Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[garmeth06]

1) no video guides to carry your ass 2) No idea what the bosses do.

Both of these do not apply to heroic Odyn.

The mechanics of the fight are very, very simple. On HEROIC ( which is the "normal" difficulty functionally where most average guilds should be expected to clear the content with reasonable effort) Odyn with 21 players has 1.25 billion health, two adds that have 500 mil health each that need to be dpsed to 25% ( without the ability for most classes to cleave them ) and an additional set of ~6 adds that spawn twice before phase two. On phase two the two 500 mil adds come back one at a time with the extra adds again (given you only need to dps the big ones down by 15% each time) with a healing check comparable to mythic ursoc. The vast majority of these adds cannot be efficiently cleaved.

The sheer amount of damage required for a heroic fight is asinine.

Mythic Ursoc has 1.3 bil health with an add that might as well not be there. Even then, the fight wasn't a walk in the park for the best guilds on the first lockout of mythic EN.

EN was a joke raid, and the numbers prove it; 1st and 774th(number of kills atm on wowprogress) Xavius Mythic kill is 41 days. Same rank time gap for Archimonde Mythic was pretty much 6 months(179 days). Keep in mind the guy's guild being 4/7 puts them somewhere at world rank 1500, so idk what you expect from them with performance in a new raid, but that is low.

Blizzard introduces a non-ezmode raid and idiots with no clue what to do go in expecting faceroll just because they killed the 4 easiest mythic bosses of a joke raid and wipe for hours? Well no fucking shit.

You're applying a false equivalency between heroic Trials of Valor and mythic EN. Just because mythic EN was, perhaps, too easy, doesn't mean that heroic Odyn should be harder than half of the raid on mythic to overcompensate especially considering the ilvls rewarded. Additionally, It isn't a surprise that emerald nightmare isn't a difficult raid. I think this is somewhat intentional and precedented as it isn't an important lore raid that involves an important villain. You can liken this to highmaul in WoD or MSV in mists. Typically, blizzard reserves the first raid to be fairly tame and then piles on an actual hard boss or two at the end of a tier.

I think heroic Odyn is harder than most mythic Siege of Ogrimmar bosses and that was one of the hardest raids ever made especially before blackfuse belts were nerfed.

The main reason why EN is considered easy is purely because of Xavius and has no implication on the previous 6 bosses. This means your attempt to compare the first 4 easy bosses of mythic EN to heroic ToV is even more fallacious.

[Demise_]

Without trying to be elitist, I pugged the raid today and found that while some mechanics are unforgiving, it was not that difficult. Some wipes for sure. But that was more about learning fight mechanics rather than through put requirements.

that is of cause if the fight is done right. There are a couple of 1 shot mechanics, or adds that need to be focused etc. The only part that strained me as a healer was the charge damage on Guarm, but healer cool downs should be able to manage that.

[Deleted]

Just pugged it on normal with I'd say an average group of 870s. Took 2-3 wipes on Odyn & Guarm, Helya took about 5-6 attempts. As long as you phase transition right you shouldn't have too much trouble with Helya, but we did overgear it so the adds / tentacles did die fast. If you spent long in p2 I can imagine it being a hard encounter.

[Tehterokkar]

Both of these do not apply to heroic Odyn.

The mechanics of the fight are very, very simple. On HEROIC ( which is the "normal" difficulty functionally where most average guilds should be expected to clear the content with reasonable effort) Odyn with 21 players has 1.25 billion health, two adds that have 500 mil health each that need to be dpsed to 25% ( without the ability for most classes to cleave them ) and an additional set of ~6 adds that spawn twice before phase two. On phase two the two 500 mil adds come back one at a time with the extra adds again (given you only need to dps the big ones down by 15% each time) with a healing check comparable to mythic ursoc. The vast majority of these adds cannot be efficiently cleaved.

The sheer amount of damage required for a heroic fight is asinine.

Mythic Ursoc has 1.3 bil health with an add that might as well not be there. Even then, the fight wasn't a walk in the park for the best guilds on the first lockout of mythic EN.



You're applying a false equivalency between heroic Trials of Valor and mythic EN. Just because mythic EN was, perhaps, too easy, doesn't mean that heroic Odyn should be harder than half of the raid on mythic to overcompensate especially considering the ilvls rewarded. Additionally, It isn't a surprise that emerald nightmare isn't a difficult raid. I think this is somewhat intentional and precedented as it isn't an important lore raid that involves an important villain. You can liken this to highmaul in WoD or MSV in mists. Typically, blizzard reserves the first raid to be fairly tame and then piles on an actual hard boss or two at the end of a tier.

I think heroic Odyn is harder than most mythic Siege of Ogrimmar bosses and that was one of the hardest raids ever made especially before blackfuse belts were nerfed.

The main reason why EN is considered easy is purely because of Xavius and has no implication on the previous 6 bosses. This means your attempt to compare the first 4 easy bosses of mythic EN to heroic ToV is even more fallacious.

What does a bosses health have to do with anything? It just means the fight is longer. And the adds can be multi-dotted or cleaved by Hunters(at least 2 at once). You are stupid comparing Ursoc, a numbers check fight, to a fight that involves much more and is more than twice as long. Ursoc was also designed to be healing intensive so that you couldn't just 2-3 heal it and cheat the DPS check that way.

And Ursoc wasn't a walk in the park for top guilds? Yes it was. His DPS check was retardedly easy for being the "dps race" of the raid. We killed it on the first attempt we had nobody die to useless stuff with a few seconds to spare from Berserk.

Heroic and Mythic ToV should be tuned harder, because it's only 3 bosses, so guilds should still spend some time in the raid, rather than the fiasco that was EN for the world first racers(18hr for Exorsus to clear the instance). Putting those really try hard guilds aside, even for more casual guilds, each boss should be a bit harder so the raid lasts longer in a very artificial manner(people wipe more, have to put more time into each boss individually) by increasing the number tuning.

Also still about EN, Xavius was just a joke, the main fights were Il'gynoth and Cenarius, both which were really easy after you got to 870 avg ilvl and above and Blizz hotfixed to allow Vantus Runes to work in Mythic. The main issue with Cenarius for most guilds is making sure tanks survive nowadays, the DPS checks are gone(unless you try and zerg it to 35% before double sisters, but that is making the fight even more of a joke anyway). And for Il'gynoth you just have to be patient and survive both P1s, rather than try to make DPS checks which were once again trivialized with a few resets worth of gear.

Cenarius was like Xhul'horac, he was pretty tough for the people who first killed him, then as you got more gear, most of the fight was trivialized and it just turned into a survival war, rather than a DPS race.

Just stop defending mediocre guilds that complain that bosses are hard when they are doing the bosses completely wrong or getting hit by avoidable damage.

[garmeth06]

What does a bosses health have to do with anything?

You answer this in your next sentence with: "It just means the fight is longer." However, you are downplaying the difficulty of a fight "just" being longer.

And the adds can be multi-dotted or cleaved by Hunters(at least 2 at once).

Yes they can. How does this sentiment disagree with any points that I made?

And Ursoc wasn't a walk in the park for top guilds? Yes it was.

Method's first kill on Ursoc took 287 seconds on a 300 second enrage timer. This means, that with equal gear, if a guild pulled 10% less dps than method that they would have been unable to kill the boss.

Are you implying that Blizzard should have increased Ursoc's health? By how much? 25%? Would the race have been better if the "better" guild had to carry more randoms through high mythic + content for ilvl upgrades?

His DPS check was retardedly easy for being the "dps race" of the raid. We killed it on the first attempt we had nobody die to useless stuff with a few seconds to spare from Berserk.

I don't understand what your point is here. You are in a top guild. Percentile wise, you are better than 90% of the raiding player base. The amount of wipes on a dps check is fairly irrelevant, you either have the damage or you don't. Your guild is good so you had the damage.

What is the point of that statement?

Heroic and Mythic ToV should be tuned harder,

How does this relate to the topic of the thread or my post? The argument is not the instance should or should not be tuned harder, the argument is that it is tuned harder.

each boss should be a bit harder

But the difference isn't "a bit". Heroic Odyn is massively more difficult than any heroic boss on EN.

Also still about EN, Xavius was just a joke, the main fights were Il'gynoth and Cenarius, both which were really easy after you got to 870 avg ilvl and above and Blizz hotfixed to allow Vantus Runes to work in Mythic. The main issue with Cenarius for most guilds is making sure tanks survive nowadays, the DPS checks are gone(unless you try and zerg it to 35% before double sisters, but that is making the fight even more of a joke anyway). And for Il'gynoth you just have to be patient and survive both P1s, rather than try to make DPS checks which were once again trivialized with a few resets worth of gear.

Cenarius was like Xhul'horac, he was pretty tough for the people who first killed him, then as you got more gear, most of the fight was trivialized and it just turned into a survival war, rather than a DPS race.

How does the relate to whether or not ToV is overtuned on heroic?

I already agreed that Xavius was a joke, but that is irrelevant. You are attempting to justify the tuning of heroic Odyn by making a comparison to the first four mythic bosses of EN. The first four bosses or mythic EN were not easy or under-tuned compared to past raids.

Just stop defending mediocre guilds that complain that bosses are hard when they are doing the bosses completely wrong or getting hit by avoidable damage.

Why use a strawman fallacy?

[oraz4000]

Guam is awesome, Odyn awesome.
Helya is possibly the worst designed/frustrating encounter in the history of wow.

[un_known]

wouldn't say that it's overtuned, just that EN was undertuned, what you're playing now is the proper setting

[Tech614]

wouldn't say that it's overtuned, just that EN was undertuned, what you're playing now is the proper setting

Cool story bro, but it doesn't work like that.

EN whether you considered it undertuned or not is the baseline for tuning in the game, and has mythic bosses easier then H Odyn dropping gear 10 ilvl higher base. That makes HoV overtuned.

HoV can't be tuned like a completely new tier and have loot that is a waste of time without roll ups for the majority of the people capable of doing it. Mythic HoV could be tuned as hard as they want it to be, as it would still be worthwhile dropping the highest ilvl in the game atm. Heroic on the other hand can't be tuned lower then Mythic EN, that is a joke and anyone with a sensible mind would agree. I would think you will see blizzard agreeing with it shortly this week, keep an eye on the hot fix post if you think otherwise.

[deadman1]

normal

870s

wipes

So you agree that it's overtuned.

Normal ToV should be doable in 850 gear.

[meroko]

Normal is definitely overtuned. Heroic seems about right. Normal should either drop a higher item level or tone down the numbers a bit. I like the challenge personally, but normal isn't intended for me, and i cannot see many "casual" guilds downing Guarm or Helya at it's current state on normal.

[Deleted]

And so the whining begins?

[Deleted]

good enough for me mate. if i can do the first 30% im sure i can do the bloody rest

You are one of those guys who think they have beaten wow when they have done all dungeons on normal + lfr right?

[Puri]

Considering how easy Xavius must have been in the previous tier Blizzard itself said that they have learned their lesson.

Overtuning raids at the start and then nerfing them one by one is easier and much more compatible what players expect than going the other way.

[Fiftyonred]

Overdemanding and (or) underrewarding has been a (sort of) running theme this expansion for anything that's not Mythic :/

I always get the impression people who post here are rather bad. We did mythic+ runs with 810-820 groups with a 812 tank. And we just CC'd and met the timer.

Has individual and group skill all but vanished from the raiding masses who now just rely on gear, or what's going on here?

[garmeth06]

And so the whining begins?

Honestly, there isn't much whining in this thread. The strongest reaction is coming from people in defense of the objective difficulty gap between mythic EN and heroic ToV.

A 7/7 mythic raider on the competitiveWoW reddit says he personally believes heroic 3/3 ToV to be harder than mythic Il'gynoth

[DakonBlackblade]

Considering how easy Xavius must have been in the previous tier Blizzard itself said that they have learned their lesson.

Overtuning raids at the start and then nerfing them one by one is easier and much more compatible what players expect than going the other way.

Or they could, you know, tune it right on the first go and just leave it there unchanged for the rest fo the tier ? Whats the point of fights dropping lower level gear than what youre tunning the fights for ?

Honestly, there isn't much whining in this thread. The strongest reaction is coming from people in defense of the objective difficulty gap between mythic EN and heroic ToV.

A 7/7 mythic raider on the competitiveWoW reddit says he personally believes 3/3 HoV to be harder than mythic Il'gynoth

Wich is the only argument we need realy, at this point its not a hypothesis anymore, ToV is overtuned, a lot. 7/7 880+ ilevel guilds should be stomping heroic ToV, heroic mode is not aimed at them, they are not, they are finding it quite chalenging, and that is beyond concearning cause then how will a 865sh ilevel heroic only guild even have a hope at clearing the place ? The only explanation I can find to this is Blizzard tuned ToV thinking ppl will get the 5% extra dps and stuff trait in 1-2 weeks time so they baked in the 5% on the bosses tuning, wich is asinine cause then that trait serves no purpose, only serves as a hindrance to those who don't have it. Better to not have the trait at all.

[Team]

MFW when people always say "U KIDDING ME BRO, THAT RAID WAS EASY AS FUCK IF U CANT DO IT UR FUCKING SHIT HAHA"



Just because it's easy for some people that doesn't mean it's easy for everyone in existence.



It's easy talking to girls.



cwotididthere

[Hctaz]

I think they got EN Normal right. Likewise I think they got Highmaul Normal right. Yet, true to form, Kara and now Trial of Valor are overtuned relative to rewards, JUST LIKE BLACKROCK FOUNDRY was. Why can they never get subsequent releases right, after doing well on the launch content?

Nah the issue is the made the entry stuff too easy and then put the real trials in the game later.

- - - Updated - - -

Or they could, you know, tune it right on the first go and just elaveit there unchanged for the rest fo the tier ? Whats the point of fights dropping lower level gear than what youre tunning the fights for ?

The mistake is that they made getting gear of higher quality too easy and the entirety of EN was undertuned. They don't want to alienate players so they give them an easier than average raid at the start.

[KaPe]

The mistake is that they made getting gear of higher quality too easy and the entirety of EN was undertuned. They don't want to alienate players so they give them an easier than average raid at the start.

The only thing they mentioned as undertuned was Mythic Xavius, where they said they expected him to last longer.

Besides, this comes back to difficulty:reward ratio. If something is more difficult that most of Mythic EN and yet offers inferior rewards, something is wrong here. There are no tier pieces there which could make up for lower ilvls, so it's straight up worse gear for more effort. You want to increase the challenge, increase the rewards. It's BRF all over again - except BRF had tier.

[haxedagain]

"Couldn't one shot every boss in a pug. Took a few wipes. Only conclusion is overturned."

Seriously, are you guys listening to yourself? Heroic EN was so easy it should have been normal. Mythic EN was so easy it should have been Heroic.

Hopefully with TOV we're seeing Blizzard making dungeons great again. A casual guild should spend 20-30 attempts on each boss otherwise they'll be bored in a week when it's all on farm.