How can someone pick Altruis over Kayn?

[Zulkhan]

I mean they did try, but then Akama says he will kill you. The time for negotiations left.

Yeah, the whole point is that Akama himself had no intention to negotiate with Kayn, knowing well where his loyalties lied. Ofcourse he's more willing to cooperate with Altruis given his history of plotting against Illidan.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Yeah, the whole point is that Akama himself had no intention to negotiate with Kayn, knowing well where his loyalties lied. Ofcourse he's more willing to cooperate with Altruis given his history of plotting against Illidan.

which is just another bad writing thin on Blizzard's end. The player character would have no reason to give two shits about akama, to him/her hes another treacherous fool like altruis

[Melsiren]

which is just another bad writing thin on Blizzard's end. The player character would have no reason to give two shits about akama, to him/her hes another treacherous fool like altruis

Like I get you don't like Altruis, that's fine but the player characters views are up to you as the individual, and Blizzard agrees, hence the choices.

Now, there's the MMO aspect that muddies the entire choice factor, which could have easily been circumvented by Korvas being at Illidari Stand instead of Kayn/Altruis.

I don't know if I'd call it bad writing on their end in this case, more as just a bad MMORPG design. I blame it on making the player character more important than they ever needed to be.


Let's hope the 7.2 Order Hall story update finds some way to end the Kayn/Altruis issue that is both satisfying and makes sense.

[Zulkhan]

which is just another bad writing thin on Blizzard's end. The player character would have no reason to give two shits about akama, to him/her hes another treacherous fool like altruis

I guess that would be consequential from the choice of picking Altruis. You basically roleplay a Demon Hunter willing to take a former betrayer as second-in-command for whatever reason, so it kinda makes sense that you also give a shit about Akama.

Like I get you don't like Altruis, that's fine but the player characters views are up to you as the individual, and Blizzard agrees, hence the choices.

To an extent yes, but most of the times Blizzard itself goes up of its way to deny choices and simply write our characters as they're supposed to be based on their own views. And indeed, when it comes to playable Demon Hunters, given their history and background, Altruis is a weird choice. It makes more sense from the perspective of the player but less from the perspective of the playable character.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Let's hope the 7.2 Order Hall story update finds some way to end the Kayn/Altruis issue that is both satisfying and makes sense.

Kayn sits down with Altruis watches the sunset with him and then shoots him?

[Deleted]

Altrius is that type of guy who tries to make peace with everyone but fails everytime.(Hey Akama wanna join? No! Pls we're good now you know Im good we're in this together)
Kayn is the guy that gets to the point and gets the job done.I vote for that guy.(Hey Akama wanna join? No! Ok its my way then)

[Combatbutler]

Like I get you don't like Altruis, that's fine but the player characters views are up to you as the individual, and Blizzard agrees, hence the choices.

Not really no, it gives you the illusion of choice, similar to the warlock questline, you waltz into the black temple, it is attacked akama asks you for help and as the good player you are you ditch him and rob the ashtongue blind, while getting your green fire.

Your personal choices matter little to nothing in wow.

[shadowmatrix]

I always pick Altruis, because i dont see how Illidan was not evil. And its really funny how blizzard is convincing us, that he had noble intentions.

Illidan does have noble intentions but, just like Sargeras, he decided that the ends justify any and all means no matter how evil and destructive they are. They allowed their goal to move them away from lawful good and slowly steadily towards lawful evil. It's like watching someone making rules to uphold the law become more and more of a dictator.

[Koryn123]

Is there any functional gameplay difference between Akama and Shade of Akama as order hall followers?

If not, I'll enjoy Shade of Akama. Some nice un-peaceful mary sue-esque stuff there. Not afraid to get their hands dirty.

[Halyon]

Yeah, the whole point is that Akama himself had no intention to negotiate with Kayn, knowing well where his loyalties lied. Ofcourse he's more willing to cooperate with Altruis given his history of plotting against Illidan.

Negotiating with Kayn isn't negotiating with yourself, who can easily be excused to be more level-headed, and there have been uneasy alliances before... Given what's at stake, it should've been possible, and like I said, at the cost of doing some more quests to convince him.

which is just another bad writing thin on Blizzard's end. The player character would have no reason to give two shits about akama, to him/her hes another treacherous fool like altruis

I agree with this sentiment, however, choice availability for those who doesn't...like I'd pick Kayn and Shade voluntarily on my belf, but my nelf would try to negotiate for Akama voluntarily helping, even if he'd probably nag about it constantly.

- - - Updated - - -

Is there any functional gameplay difference between Akama and Shade of Akama as order hall followers?

If not, I'll enjoy Shade of Akama. Some nice un-peaceful mary sue-esque stuff there. Not afraid to get their hands dirty.

Shade and real Akama are entirely identical on the practical side of things, different dialogue and aesthetics on the fluff side.

[Koryn123]

Shade and real Akama are entirely identical on the practical side of things, different dialogue and aesthetics on the fluff side.

Good. Shade of Akama all the way then. I'll enjoy enslaving the sole survivor of the Illidari's leadership, who kicked Kael'thas off the single 1-person lifeboat of the Burning Crusade ship, and tied a huge anchor to Vashj to pull her down into some boiling water so she also died in the water of the Burning Crusade ocean.

[Kayb]

I picked Alturis. B/c he wasnt a blind sheep, he could think for himself, and he saw a corruption and made a choice based on it.

This.

10chars

[Deleted]

(...)

2. That's the deal, for Altruis, those guys under Illidan weren't his friends anymore:
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=10668/against-the-illidari
Illidan "is not who he once was, however. His soul has been corrupted by power, his mind has been twisted by defeat. He has become what I am sworn to destroy and his pet servants, the Illidari, are as much of an abomination as any demon of the Burning Legion."
Altruis saw Illidan and the others as no better than the Legion when we find him. He sends us to kill one of his lieutanent, which is ... a nathrezim?! For Altruis, he joined Illidan to fight the Legion. But Illidan started recruiting demons and treating others like his slaves until, to those unaware of his plan, he started looking very similar to the Legion.

Furthermore, regarding Varedis, it would seem Altruis also sees him through the prism of night elf vs blood elf kind of deal.
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=10646/illidans-pupil
"Most of them, Varedis included, pursue power for its own sake. That power will consume them, for they are not driven by the pure fire that burns inside a true demon hunter's heart."
Due to Illidan being a shit leader, divisions among his troops were created. Illidan brought some of the greatest enemies together (night elves - blood elves; broken - fel orcs; broken/night elves/blood elves - demons) and then expected them to all play nice while he ignored them. It didn't go like that, which, considering the animosities some might have had for thousands of years, is understandable.
Altruis started seeing demons and blood elves and felt that Illidan and those following him had become corrupt, they did not represent the original ideals Illidan had displayed in the beginning. For him, it was a bunch of demons, fel orcs and corrupted blood elves holding the reigns of the entire operation.

And this is mostly due to Illidan's bad leadership and his secret hoarding.

Lastly, Altruis sent us, the adventurers, to kill Illidan's demon hunter trainer. And we succeded. And then we took the Book of Fel names and took it to where it could be destroyed. Again, the Book of Fel Names and the way Varedis had used it was proof to Altruis that Varedis was corrupt, he even says when you bring the book to him:
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=10650/return-to-the-aldor
"This book... I could use it to increase my power tenfold... No! It would end up corrupting my very soul, this I am sure of. Return to those who sent you here, <name>."

I will agree on one thing however. For the most part, for a demon hunter it would not make much sense in trusting Altruis. As a player outside, it does make sense for me, as a warrior, to do so. For I can see his reasoning. But to a demon hunter, not that much. There would be a few that would follow him, but most would not.

3. True, it is a good plan to force everyone together... but it's also a good plan in turning everyone against you until you succeed, which is exactly what happened.

As for Akama, you don't see his point still. Some half-demon helped liberate his Temple of Karabor! Yay! But that same guy started delaying the return more and more, from a certainty to a vague possibility, started bringing in demons and keeping secrets from the Broken (Akama only knew of some important things with the help of the fact that his Broken were ignored by many as being some sort of servants or beggars). Yes, the Sha'tar rejected Akama and his kind, but he didn't fully reject them. And now he sees himself as allied with those that kill the draenei. Someone who uses the souls of his allies just to power a random portal.

Yes, those that went to Illidan went for revenge and stuff, I agree on your points there.

Nobody cared about fel orcs, true. But then, fel orcs were allies of Illidan. And some were kidnapped Mag'har orcs transformed into fel orcs. So some had been turned against their will, yet still joined Illidan. And he simply used their souls as batteries for the portal. What of others? In the end, if fel orcs are nothing to Illidan, what of his other allies? Well... Illidan also uses Broken souls to fuel his portal, and demon souls. In fact, the only troops that seemed to be "above" the rest in his eyes (heh, his eyes) were his demon hunters. So, besides demon hunters, all other troops Illidan commanded were seen by him as simple toys to be used as he pleases. There's no wonder that Akama plotted against him, Kael'thas left him etc.

As for Maiev's troops, it is unknown. As far as I remember, the book doesn't make it clear. Maiev had amassed a large force of draenei and "others" in her force. Of them all, only Maiev survived. And only because Illidan wanted to torture her (another mistake he made, he should have just used her soul for the portal and that's it).

And yes, I agree, it was stupid of Illidan to abandon his allies and leave others drift through his secrets. It is said he did it because he didn't want the Legion to know and thought that Legion leaders might probe the minds of his other commanders so it's better to say nothing. But ultimately he said too little to convince them.
I kind of liked Vashj and Kael'thas before one was simply killed with no more lore (let's be honest, we hear naga are draining the lakes, we go there and kill her, we have more lore about Vashj in Cataclysm than in BC) and one became some Legion puppet that I kill twice per week for two different mounts.

Yes, on Garrosh I agree. Another point here is that there actually was that short leader story of him which explain why he ended hating the Alliance. Basically he gets to Orgrimmar and is amazed until some random orc lady (who we kill in Grizzly Hills, as Horde players I might add) tells him that all that wealth is actually only thanks to their allies as due to Thrall and the Alliance the orcs live in a desert acting like beggars and suddenly Garrosh is outraged.

And with Fandral, I also don't understand why he chose that island, I mean, the whole deal was about being close to the Well of Eternity, and Nighthaven had been the sort of capital of the night elves for so long because Moonglade was close to Hyjal but... Teldrassil is actually quite far away.

Lastly yes, that's why I didn't expand here on the Jaina stuff, since saying anything about Theramore/Jaina usually hyjacks a thread.

What the hell have you been reading? Illidan didn't know who will fail in becoming demon hunter and he didn't let any of them die just for fun, they either died from the fel energy or killed themselves from the maddening visions they had, he put guards outside their rooms so that he will prevent suicides

I remember him saying to Vandel that he knew he would succeed. So he didn't know 100%, but he had an idea for most part.

[Ickz]

I chose Altruis because he wasn't the obvious choice. Kayn is the typical boring and loyal follower.

[Deleted]

I remember him saying to Vandel that he knew he would succeed. So he didn't know 100%, but he had an idea for most part.

but to say that Illidan reveled in their agony and suffering is stupid come on even himself had doubts about his methods he didn't like what he was doing

[Deleted]

So, the Illidan x Kayn Fanboys are salty because we chose the Renegade instead of their beloved Uke-Chan?

[wonderlust]

Kayn is a blind follower (no pun intended). Altruis is someone who is willing to question things no matter what, and will not do things he considers to be wrong just because he was ordered to. He's exactly the kind of person that I admire in real life. So of course I picked him.

[Qualia]

Kayn is a blind follower (no pun intended). Altruis is someone who is willing to question things no matter what, and will not do things he consider wrong just because he was ordered to.
He's exactly the kind o f person that I admire in real life. So of course I picked him.

Yeah, I totally agree. Altruis will not do things he considers wrong just because he was ordered to. He just do things that are wrong because he wanted to, like planning to murder the ones considered him their own kin and comrade out of his own misunderstanding without even discussing the problems with the one in charge (and now it turned out that he was wrong all along, and his actions caused more harms in the long run than good, but doesn't matter!). Very admirable and a great choice of follower for a leader.

[wonderlust]

Yeah, I totally agree. Altruis will not do things he considers wrong just because he was ordered to. He just do things that are wrong because he wanted to, like planning to murder the ones considered him their own kin and comrade out of his own misunderstanding without even discussing the problems with the one in charge (and now it turned out that he was wrong all along, and his actions caused more harms in the long run than good, but doesn't matter!). Very admirable and a great choice of follower for a leader.

That doesn't change anything, since I'm talking exclusively about the personalities of the two possible leaders, while you're talking about Blizzard retconning Illidan into becoming the golden boy to the detriment of characters that opposed him while he was being written as a villain.

[TheWindWalker]

Kayn is a blind follower (no pun intended). Altruis is someone who is willing to question things no matter what, and will not do things he considers to be wrong just because he was ordered to. He's exactly the kind of person that I admire in real life. So of course I picked him.

The issue is he had you kill people who were fighting the Legion, thus heavily weakening the force you were a member of and now lead. Chosing him is literally chosing "I think we should screw around and maybe in-fight a bit more often" over "kill yourself if it will save the universe."