Talent system is a failure

[Corpsefury]

Choice is an illusion no matter what or where you are in the universe in game or in real life.

[klogaroth]

None of what you said disproves the fact that are optimal builds for given circumstances.
If your goal is to do the most damage, you will use that build.

What you're saying is akin to deciding to raid Mythic EN without pots/food/buffs because you CBA to go buy them.
Just because getting consumables is annoying, doesn't mean not having them is viable in comparison.

What I'm saying is not intended to disprove that fact. It's to say that for many players the talent system has completely failed since it takes changing talents to a level equal to and in some cases beyond the more expensive raid consumables.

Let me ask you a question - have you done LFR this expansion? Every time you've been in have you used a flask, 375 food, a rune, pre-pots and pots, health potions and the optimal talents for each fight? Hell did you even use a vantus rune?

Not having consumables IS viable in comparison depending upon the content you are doing. What the current system has added to that is having flat out useless talents is now going to be accepted in a wider number of places. Where before if someone was asked to change talents they would have to do it now you're just as likely to see someone say they haven't got any tomes and that they'd need to hearth - followed by "let's just pull the boss anyway, sod it". Depending on difficulty of course.

Take a look at the number of destro locks that are using wreak havoc on single target fights in normal and heroic Emerald Nightmare. Because it doesn't matter. You'll kill the boss anyway, it's mostly not tuned to require optimal talents. Before though you could pick up optimal talents considerably easier, you could experiment and mess around with talent builds. That's not something I've seen as much of now though.

The message that the current system sends out is that changing talents on a fight by fight basis is something that only mythic raiders should do. The fact you lump it in there with pots and mention raiding mythic EN specifically would suggest that that's maybe how you view it as well. That's not a message that I think the talent system should be sending out.

[Mawnix]

Hey there, started at the kickoff of BC.
Tell me when exactly would you switch talents around?
When would you go to your class trainer. Pay a ramping up gold cost to swap your tree around. And go back to the raid?
Frost Mages want that slow on Blizzard, or 4% added crit.
Wow, what a difference!

People change talents way more often nowadays. The system is way more interesting.

I think my post has been incredibly misinterpreted because I'm completely for the new system.

[Deleted]

People who prefer the new talent system never played a true RPG in their entire life or they hate the RPG experience.
This new system is a stab in the heart on customization and hybrid specs and freedom to be unique from everyone else.

It's just a system so Blizzard can make the game played the way they wanted and not the other way around.

[Purpleisbetter]

how is that not cookie cutter? Situation is X so you pick Y. That is cookie cutter. How is that fun? How is that engaging? It is an example of a class that has a lot more swapping...but i don't see that as engaging game play....i see that as healer X justed DC, and the resto druid dont have tome and everyoen is cheap so /dbm why he hearths respecs and gets another summon.

in the end if you baked them all in the choice is always on yar bar for the situation that arises.

how is that cookie cutter in the first place?

Did a pug, 2 healing, we needed more tank healing, i went germination and mastery set. Not the usual inner peace/haste crit set.
My last guild run we suffered some lack of burst heal on our last cenarius run i went inner peace and horn of valor trinket instead the usual spring blossom.

The "cookie cutter" build and talents wouldn't have worked in those instances.

I've the luxury of a well balanced talent tree and as such, the talent system works 101% fine.

spec specific.

[baskev]

The cake is a lie
The reason Blizzard gave us: because there is always a "cookie cutter build"
Is a lie.

The true reason is because people are always coming up with crazy hybrid talents that are overpowered and viable and it required constant tweeking and balance changes every week to balance the game.

Truth

Yup....just yup.
Some classes have a row of talents that are decent to each other and work for different situations.
But most rows are like:

1 clunky very situation talent, 1 under powered wtf is it doing here talent, and Hallelujah talent.

But the reasons is not always what you said shadowpunkz. Its sometimes the weird choices that they make with the talents. Talents that are hard to use, or are now doing to low damage/healing/etc but if you boost them they become OP. And some talents should be standard talents. Druids used to be able to cc/slow etc a decent bit. Now we have 1 talent we can pick and 1 single cc that breaks with damage it gets.

But in their defense they are going to look at it. And it has been FAR worse.

Think the one i hate the most right now is the prot paladin one:
the tier 1.
1 is good for specific fights, 1 is fucking awsome dps ( with artifacts + relics even more). 1 is just lack luster bad.

[Banquetto]

I gotta say, I like having the option to select "optimal" active talents on my main character, but just grab passives on my less-played alts to keep it simple.

[Kokolums]

You have two options:

1. Allow cookie cutter builds to exist
2. Have 2 or more essential skills in the tree where a toon can only pick 1. Guilds will be forced two recruit duplicate copies of that class to cover those essential skillls.

You must pick one.

[Flurryfang]

Old talent trees were removed because there was never a "choice" there was always a optimal build.

Its been years with the new talent system, the goal was to give players a choice and step away from "cookie cutter builds"....and really besides a few instance its been 90% the same...there was an optimal build and you ignore the rest.

So in that sense...the talent system is a failure.

I don't want the developers wasting time "trying to make a each talent tier" a viable choice. Its time to bake the talents in...re-balance and move on. This feature has failed to its original goal.

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: i am not advocating to bring back the old system...just the new system do not solve the old system flaws of cookie cutter builds. Please note cookie cutter builds can change per boss or per style pve/pvp/dungeon etc...the issue is choice is an illusion.

EDIT #2 from a post on page 10:



regarding the last line in the above quote... i am also saying it is impossible to do so **insert three xpac of blizzard trying to do this**.

It is working to a limited extent. Sure, it is not perfect, but few systems are, yet many people are using different talents.

If you keep looking at mythic raiders and heroic guilds, then yes, there is a cookie cutter build, but outside of that, people are choosing very different talents. I am personally using 3 talents on my raiding rogue, who is not "the best" talent I just like the playstyle better, which is why many people often will take the weaker talent, because it speaks more to them

[Shaktard]

I think the talents have never been this good. Of course there will always be an "optimal build" but theres some actual choice now.

[Nurvus]

Does the current SYSTEM have a higher potential to offer real choices? Yes.
Is Blizzard making good use of that potential? No.

To be fair on Blizzard, there have been multiple occasions since the new Talent system was implemented where a single SPEC had various viable & fun builds.
That just didn't happen with the old Talent System apart from a few classes like Mages.

Classic has the huge problem of requiring Blizzard to balance "deep optional talents" with "early optional talents from other trees".
The new System not only solves that but also allows Blizzard to go crazy with certain Talents because if there are 2 Talents they want to design that are too strong when combined, they can just place them both in the same Row.

Still, their notion of "real choice" has been borderline stupid...

[Deleted]

I agree, they're an absolute disaster. Half of the 'talents' consist of baseline abilities that were stolen from us and the other half are boring passive 'talents'.

Also this. I don't see what is good about for example losing siphon life or haunt just to get it back via talents or shadowburn, ascendance, stampede, camouflage,etc...

Half those talents are previous baseline abilities and most artificat perks are just perks from the old talent system with boring +% damage increase. How uncreative and boring. Blizzard developers, except the art team, have lost all mojo in regards to class design and gameplay. They never really had much talent with the gameplay design since the beginning of the game to be fair, they always relied on their raiding experience but other components lack and fail hard.

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Also fuck min maxers, optimal builds shouldn't be the core design of this game. This is why we can't have more classes or more customization in talents. Raiders are lost when they don't know what is the "best of the best".

If we could get rid of this mentality and make the game feel like a game, WoW would be 1000 more fun.

[Deleted]

Er, nope.
Firstly, well-designed talent system allows people to make choices. For example, choosing slightly higher dps vs. simpler rotation.

Agreed, but there are cases where simpler rotation provide higher DPS, which means that by your definition the system is a failure

Secondly, there aren't quite so many cases where a talent provides bigger DPS exclusively and there is a competing talent on the same tier which also provides bigger DPS exclusively. One will usually offer slightly better dps for the cost of more complex rotation. Say, Stampede vs. Killer Cobra where one gives you extra button press while another makes Bestial Wrath develop an extra relationship with Aspect of the Wild. Or, say Barrage vs. Murder of Crows when one earns the hunters a whole new era of hate from everybody else and the other requires very careful timing on trash.

There should be no cases, just a few ones it is not acceptable FOR ME.

Over/underperforming combinations don't require fundamental redesign of the talent system or its complete removal, just adjustments to specific skills, so that, say, Machine Gun rotation does not completely trump any other frost DK options.

Again agreed, but for whatever the reason, those adjustments you talk about, never reach ALL talent rows.

[Deleted]

Agreed, but there are cases where simpler rotation provide higher DPS, which means that by your definition the system is a failure

Really? Which ones? I don't follow all the stuff too closely these days.

There should be no cases, just a few ones it is not acceptable FOR ME.

That's your problem. Just like, say, Blizzard's handling of flight post-MoP was my problem which I have solved by cancelling my subscription.

Again agreed, but for whatever the reason, those adjustments you talk about, never reach ALL talent rows.

Of course not. People who criticise talents are not exactly the most likely fast and permanent unsubbers.

[Banard]

how is that cookie cutter in the first place?

Did a pug, 2 healing, we needed more tank healing, i went germination and mastery set. Not the usual inner peace/haste crit set.
My last guild run we suffered some lack of burst heal on our last cenarius run i went inner peace and horn of valor trinket instead the usual spring blossom.

The "cookie cutter" build and talents wouldn't have worked in those instances.

I've the luxury of a well balanced talent tree and as such, the talent system works 101% fine.

spec specific.

So you have different gear sets based on the type of healing....that has nothing to do with the talent system.You use different abilities on the type of healing you are doing..if you do job A you do B, if you do Job C you do D....

Same as dps... single talents vs aoe talents.

How will baking abilities in effect your game style? You still have access too all the abilities. All it does is remove this weird feature to "hearth" or "use a tome".
WoW has evolved to the point where talents are antique...like the old Glyph Window of major and minor glyphs.

If you remove the system, bake abilities in (or back in for alot of them) it will not have any impact to the play style at all. Another forum highlighted a good point....and i'll go one step further.

This talent system failed when blizzard started removing BASE ABILITIES from specs/classes and putting it in the talent system.

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Of course not. People who criticise talents are not exactly the most likely fast and permanent unsubbers.

The point i am trying to make ....is no one really cares...who in there right mind will unsub because of the talent system. It is not engaging...

I for one have changed 1 talent once in 2 months...I am far from a special snowflake so where there one there are 1000's.

I am under the impression no one really cares...if its a small portion of the game...if people log in and not even think about it....Why have it?

Do we want blizzard to spend time developing it more? I trying to argue i rather see it all baked in to the classes/specs and see them focus more on class/spec balance. I think removing talents would make this easier.

[purebalance]

In general, on average across the game, people ARE switching talents more than they ever used to, and that's the only point that really matters here. That was the entire intention of getting rid of the old bad trees. There will ALWAYS be outliers.

The only thing better about the old system was leveling. Not a good enough reason to move forward with a inferior system.

That was not the intent as when it was implemented you couldn't do so on the fly and they made it harder to do today. So no you are in fact wrong. The very fact that you MUST change talents pretty much every boss is a failure of the system.

[Schizoide]

That was not the intent as when it was implemented you couldn't do so on the fly and they made it harder to do today. So no you are in fact wrong. The very fact that you MUST change talents pretty much every boss is a failure of the system.

Totally right. If they don't change talents to remove or at least heavily ameliorate the HUGE incentive to switch all the time, they should allow players to switch whenever they want out of combat, just like pre-Legion (and Diablo3). That would be fine.

[Deleted]

The point i am trying to make ....is no one really cares...who in there right mind will unsub because of the talent system. It is not engaging...

I for one have changed 1 talent once in 2 months...I am far from a special snowflake so where there one there are 1000's.

I am under the impression no one really cares...if its a small portion of the game...if people log in and not even think about it....Why have it?

Do we want blizzard to spend time developing it more? I trying to argue i rather see it all baked in to the classes/specs and see them focus more on class/spec balance. I think removing talents would make this easier.

Engaging? I change my talents from time to time, about twice a month on average. Each time it is a meaningful change for me as it makes me learn a new rotation or a new tank trick. It makes the game more engaging to me as there is something new to learn and see how it impacts my gameplay. Is it too complex? Is it too weak? Does it work with my resources? There isn't a whole lot of gameplay there but surely more than in class order hall.

My tank's plate armor is something I don't think about unless xmogging. Let's remove armor types.
My toons' jewellery is something I only think about when something drops, it's 30ilvls up and not an upgrade. This is when I *think* about jewellery, so A LOT less often than every time I log in. Let's remove jewellery.

[Menz]

The older talent trees also gave the sense of growth. Those passives though are not that significant did change how you feel about toon when you level him. Having one talent point to spend every 15 levels does not feel as rewarding.

The sense of growth is important in MMO.

[Monkeymoo]

I vastly prefer the MoP/WoD talent system over the old version. People say getting a point every level was so engaging but I never found it to be. I found it tedious gaining something like 1% haste 3 times to just try and get anywhere meaningful. My only complaint about the Legion system is the retarded tome to change your talents.