you should never use it in PvE. Think it's still around because they consider it iconic to the class. To be blunt if I need Ice Block then I fucked up a mechanic before that.

This is the squishiest we have been since Cata (when I started playing mage), every encounter as Fire I am not only using Ice Barrier but also Blink to get the heal, both of which cost me DPS.

Do agree shimmer is sweet for moving shit out of raid.

Ice floes - I tend to be person who finds spot that requires least movement, and when I do move it is typically via Blink to a pre-planned location, as such not much use for it. There are a couple fights that it is nice on, it shines in fights with a push back mechanic.

So overall, yeap in WoD we were OP utility wise. Now, you maybe could argue Arcane since it has both 60% DR with GI and Displacement (I liked that in solo play to maintain range, have not raided as Arcane) but Fire/Frost as they currently are naw.

Will tell you I am stuck in middle of DPS constantly, considering I no longer bring any raid utility, should be able to consistently be top 5. Please note the culprits here are melee and hunter, this expansion so far has really favored melee.

My favorite utility currently as a mage, every time I put another point into Artifact because I gain an additional .75% Stamina

[BiggestNoob]

Fire mage has no real downsides. Shadow priests may rule in raids but in dungeons they are shit. Mage on the other hand can somewhat keep up with melee on trash and do great on dungeon bosses.

Their downside is raid performance without BiS legendaries.

On high M+ spriest is actually fine.

Per the OP, these 3 fights are misleading:

Elerethe - LB pad on spiders
Dragons - LB pad on spirits and general pad on other adds with bad execution
Xavius - ignite pad on tentacles that don't need to die, spriest does it too (and better)

Fire is below average. Everything it can do a hunter can do significantly better, which is why for ToV people are stacking hunters and not mages.

Blizzard nerfed fire unnecessarily and buffed frost so it's better in ST and cleave and arcane so it's better in ST and AoE, leaving fire the best mage spec at burst AoE. They said they weren't going to do this, but they did it anyway, and itemization in EN, ToV, and NH is ass for mages.

Anyone arguing that they should reroll mage this expansion hasn't actually seen a decent raid or played one.

[Kithelle]

Wait what, did you just compare Warlocs utility with Mages. The class that brings Healtstones, Combat rez, a fucking in combat teleport, a dmg cd, insane absorb and a non cd based self heal. I'm not even gonna start on the fucking pets.

Healthstones that were nerfed in WoD to be worse than health potions (or was that MoP even?) A combat teleport that was nerfed, what damage cooldown, you mean the one we have to talent into? (Where are each spec of mage have their own unique cooldown and can spec into a 50% damage buff CD) our absorb has to ramp up with damage while mage gets a instant cast absorb. What cooldown are you talking about unless you're counting healthstones twice? Our pets hit like a wet noodle...and frost has a pet too.

We have had every aspect nerfed including damage...so yeah...get out of here scrub...you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

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You say mages avoid damage because they are more mobile, but it's not like warlocks don't have access to a personal teleport on top of the demonic gateway. Ice block helps in o shit situations but unlike the rest of damage reduction cd's you can't dps for its duration, Unending Resolve is a 40% dmg reduction which doesn't distrupt your dps. Between the 3 specs in warlocks have some nice self sustainability other via shorter cd's, more healing or shared dmg with pet, so yes they are still better off then mages. You argument about combat rez makes no sense, you are assuming that every raid has enough druids and/or dk's to cover rezing which is simply not true.

I fail to see how a mages ice block provides more utility alone, this is just taking the piss. It's so encounter dependent, like having warlcoks for LK HC, sure it made the fight easier if you were lucky enough to have your warlocks targeted. If you look stuff like that, for every encounter you will find a class that can ignore or make a mechanic trivial.

Blink has a 15 second cooldown shimmer has a 15 second cooldown with 2 charges vs Demonic gateway with a 1.5 minute cooldown. So ummm...in case you're not good at math...15 seconds is a lot better than a minute and a half.

Ice Block is a oh shit button that keeps you from dying...so is invisibility...both instant cast...you get 2 5 minute cooldowns which can essentially eliminate all damage taken vs us getting one DR 3 minute cooldown. Ice Block can also be specced into 2 charges and provide healing as well.

Once again downplaying what you have to *make* warlock sound better when it isn't.

[Xuvial]

They've never had a bad tier

Wasn't T6 pretty terrible where there was absolutely no reason to bring a mage over a lock/rogue?

[BiggestNoob]

Damage cooldowns are strictly inferior to those that mages have.

CDs don't typically matter if your DPS is ass outside of them. Classes without strong burst are still competitive overall, which means this isn't an argument.

Absorbs can be very useful but often end up just absorbing damage that mages don't take to begin with (better mobility & ice block). Non cooldown based self heal drops your DPS into the gutter for 2/3 specs. For the latter two you'd also have to take into account life tap which counteracts the sustain to some degree depending on the spec.

We have among the worst survivability in the game, and you can clearly see it in frequent deaths on fights where blinks can't avoid damage. We're a GCD locked spec with all mitigation tied up in Ice Barrier (which is weak by personal CD standards) and Ice Block which both require dropped GCDs, meanwhile plenty of 1m personals and passive effects are stronger in general and can actually prevent death through millions of damage taken, without impacting one's play or mobility.

Ice Block is only useful in a raid if there's a mechanic you can solo with it. If there isn't one, it's one of the worst personals in the game because it's got a 5 minute CD and stuns you.

When it comes to taking more than one of a class to a raid, mages' ice block alone provides more utility than everything a warlock has combined. Having as many immunity cooldowns as possible makes a lot of encounters (including the hardest EN boss, cenarius, and the probably hardest ToV boss, helya) a lot easier.

There's nothing you can immune on Cenarius to the benefit of the raid, nor on Helya. Ice Block provides essentially 0 value in this expansion so far.

[Deleted]

I played both shadow and arcane in HFC, and I would just feel so completely useless as shadow. As a mage I could Alter Time the knock up during Archimonde P1, Ginvis and instantly cheese it - solo soaking, taking no dmg, losing absolutely no uptime on dps. And if that wouldn't work out for some reason, I could still Slow Fall, Blink or even just Ice Block. Mages are just handed everything to them, and the most broken shit in all of Legion (besides S2M Shadow which is truly worse than Trump) is having baseline Iceblock, Icy Floes and Blink/Shimmer on a single class. Fucking rip that shadow has a 60% DR dispersion. Mages are just untouched Gods, I fail to see how anyone could ever question that.

Did you actually play the encounter? Blink would instagib you on the knockup because the damage was a spell applied on landing, not fall damage. Slow fall worked the same except it gave people more time to catch you and IB, well IB actually worked.

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Ice Block is a oh shit button that keeps you from dying...so is invisibility...both instant cast...you get 2 5 minute cooldowns which can essentially eliminate all damage taken vs us getting one DR 3 minute cooldown. Ice Block can also be specced into 2 charges and provide healing as well.

Once again downplaying what you have to *make* warlock sound better when it isn't.

Invis is not an oh shit button. It doesn't remove debuffs, carries no dmg reduction and is really only useful for skipping packs (hi skraggldrynk) and getting out of combat on a wipe.

- - - Updated - - -

There's nothing you can immune on Cenarius to the benefit of the raid, nor on Helya. Ice Block provides essentially 0 value in this expansion so far.

WEll, you could blink into 1 bramble and iceblock the dot I guess. Or just have a hunter/rogue pop their shit and run through a slew of them clearing everything.

[Alvito]

They've never had a bad tier

No pure dps class does though. One spec is always good and a top choice.

[Kithelle]

Mostly jealousy. I play with a few actual top 5 at their spec in the world, including warlock and elemental, and guess what, they laugh it off when somebody QQs about mage being OP. These players take a big dump dump on 99% of mages regardless of their gear, and have incredible satisfaction to own them and get whispers after "how you do it mate? I thought yours spec is shit!"

Sooooo many, oh so many bad players.

Of course the top 1% of anything can outdo 99% of any of the lower classes....just look at the US's financial situation

But are they laughing at the top 1% of mages? Probably not...

[BiggestNoob]

Of course the top 1% of anything can outdo 99% of any of the lower classes....just look at the US's financial situation

But are they laughing at the top 1% of mages? Probably not...

Actually probably, yeah: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=99

[Kithelle]

Actually probably, yeah: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=99

All 3 Mage specs are performing better than 2/3rds of Lock specs...one spec is above all 3 and another spec is just below the best lock spec.

Mage overall is in a better place...

[stevenho]

Mages currently provide competitive numbers on fights where padding is present like Xavius or Elerethe, or crap numbers where it is not, like Xavius.
Anyone saying they are remotely close to being OP has no clue what he's talking about.

[Jyggalag]

Wasn't T6 pretty terrible where there was absolutely no reason to bring a mage over a lock/rogue?

True but you might bring for a hero/lust unless you had a good ele shaman. Thinking more recent, as back then there wasn't much in the way of class balance.

[Deleted]

True but you might bring for a hero/lust unless you had a good ele shaman. Thinking more recent, as back then there wasn't much in the way of class balance.

Pretty sure Time Warp wasn't in the game back then?

Mages being OP is a myth that has carried on from beta/early progression. Instead of nerfing the bracers they nerf the whole spec, nice logic.

[Jyggalag]

Pretty sure Time Warp wasn't in the game back then?

Mages being OP is a myth that has carried on from beta/early progression. Instead of nerfing the bracers they nerf the whole spec, nice logic.

Ah very true - ignore me

[Deleted]

They mainly base it on old performance. Mage right now sucks compared to what it used to be at times in the past. It's mainly the problem of the artifacts/legendaries/gear gating of Legion that it doesn't let people hop from spec to spec each boss like we used to do. So most minmaxers can't utilize a pure class as optimally anymore. We might as well be shadow priests, approximately.

I'll tell you what though. Mages also collect a lot of minmaxers. I've been following the theorycrafting community of mages since Cata and it is clear it collects a large population of players that mainly care about numbers on the meters and logs first and foremost.

It makes sense for pure classes though. Locks to a lesser extend are similar and hunters, and I think rogues are at least 2nd in that factor, collecting a lot of minmaxing players. But as described above, the Legion systems soft gate us out of the pure classes a bit.