Protection Warrior and Leech Priority

[Ripkinn]

I am have trouble believing the stat string i am currently using on Ask Mr Robot. I would like some reassurance it is leading down the road of a proper tank set. My character name in game is Ripkinn and am on Stormrage, my current ilvl is 875 but like more like 869 when i equip what Ask Mr Robot calls my tank set. Listed below are the weights that Ask Mr Robot uses to prioritize my gear.

Armor 7.57
Leech 3.5
Versatility 2.33
Strength 2.17
Mastery 1.89
Avoidance 1.45
Stamina 0.88
Critical Strike 0.69
Haste 0.68
Movement Speed 0.02
Main Hand Damage 0.01

My concerns with this is i am not achieving 20%+ haste with these stat weights and also it gives leech such i high value i will be told to wear basically any thing with leech even if it 20 ilvl lower. Can some help me get these stat weights in order so i can worry about more important thing like mechanics.

Thanks

[Rhokzor]

Don't worry about stat weights. Sims are broken for Prot right now. Get haste to 25-30%, then go for mastery/vers. Most damage you're going to be tanking is melee damage so lean for mastery.

[Ripkinn]

Thanks for the insight

- - - Updated - - -

I am have trouble believing the stat string i am currently using on Ask Mr Robot. I would like some reassurance it is leading down the road of a proper tank set. My character name in game is Ripkinn and am on Stormrage, my current ilvl is 875 but like more like 869 when i equip what Ask Mr Robot calls my tank set. Listed below are the weights that Ask Mr Robot uses to prioritize my gear.

Armor 7.57
Leech 3.5
Versatility 2.33
Strength 2.17
Mastery 1.89
Avoidance 1.45
Stamina 0.88
Critical Strike 0.69
Haste 0.68
Movement Speed 0.02
Main Hand Damage 0.01

My concerns with this is i am not achieving 20%+ haste with these stat weights and also it gives leech such i high value i will be told to wear basically any thing with leech even if it 20 ilvl lower. Can some help me get these stat weights in order so i can worry about more important thing like mechanics.

Thanks

is it possible to adjust the values above correctly and enter them in the Askmrrobot

[Zoopercat]

@Ripkinn I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. The simulations we do for tanks are actually quite interesting and robust. Here's a few things we've done with our simulator to improve on what's been available in the past:

Tank sims on AMR:
1. Take real damage modeled on a real fight (Ursoc)
2. Health is taken into account (unlike the infinite health pool in SimC)
3. Tanks get healed by raid healers in the script, who are scripted to act like real healers (which can be customized). For example, they will put a HoT on the tank under X circumstance, or use a big heal under y circumstances, etc.
4. The reports show how much damage mitigation you get from various sources, like dodge, etc* - The catch is that we are reworking some of the way we show that in the report. It doesn't affect the stat weights, just how it's viewed/attributed.

Right now, our tank weights are all based on a new metric we developed: NPS (negated damage per second, or as we like to say 'NoPeS').
I have a blog post going up on this soon, but the short story is we evaluated all tanking metrics used in the past (including our own), like TMI from Theck, DTPS, HRPS, etc. And we built a new metric that 'does it all.' After I get the blog post up, I want people to read it and participate in a discussion, since it's new, and it's always good to get feedback.

Hope that info helps

[Enitzu]

Just adjust the stat priorities and give them caps. If you don't want to run leech you can easily drop the value of it.
@Zoopercat - It's great that sims are being updated but the problem is that they are currently valuing things, such as leech, with too high a priority and changing gear layouts based on it. Leech is great to have but it's never going to be something that's geared around. Haste, however, allows for more shield block which is not being taken into account in the sims. Basically, if you want to use up to date models for sims then you have to build it per spec which will take way too long and way too much work to update every time things change. So they will never be accurate

[Zoopercat]

Actually, @Enitzu, you're right AND that's exactly what we've done - that's why it's so much better than any tool tanks have had in the past. Just like DPS sims model every DPS ability and rotations... we modeled every tank ability and tank rotations. We modeled every ursoc ability that does damage to you, and it's very true to the actual fight. So yep, we did what you said, that's why it's actually a very useful too

You can run some simulations and take a look at what it's doing, hit me up if you have some questions.

As for leech, it's correct. Leech is a good stat for tanks, so if you have gear with it, it's very useful. For example, if you're doing 150k dps and 10% leech (which you can get with having leach on 5 pieces of gear, which is a lot, but doable). So that would do 15,000 healing per second. That's as good as a low level HoT from a healer. So that's pretty good So when evaluating 2 items, one has leech and maybe an 'ok' secondary stat, and the other has the best secondary stat and no leech - you'll want to compare those items knowing how good leech really is. Maybe the item with leech is better, maybe not

[BananaHandsB]

Actually, @Enitzu, you're right AND that's exactly what we've done - that's why it's so much better than any tool tanks have had in the past. Just like DPS sims model every DPS ability and rotations... we modeled every tank ability and tank rotations. We modeled every ursoc ability that does damage to you, and it's very true to the actual fight. So yep, we did what you said, that's why it's actually a very useful too

You can run some simulations and take a look at what it's doing, hit me up if you have some questions.

As for leech, it's correct. Leech is a good stat for tanks, so if you have gear with it, it's very useful. For example, if you're doing 150k dps and 10% leech (which you can get with having leach on 5 pieces of gear, which is a lot, but doable). So that would do 15,000 healing per second. That's as good as a low level HoT from a healer. So that's pretty good So when evaluating 2 items, one has leech and maybe an 'ok' secondary stat, and the other has the best secondary stat and no leech - you'll want to compare those items knowing how good leech really is. Maybe the item with leech is better, maybe not

Does that take into account overhealing?

Something to also note is 15k hps is pretty meaningless when you're getting hit for half your health or more (and that's a TON of leech). It might help stabilize a dpser on a fight like cenarius with constant aoe, but it really doesn't do much for a tank and shouldn't really be valued very highly unless they have a ridiculous amount. Your healers won't really notice that extra 15k hps doing anything but making their hots overheal a tiny bit more, and if your healers are good, you won't spend a crazy time sub-100% hp to make use of that leech, most will be overhealing. Now having a big heal, like death strike, is still great as it can mitigate spikes, but leech doesn't really accomplish that, even with an insane amount.

[Enitzu]

My point was more to the fact that if the sim was running correctly then the OP would have had stat weights with caps. IE haste <10k = 3.1, haste > 10k = .7 this way he reaches the 30% haste cap before changing gear to favor versa/mast. But no sims are currently doing that. We have to manually put in stat caps and play around with things to get it to produce the results that are accurate. For people who don't theorycraft or keep up to date on stat priorities it can lead them to incorrectly gearing and struggling to figure out why.

[Zoopercat]

@BananaHandsB - The sims take into account overhealing, in such that if a healer heals you to full before your own self healing does, then your own self healing doesn't get full credit. That's why we have 'real' healers reacting on specific instructions, to mimic a 'real' fight, so that your own self-healing is counted 'fairly' - if you will.

Leech is taken into account like any other stat. To find the best stats, we test gear sets with high leech, low leech (And so on, over 1000s of data points for each stat). And we see how much damage mitigation you do (which includes self healing, your total health pool etc).

[BananaHandsB]

@BananaHandsB - The sims take into account overhealing, in such that if a healer heals you to full before your own self healing does, then your own self healing doesn't get full credit. That's why we have 'real' healers reacting on specific instructions, to mimic a 'real' fight, so that your own self-healing is counted 'fairly' - if you will.

Leech is taken into account like any other stat. To find the best stats, we test gear sets with high leech, low leech (And so on, over 1000s of data points for each stat). And we see how much damage mitigation you do (which includes self healing, your total health pool etc).

Gotcha, I was worried when you said 150k dps @10% leech doing 15k hps, which would mean 0 overhealing, a virtually impossible scenario.

[Zoopercat]

Also, @Enitzu I'll try to remember to hit you up when we make our post about NPS, and in particular some warrior tanking information so you can take a look and we can have a discussion. The simulator is much more advanced than any tanking sim before, and we're just getting started. So keep an eye out as we add even more features (and we welcome discussion from people like you as well, of course!)

@BananaHandsB - good point, yeah I was just doing napkin math, but you're right - it sounded like we counted 100% of it, when we are not. So sorry, and thanks for asking so I could 'correct' that!!!

[Enitzu]

Also, @Enitzu I'll try to remember to hit you up when we make our post about NPS, and in particular some warrior tanking information so you can take a look and we can have a discussion. The simulator is much more advanced than any tanking sim before, and we're just getting started. So keep an eye out as we add even more features (and we welcome discussion from people like you as well, of course!)

I'll be completely honest in saying I haven't even tested the new sim. After many expacs of them being off for tanks, I haven't used them for my tanks since MoP. But I'll take a look at it and pass along my feedback. Would be really nice to have a sim that works for tanks in both offensive and defensive categories. Glad that you guys are pushing to make that happen.

[Zoopercat]

@Enitzu - Agreed. Our developer (AMR is 3 people total, 1 is a dev) has played tanks for our raid team since vanilla. So he is right there with you in wanting a sim that is good for tanks. If you ever want to geek out, you can also hit him up (yellowfive) in our discord. https://discord.gg/0ogCIsRqIGTdJfHZ

[Ripkinn]

Enitzu so if I want to edit my Ask Mr Robot to incorporate a stat cap to 30% would it look like this?

Stat weights Cap Capped weight
Haste 3.1 10000 .7

or are these not the correct?