[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Armakus]

Well... nighthold isn't that far away now. Maybe those haste values will be atainable.

Grats on the legendary. I got the filty boots instead. Yay...running a bit faster...

I just got those boots last night, too. It's funny, I just finished a conversation with a good friend who was telling me about the feeling of getting a great legendary and a shitty one. My response was "All legendaries are better than what I have now! I'll be happy regardless!"

Spoiler: I wasn't happy regardless.

[snackfeat]

Thoughts on these two necks?

875 Xavius - 691 haste / 1325 crit
860 Dungeon - 1252 haste / 653 vers

Do you think having the majority of the budget spent on the better stat (haste) is worth dropping 15 ilvls? This is also my only source of versatility.

Depends on your current haste level.

[Armakus]

Tried to semi-patiently explain to a fellow Ret in LFD today why other GBlessings barring GBoM suck.
/Votekicked.

Huh then.
People must be dragged to the Truth no matter the cost or the casualities.

Not really disagreeing with you, but I've found a handful of situations where the healer for our 5 man mythic team could make better use of wisdom. Says he can spam his quick, expensive heals without ever having to think about it with wisdom up.

[Tonyman64]

Not really disagreeing with you, but I've found a handful of situations where the healer for our 5 man mythic team could make better use of wisdom. Says he can spam his quick, expensive heals without ever having to think about it with wisdom up.

Your healer is wrong. Over the course of a 1 minute fight, Wisdom gives 4% of your healer's total mana.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Not really disagreeing with you, but I've found a handful of situations where the healer for our 5 man mythic team could make better use of wisdom. Says he can spam his quick, expensive heals without ever having to think about it with wisdom up.

And if your tank said he could drop his defenses if you were to put Kings on him, would you believe it, too?

[Deleted]

So, as far as I have sim'd today and checked the last pages here, I came to the following conclusion:

(I'll try to sum it up)

1. There are people telling me, that getting 21% haste aka certain breakpoints is a good thing.
2. There are people telling me, that they have 30% haste and haste is still their biggest stat.
3. There is this new "crit/versat" build coming up (after having some "good" amount of haste (let it be 21% or 31%).
4. There is this new "Go for mastery, for m+ since you will have the mastery debuff up 90% of the time"
5. "Go for this stat and that stat, but before you do, sim your character because it might be different"
6. Point 5 brings us back to point 1 and 2, where everybody is simulating his character and gets different results.

Don't get me wrong, but it looks like nobody has a damn clue what he is doing here. Plebs are used to come here, look in this guide, copy a pawn string and stick for it for 2 patches. But in this expansion, it looks like every paladin is different, depending on what trinkets or items/seconds he has. Moreover, every secondary stats has some benefit, which can be higher or lower in certain cases. This means, if you go for 10% haste and Mastery/Versatility build(aka worst build), you will perform pretty bad, but if you just go for highest itemlevel, you should end up with 20% haste. Going for more and more haste, will end up in having way lower crit, maybe no versatility and some mastery, which is the so called worst stat.

(Having 860 ilvl or 885 is a huge difference here)

Moreover, if you're simulating with your best gear and you try to switch some items for 1-3% difference in the secodaries, aka changing haste for crit and backwards, you will only see a difference of maybe few k DPS. You might take that build with more DPS, but when you're fighting with 30% Haste, Heroism and fully stacked Crusade, plus having random procs of BW and tFoJ, the speed is so damn fast, that you will probably do mistakes unless you're 100% familiar with it. So why do you still go for more haste?

Its basically 2 months into this expac and we're already near this "soft-softcap" for haste and you will reach this good amount of haste if you have 875+ gear, but now with trial of valor releasing, how easy will it be to actually get that 885 loot and at this point we will basically reach another point where the itemlevel decides what to wear. And this is how it is intended by blizzard.

[Tonyman64]

*snip*Don't get me wrong, but it looks like nobody has a damn clue what he is doing here. *snip*

I think it's not that we don't know what we're doing, but that we're trying to provide general advice in an expansion where there isn't a lot of good general advice (for ret paladins at least). You also stated a couple of things that misrepresent the advice given.
Stacking mastery is good for mythic+, only with a different build than the standard ret build. It's not that unusual for talent choice to affect stat weights.
Crit vs. Haste vs. Versatility does potentially have breakpoints. Although how useful those are is debatable. As always, and particularly with this expansion, sims are the way to go. I'm glad you identified that switching around all your gear is, usually, not going to make much of a difference. I've mentioned it a couple of times in this thread, but for people who aren't going to sim their character, the best advice is probably that haste, vers, and crit are similar enough in weight that it's not going to matter much. There may be a point where haste falls off with certain gear and talent choices (when I sim secondary stat plots, eventually haste falls down to mastery levels depending on number of targets), but you need a lot of haste to reach that point.

[Deleted]

Problem is that we have plenty of gear choices atm and u can easily fix any secondary stats combo with any ilvl attainable.
Late WoD was kinda the same with the difference of mastery being king. Rest would value a lot and actually everyone would recommend simming before choosing the next item upgrade.
Atm i have dropped simming since it is too much workload for a tiny piece upgrade. I am just using logs, some boss fights , kill timers that look like my guilds', exclude players that have legend cloak since it is a defo damage upgrade and their results could be greatly affected by it and work around their ilvl and stat picks. Not a theorycrafting proccess am afraid but the closest observational trial on top world class paladins one can do.
The workload of a proper theorycraft regarding speccs/stats/relics for various fight types and times is huge and i dont think anyone would bother doing so. We have to be happy that some people bothered enough to give us these general guides for reference.

[Vuagnon]

How are we supposed to deal with delaying or not delaying WoA upon the usual 1 hp remaining from TfoJ proc in the heat of events? Delaying the ability for a couple of gcds means a dps loss because of the way it works. I mostly tend to hit BoJ and TV to get rid of it but stacking procs just make it worse.

[Torchbringer]

How are we supposed to deal with delaying or not delaying WoA upon the usual 1 hp remaining from TfoJ proc in the heat of events? Delaying the ability for a couple of gcds means a dps loss because of the way it works. I mostly tend to hit BoJ and TV to get rid of it but stacking procs just make it worse.

it's ok to overcap with WOA, how important it is to use on CD depends on fight length though. For example if it was a 4:30 long fight you need your WoA's with zero delay or you wont get in a full 3rd wings with them sync'd together.

[Wrecktangle]

What issue do you see with FCM? When I've simmed it with multiple targets it still does very well.

There's no denying its value in EN or on bosses in M+s. What I am more curious about is what I could use in its stead, or if I do keep using it for M+s, what trinkets best supplement it.

[Deleted]

There's no denying its value in EN or on bosses in M+s. What I am more curious about is what I could use in its stead, or if I do keep using it for M+s, what trinkets best supplement it.

Horn of valor? That one works on AoE aswell for sure.

As for the supplement, something that sims well i suppose. Stat sticks are good if high level. Kara last boss trinket is good, wich is the one im using.

[arrav]

Just got into the habit of simming more often when I get gear, I just wanted to ask. Is there any point in simming divine purpose, or is crusade always the best option?

[Deleted]

Just got into the habit of simming more often when I get gear, I just wanted to ask. Is there any point in simming divine purpose, or is crusade always the best option?

Not really. Crusade is too good next to the other choices atm.

But it is fated to be redesigned unfortunely. Unless we get a miracle and it becomes baseline.

[Ryuji]

The only talents it seems you'll be switching around at the moment are the Zeal/Fires/GJ tier and the BoV/BoW/DH tier for DPS stuff. Maybe Divine Intervention to help prevent deaths, though RIP second charge on Divine Steed if you do that.

[Argos]

Got an ilvl 880 fire relic w/ Flash of Light trait and my current fire relic is ilvl 865 fire relic w/ Avenging Wrath Trait. Is it worth losing your best trait for better ilvl?

[urw]

Got an ilvl 880 fire relic w/ Flash of Light trait and my current fire relic is ilvl 865 fire relic w/ Avenging Wrath Trait. Is it worth losing your best trait for better ilvl?

it's not according to the guide on page one.

Increase by 15ilvl relic is - 1,14% dps increase
865 relic with AW is 1,84% increase of base ilvl from the relic.

Still I would sim it on mrrobot and check for myself.

[Wrecktangle]

Horn of valor? That one works on AoE aswell for sure.

As for the supplement, something that sims well i suppose. Stat sticks are good if high level. Kara last boss trinket is good, wich is the one im using.

I dont' think kara trinket is very good for M+... You're referring to EOC right? not NB trinket?

[Deleted]

I dont' think kara trinket is very good for M+... You're referring to EOC right? not NB trinket?

EoC yup. Very good for raiding. On high mythic+ potencialy good on bosses aswell. But on trash you can use something different. Perhaps the tentacle one from il'gynoth? I forget the name. Otherwise can't go wrong with a stat stick with crit or versatility (or haste depending on the rest of your gear).

Theres the one from maw of souls aswell. Lots of people use that. Memento of angerboda its called i think. Never dropped for me on high ilvl.

[Deleted]

Hey guys, im fairly new to ret, and i have stumbled upon something rather strange. It's about Gbom, the dps results that i get on skada are significantly higher than logs of the same fight. when i analyse the log it seems that there is no damage source of GboM, yet there is a dmg source to be seen in skada. I also tried recount, and recount also does not show the blessing of might dmg. anyone knows what i could do about this?