Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[BannedForViews]

sorry but having 870 doesnt mean ur a good player, any average player atm has 870.

I don't think you know what average means.

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The amount of raider elitists here is hilarious, they complain that everyone wants it to be too easy, while in reality its impossible for anyone below 870 average to take out heroic Odyn, and he drops 870.

Oh and you realize you are playing world of warcraft? Not csgo pro level, this game has the actual skill floor of tetris, stop being buttclenched every time someone makes a reasonable argument about difficulty.

Tetris is actually pretty hard man. Level 10 back in the day, that shit flew out fast!

[Deja Thoris]

Personally coming from someone who managed to lead 2 first boss kills on normal in ToV I would not say that it over tuned. It might seem like it is when you keep failing at things and people dying, but if you figure out how to do the fight and what you did wrong it's not that tough.

ToV doesn't allow mistakes from any role, specially the tanks alongside with the DPS and healers. The group I lead averages around 850-865ish ilvl with some individials higher. We have not killed any EN M bosses.
.

Your average item level on your logged kill is 864.5

The instance drops 855. You outgear it by ~15 item levels. Don't you think theres a logic failure somewhere in your post if you think its not overtuned yet you needed to be overgeared to kill it?

Realistically you should be attempting heroic with your gear since you're very close to the level it drops, try it and then get back to us :P

[BannedForViews]

Really all it is here is you can't bring the same shitty players you'd bring to round up your roster like you do in EN. We can't kill Odyn because half our dps are shit, so it's tuned higher than HC EN for sure, maybe around early Mythic EN as far as DPS needs go. Doesn't mean it's overtuned tho...

And yeah, we're at 2/7 MM in EN, fairly casual, and it would definitely be hard to tackle in heroic gear, for players who are still progressing in MM EN (so not necessarily all the sharpest knives in the drawer...).

What is the point of running a raid that drops gear that is worse than the gear required to run the raid....

[Hctaz]

To be frank, I am really worried. We're a 7/7 Heroic guild that doesn't have a consistent enough comp to seriously progress Mythic (which we're fine with). If only mythic guilds can clear heroic something is seriously wrong with the tuning. You shouldn't have to outgear a raid to meet the dps requirements.

It isn't dps requirement issues it's literally just the mechanics are difficult. The fights are hard. They might get nerfed a little but it won't be health numbers most likely it'll just be damage output. The fights are supposed to be long.

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Your average item level on your logged kill is 864.5

The instance drops 855. You outgear it by ~15 item levels. Don't you think theres a logic failure somewhere in your post if you think its not overtuned yet you needed to be overgeared to kill it?

Realistically you should be attempting heroic with your gear since you're very close to the level it drops, try it and then get back to us :P

The logic failure is on Blizzard's end. EN should have been harder. This is what raids were supposed to be tuned to. EN should be easier than ToV but not by as large a margin as it ended up being.

[BannedForViews]

Your average item level on your logged kill is 864.5

The instance drops 855. You outgear it by ~15 item levels. Don't you think theres a logic failure somewhere in your post if you think its not overtuned yet you needed to be overgeared to kill it?

Realistically you should be attempting heroic with your gear since you're very close to the level it drops, try it and then get back to us :P

Got heroic Odyn to 3rd phase. We were missing one of our main tanks (on honeymoon) so that might have made a difference, but it is clearly too hard for gear level. I 877 max, 3/7 in EN, and my guild is geared, if not necessarily full of "talent". What it reminds me of is Tempest Keep. TK killed a lot of guilds based on mechanics more so than gear. The mechanics of Odyn are rather hectic and don't give a lot of room for error unless you have massive dps (preferably ranged). I saw a post here that said there was a stealth nerf on the Hymdall/Hrjya adds in phase 2 so they get cleaned out faster and I bet that will help a lot, but the reality is it's a lot for most guilds.

Some people like to pretend that the average wow player is better today than they were in the past. Then you see bosses like in ToV and realize how wrong those people are.

[kamuimac]

I don't think you know what average means.

for them " average " means someone in top 5 %

atm "Average" player is probably around 820 itlv -_-

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What is the point of running a raid that drops gear that is worse than the gear required to run the raid....

some is with karazan - that why both kara and ToV will end up as huuuge failures

shit game design is shit

[Deleted]

I don't mind a hard raid, but it's a simple unarguable fact that Odyn HC is more difficult than at least 4/7 Mythic EN while dropping worse items. The amount of selfish jerks on this thread is astounding. Heroic ToV is not designed for us Mythic raiders to bang our heads against, it's supposed to be fun and challenging for people that have not killed a single mythic boss in EN. It's designed for people with 865 average item level.

I personally don't mind it being hard, gives us something to do once we've cleared mythic EN. But I can see further than my own personal interests, unlike you pieces of shits in this thread.

[Fenixhart]

You'd think the objective fact that the Raid needing higher level of gear than what it provides to clear it would make it consdered overturned.

But somehow people still find ways to be elitist about this.

Y'all...

[Deleted]

What is the point of running a raid that drops gear that is worse than the gear required to run the raid....

Because our "non shit" players are around 870-873 ilvl, inflated by legendaries, I actually think half the raid is plagued by neck legs ... So we all have a reason to try and get the base 870 loot from this raid, and I believe based on last night's tries that we would be able to kill at least Odyn and Guarm by getting rid of our less savory elements (which is what a flex sized raid allows us to do for HC content).

Granted it might be slightly overtuned, but I don't think it's overtuned to the point that it's impossible to kill if you're not fully mythic geared like some people seem to be saying around here or on reddit.

[Tehterokkar]

Umm, yea good luck with that.

Didn't need luck, only 12 wipes on Helya, mostly figuring out what works strategy wise.

[Deleted]

My guild has pretty decent gear for a heroic guild (I think most of us are between 865-870, with some higher). Yesterday we tried ToV normal and it took us 3h to finish it.

It was awesome.

My thoughts are that raids should take time, even when overgeard. There is no reason for gear to matter more than tactics (if it would, it should've gone much faster for us). The fun part of raiding is finding out the tricks of how to deal with diffrent mechanics. Going to try hc this sunday, and I hope it will take a couple of weeks atleast untill we clear it.

[Hctaz]

You'd think the objective fact that the Raid needing higher level of gear than what it provides to clear it would make it consdered overturned.

But somehow people still find ways to be elitist about this.

Y'all...

No this is the flaw with Blizzard's new gearing system. They realized it with EN. People had much higher gear than the instance was tuned for. Mythic plus gear was "capped" at 865 but because it could titanforge you had guilds walking into Mythic EN for the first time with 875+ item level. The reason you're seeing this raid be so overtuned is because the difficulty per gear rewards were too easy prior. EN should have been tuned harder on all difficulties. Guilds shouldn't be able to walk into EN heroic, clear the place, and not understand what the heck just happened. I know that was my experience the first week. No clue how to handle some of the mechanics at all and lots of misinformation be we still cleared it.

[weedburst]

good. raids or sometimes even single bosses used to take weeks/months to down, this will be done on mythic in a few days im guessing. if im wrong that's good, if im right then it's very undertuned just like EN was.

guess we'll see.

[assman]

People are trying to act like playing WoW is rocket science. There is nothing difficult about doing mechanics correctly and knowing how to play your class. As long as your ilevel is decent enough then the only thing stopping your guild from clearing ToV is people fucking up or not knowing how to play the game, both of which are easily fixed.

[Avalrand]

nice bullshit, talk is cheap, go to wowprogress, look at 7/7 heroic guilds, arrange them by ilvl, whats that? you see 15 people OVER ilvl 870? some even 875+ but but they're only 7/7 heroic? so by your logic they are all super lucky and titanforged "supreme" luck.

retort to that, you can but i'll probably add you to ignore i get bored of people telling me i'm wrong when i can go to wowprogress and see i'm right look for guilds that are at least 1/3 in ToV otherwise you'll find dead inactive guilds, the average lowest ilvl will be what you say 866-867 but a lot of raiders will be 870+ because other content exists as does titanforged and warforged, and weekly cache and mythic+

This guild has killed Heroic Xavius today and nobody is above 870. They've killed Heroic Nythendra back in the beginning of October and have been killing new boss every week since then, so they did some Heroic farming. And they killed Xavius yesterday, only one person is above 870. You would propose them to farm Heroic EN and Mythic+ until they have average 870 instead of going to ToV Heroic? You only take into account those who cleared EN Heroic in September or early October and didn't go Mythic for some reason? It might be a shock for you, but actually not every 7/7 Heroic raider clears Mythic+10 every week. And yes, you need to be extremely lucky with drops to gear into 875 in Heroic EN and Mythic+. You need to do dozens of Mythic+, in fact, and it isn't as casual as 7/7 Heroic in two months is. Should Heroic raiding require lots of grinding?

Didn't need luck, only 12 wipes on Helya, mostly figuring out what works strategy wise.

You are top 50. Are you sure you're the intended audience for Heroic raids? How many wipes did you have in EN Mythic?

[munkeyinorbit]

Nope, whole group knew what they were doing.

i bet they didnt. A whole bunch of people failing mechanics and overpowering an instance is not "knowing what theyre doing".

[Deja Thoris]

Got heroic Odyn to 3rd phase. We were missing one of our main tanks (on honeymoon) so that might have made a difference, but it is clearly too hard for gear level. I 877 max, 3/7 in EN, and my guild is geared, if not necessarily full of "talent". What it reminds me of is Tempest Keep. TK killed a lot of guilds based on mechanics more so than gear. The mechanics of Odyn are rather hectic and don't give a lot of room for error unless you have massive dps (preferably ranged). I saw a post here that said there was a stealth nerf on the Hymdall/Hrjya adds in phase 2 so they get cleaned out faster and I bet that will help a lot, but the reality is it's a lot for most guilds.

Some people like to pretend that the average wow player is better today than they were in the past. Then you see bosses like in ToV and realize how wrong those people are.

Mechanically hes easy. It's just a numbers check. First off ranged cleave makes it so much easier (SP / destro lock)

On the healing side shatter spears comes in literally every 8 seconds for long periods of time, this means that you need to heal the raid for up to 1/3 of their HP from shatter while avoiding the next spears that are landing - that doesn't even account for the other sources of damage which are pretty numerous.

It's almost purely a gear check in my eyes.

[Sarevokcz]

No this is the flaw with Blizzard's new gearing system. They realized it with EN. People had much higher gear than the instance was tuned for. Mythic plus gear was "capped" at 865 but because it could titanforge you had guilds walking into Mythic EN for the first time with 875+ item level. The reason you're seeing this raid be so overtuned is because the difficulty per gear rewards were too easy prior. EN should have been tuned harder on all difficulties. Guilds shouldn't be able to walk into EN heroic, clear the place, and not understand what the heck just happened. I know that was my experience the first week. No clue how to handle some of the mechanics at all and lots of misinformation be we still cleared it.

wasnt first xavius kill done 868 group? which is pretty much heroic EN level of gear + a legendary, so not really overgeared, just at hte point that usually took couple of weeks or plenty of splitruns to achieve.

and its not about the difficulty of ToV bosses, its about rewards being dogshit, if these bosses are hard that even mythic EN guilds struggle with them on HC (which is fine by me), then the rewards should reflect that, not be 10 ilevels lower than mythic EN. But we all knew staggered raid release will have the same problems as the last time if they wanted to pretend all three raids are in the same tier...

[Deleted]

Ya it's over tuned. First 2 were fun and hectic, but I outgear the place. The dog put out waaaay too much raid damage. Helya is the ashran of raid bosses. "what should we add to this encounter?" "ALL OF THE MECHANICS". I like hard bosses, but I was half expecting a raid pet battle at 10% and an archeology mini game at 5% just to make sure they covered everything in that one fight.
Overcompensation for an easy EN. Knee jerk blizzard.

Omg, I laughed way too hard on this on the train on the way to work. Thanks! Can't wait to see that fight.

I'm in a 1/7M guild, so, we are kinda the target audience.. and we had 19 wipes on heroic Odyn with our best try at 28%. our wipes were mostly on p2. Between the shatter/horn/shield/blast combo + invisible balls of stun, it was super hard getting to p3 cleanly. Tonight with the hotfix it should be a kill.

[Sonnillon]

@Deja Thoris you should already know that my logic has always been flawed.

But mainly the ilvl of people is inflated by the legendaries which all have and people who have 870+ gear. Some slots still need filling. As for we not going heroic - what's the point in learning the new fight on harder difficulty when you can learn on the easier one, specially that when majority still can grab an upgrade from it to a slot or few.
Learning from the past, not overestimating "how good" we are based on the performance we have in "previous raid".

True when we wiped on Odyn and Guarm people felt that it was over tuned, but when we got the tactics sorted, then suddenly it was not any more, speaking of normal only.

I think, even with lower ilvl it's meant to be a challenge, where mistakes are punished. You have to execute the mechanics properly, you don't have the room for the same mistakes as EN allows on N/HC. It's a challenge. "Outgearing" based on the average ilvl only allows us to make more mistakes, where lower geared groups cannot make any. Besides, the amount of gear we had didn't make the fight easier mechanic vise. You didn't pay attention - too bad.

I'll get to see ToV on normal with 10-man group who is not that geared on Friday again.

Possible for a filler raid with this high difficulty curve the rewards for killing bosses should be greater, but on the same time a raid before NH shouldn't drop higher items then NH itself.