Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[kamuimac]

Just pugged it on normal with I'd say an average group of 870s. Took 2-3 wipes on Odyn & Guarm, Helya took about 5-6 attempts. As long as you phase transition right you shouldn't have too much trouble with Helya, but we did overgear it so the adds / tentacles did die fast. If you spent long in p2 I can imagine it being a hard encounter.

so you pugged content that should be aimed at 850 itlv groups (because it drops 855 ) in 870 itlv and didnt find it hard - what a shocking surprise indeed it must have been -_-

thats like going into hc EN with average itlv of 880 and saying then saying - gosh it was so easy hc is such a joke

Besides, this comes back to difficulty:reward ratio. If something is more difficult that most of Mythic EN and yet offers inferior rewards, something is wrong here. There are no tier pieces there which could make up for lower ilvls, so it's straight up worse gear for more effort. You want to increase the challenge, increase the rewards. It's BRF all over again - except BRF had tier.

100 % this - if they want to keep the tuning sure ofc - but make it drop 870 from normal and 885 from hc - then ofc sure keep the tuning

[Tech614]

"Couldn't one shot every boss in a pug. Took a few wipes. Only conclusion is overturned."

Seriously, are you guys listening to yourself? Heroic EN was so easy it should have been normal. Mythic EN was so easy it should have been Heroic.

Hopefully with TOV we're seeing Blizzard making dungeons great again. A casual guild should spend 20-30 attempts on each boss otherwise they'll be bored in a week when it's all on farm.

Nice try, but most people commenting are mythic raiders who have actually downed a boss or 2 on heroic in there. Not people "failing in pugs".

Sorry, but no one wants to spend double digit attempts on something that is most likely going to drop ilvl downgrades for you. That's not good tuning, and your logic is flawed at best.

[Tang0]

Pretty tough on hc. Super overturned for 10-man at least Odin is. When 5 out of 10 people have to spread to different runes all around the room and a beam of light comes at the same time - yeah... managed that, but when it's odyn's spears, runes again and hyrja with that beam as an add - gg.

Made raid larger - added even more problems.with ranged never keeping up with melee

[DakonBlackblade]

The mistake is that they made getting gear of higher quality too easy and the entirety of EN was undertuned. They don't want to alienate players so they give them an easier than average raid at the start.

Ppl keep repeating this falacy, the only thing undertuned ont that raid was mythic Xavius, everything else was were it should be. O but you can zerg Cenarius at 880 ilevel, well thanks God you can cause at 880 ilevel youre overgearing the freaking palce already, bosses should be easy as fuck at that point, that ilevel only comes after farming the whole raid or a couple of bosses for a bunch of weeks, so its not liek this is a tunning problem, bosses get easy after you do a lot of gear farming. The problem on EN was how easy it was to get gear from outside sources so youd come into the raid at too high ilevel. If they tuned the raid for those over inflated ilevels the gear dropping from the raid itself looses purpose and what you get is what we are seing now with both Karazhan and ToV, when youre in the correct gear for the place you already have more ilevel than the place drops. I suspect Nighold will be more akin to EN tough cause they'll increase the rewards from Mythic +, so ppl once again will go in at too high ilevels.

They should not be overtuning raids to compensate for excess Mythic + gear, they should be limiting Mythic + gear to maybe X times a week rather then letting ppl try those dungeons forever to see if they get a 890 titanforged, wich eventualy comes if you keep at it long enought.

[Otimus]

I always get the impression people who post here are rather bad. We did mythic+ runs with 810-820 groups with a 812 tank. And we just CC'd and met the timer.

Has individual and group skill all but vanished from the raiding masses who now just rely on gear, or what's going on here?

Overdemanding and underrewarding just means it's rewarding worse than it should for what it asks of people. Not that it's actually difficult or anything.

Rewards in general has been weird this expansion.

[InkarnateKT]

Honestly, there isn't much whining in this thread. The strongest reaction is coming from people in defense of the objective difficulty gap between mythic EN and heroic ToV.

A 7/7 mythic raider on the competitiveWoW reddit says he personally believes heroic 3/3 ToV to be harder than mythic Il'gynoth

I was just comparing the gear/skill required to kill Heroic Helya in its current form as of yesterday.

Normal ToV - DPS reqs seem tuned well, mechanics are more unforgiving than N EN.

Heroic ToV - If you are a heroic only guild, dont even bother with H Odyn yet. If you are a <7/7M guild, prepare to wipe on all 3 bosses and probably not kill Helya.

[Otimus]

I think they got EN Normal right. Likewise I think they got Highmaul Normal right. Yet, true to form, Kara and now Trial of Valor are overtuned relative to rewards, JUST LIKE BLACKROCK FOUNDRY was. Why can they never get subsequent releases right, after doing well on the launch content?

EN Normal was more or less right, I guess. The problem is that gear was given so easily and plentiful before EN was released that basically anything short of EN Heroic was pointless and unrewarding unless you literally hadn't played your character much at all until EN's release. (Hell, even heroic EN was kind of in that spot before too long for casual players. The entire reward structure for this expansion is weird. Content for it's intended audience is outmoded too easily. Though, it'll probably all fix itself by the time NH is out)

[kamuimac]

They should not be overtuning raids to compensate for excess Mythic + gear, they should be limiting Mythic + gear to maybe X times a week rather then letting ppl try those dungeons forever to se eif they get a 890 titanforged, wich eventualy comes if you keep at it long enought.

which would kill the main goal of mythic + being alternative to raiding - its not blizzard fault people have f... ocd and cant just do content they enjoy - you enjoy raiding the just f.... raid intead spaming mythic + dungeons like r...d moneky just because it drops shinies.

if anything they should up the itlv in mythic + so people had even better alternative.

[caervek]

IMO the big problem with tuning in Legion is titan-forging. I mean if you tune an encounter for people in the baseline gear then it will be faceroll for the people who have farmed +40 gear, if you tune it for them then it will be a nightmare for those in baseline gear. It's a lose lose situation that even results in players feeling disappointed when they get loot that isn't upgraded.

[Otimus]

IMO the big problem with tuning in Legion is titan-forging. I mean if you tune an encounter for people in the baseline gear then it will be faceroll for the people who have farmed +40 gear, if you tune it for them then it will be a nightmare for those in baseline gear. It's a lose lose situation that even results in players feeling disappointed when they get loot that isn't upgraded.

A whole lot could have been solved early on if they had just not turned TFing on at all until after EN Normal got put on live, and then only increased the amount things could TF up to little by little every week or so, rather than all at once, till it hit the 895 cap.

[DakonBlackblade]

which would kill the main goal of mythic + being alternative to raiding - its not blizzard fault people have f... ocd and cant just do content they enjoy - you enjoy raiding the just f.... raid intead spaming mythic + dungeons like r...d moneky just because it drops shinies.

if anything they should up the itlv in mythic + so people had even better alternative.

Can you farm gear on Mythic raids non stop till youre fully decked out on BIS gear ? No you can't, you are loot locked. So why is it OK for Mythic+ to be farmable endlesly ?

[mcbubble]

Considering that there are only 8 guilds that are 3/3 Heroic (and one of them is Nurfed, aka...Blizzard employees)....yeh I'd say its a bit overtuned.

[OrcsRLame]

Pretty hard raid so far. My guild is 4/7 mythic in EN, and we only got the first boss down in heroic ToV. Probably could have killed Guarm if we sat our weaker players sooner on Odyn, but the bosses seemed pretty solid to me. I suspect they'll be quite challenging in mythic!

[Jastall]

The difference between normal and Heroic from EN to ToV doesn't feel right for the relatively paltry increase in ilvl. If we went from EN to Nighthold, the bumped up difficulty would make sense, as that place drops much better loot. But the first two bosses of ToV drop loot that's only 5 ivls above EN, while being harder than several EN bosses on a higher difficulty level. Normal Odyn alone is probably harder than anything in Heroic save perhaps Cenarius, and Guarm is a tigher DPS check than heroic Ursoc; given that he drops loot that's a full 10 ilvls lower, that feels a bit wrong.

I'm not talking about Mythic, I don't care about Mythic. Blizzard can make that as balls-burstingly hard as they please and make world first guilds wipe 200 times to each and every boss in the place. But Normal and Heroic (especially the former) are supposed to be more casual difficulties, yet sure don't feel like it so far. If nothing else, the effort/reward ratio means more casual raiders are possibly going to abandon ToV fairly fast.

[melodramocracy]

I think they got EN Normal right. Likewise I think they got Highmaul Normal right. Yet, true to form, Kara and now Trial of Valor are overtuned relative to rewards, JUST LIKE BLACKROCK FOUNDRY was. Why can they never get subsequent releases right, after doing well on the launch content?

My guess is that they tend to underestimate how quickly players will try to gear up at the start of an expansion, then move the needle a bit too far the other way in response.

Or, they just want first tier raids to be a bit more introductory, which would also make sense from a design standpoint.

[Deleted]

Seen a few mins ago in Dalaran:

"LF Tank & Heal for Trial - only with PTR Exp"

[Deleted]

Know whats overtuned? Mythic+ 6. It's already a pain in the ass or at least way more challenging then EN HC for full EN HC geared groups and rewards 855 lulz... The whole difficulty/reward ratio is screwed.

[KingKongor]

yeah it was pretty hard but that is nice.
Felt good when she died even on normal

[Syld]

yeah it was pretty hard but that is nice.
Felt good when she died even on normal

Then you look at the shitty loot and it doesn't feel that great. I'm all for hard content, but the effort/reward ratio is complete bullshit on this expansion.

[Deleted]

Harder or easier then Karazhan?