We will not fight Sargeras this expac. (My opinion/wording from Q&A).

[Taeldorian]

Here's why:

1.Okay, so during the Q&A today when Ion mentioned going to Argus in 7.3, Lore said something along the lines of "now that we've fought the legion for the millionth time, it'd make sense to be a little more successful this time". You can watch the Q&A and see that for yourself.

1A.Why am I saying this? Because killing the leader/creator of the burning legion and the guy who killed all of the Titans isn't "a little more successful" it'd be completely successful. Now obviously he wouldn't want to reveal that we'd be facing Sargeras but there are other things that make me think we won't and it just doesn't seem to match up.

2. We fight the Fallen Avatar of Sargeras in the tomb. This is the Avatar that Aegwynn fought. This Avatar was only a small small margin of Sargeras' true power. Sure, we can beat it. But it wouldn't be a raid boss if it wasn't a powerful creature/being for us to take care of. So if the Avatar is along those lines of power (and it's been imprisoned for a looong time) there's no way we could face off against Sargeras just yet.

3. A lot of people say we will use our artifacts and "absorb" their power. That doesn't make sense especially when leveling through legion when it's over considering you can still obtain the artifacts when the expansion does end. Not only that, but there are some weapons that aren't "all powerful" and are better known for the person who wielded it previously. It just doesn't make sense.

4. We also have no idea if Sarg is even on Argus. We know that KJ made it like his own kingdom, but we have absolutely no idea of Sargeras is even there. He's a gigantic being that slices planets in half, who knows what he's doing?

Thoughts? Opinions? I could be wrong obviously, just curious to see what others think.

[Shampro]

If the Tomb of Sargeras last boss was another demon other than Kil'jaeden I would agree with you. But I think Sargeras won't make it past the last Tier of this expansion. However, lets say he does, which is possible I think they will use him in the story against the Void Lords, after all, his whole insane idea of purging the universe is to eradicate any chance at thier success.

Ofcourse it is completely possible that Kil'jaeden will not die in ToS and instead retreat to Argus thus we follow him through to kill him next patch, but I VERY much doubt they will make him the last boss of two Raids in a row.

[Pantalaimon]

As much as I hate to say I do think we could very wel kill Sargeras this expansion (hate the idea since I fear that his demise will be rushed and will fall short of the buildup/hype of taking him down). Think about it, if we don't kill Sargeras this expansion we are essentially getting a third Legion expansion (BC, Legion, & the one we'd kill Sargeras in). I don't know about anyone else, but I want more diversity in expansions than making the Legion the new ever reoccuring troll theme (yes I do get the Legion is at the core of the lore, I still don't want every other expansion to be Legion based, so to speak).

[Taeldorian]

As much as I hate to say I do think we could very wel kill Sargeras this expansion (hate the idea since I fear that his demise will be rushed and will fall short of the buildup/hype of taking him down). Think about it, if we don't kill Sargeras this expansion we are essentially getting a third Legion expansion (BC, Legion, & the one we'd kill Sargeras in). I don't know about anyone else, but I want more diversity in expansions than making the Legion the new ever reoccuring troll theme (yes I do get the Legion is at the core of the lore, I still don't want every other expansion to be Legion based, so to speak).

What if he doesn't appear in a Legion expansion? He could very well appear in an expansion centered around Azeroth (the Titan) and/or the void lords.

We also don't have the eye of Aman'thul (the last pillar I think?) so we still need to get that. Could be in the tomb, but he was the leader of the titans/brother of Sargeras. The end boss could be centered around getting that or something with it.

The end boss this expac could also have something to do with Azeroth. There's a lot of options.

[Nevcairiel]

We also don't have the eye of Aman'thul (the last pillar I think?) so we still need to get that.

The Eye of Aman'thul is in the Nighthold raid. Grand Magistrix Elisande currently has it.
The fight against Gul'dan in Nighthold uses the power of the Eye of Aman'thul, among other things.

[Count Zero]

Even if we kill Sargeras - even if right on Argus - I don't see how that ends the Legion.

Haven't they conquered billions of worlds ? Doesn't that mean they hold more PLANETS than we have people on Azeroth ?

How does blowing up one planet end a force that spans thousands of galaxies ?

I mean - it does seem like they want to move on to different parts of the story - a full half of WoW's xpacs have been Legion-focused - but I don't see how they wrap up what has been for literally decades of real-life time the ultimate antagonist for this franchise in just one raid.

[Qualia]

Even if we kill Sargeras - even if right on Argus - I don't see how that ends the Legion.

Haven't they conquered billions of worlds ? Doesn't that mean they hold more PLANETS than we have people on Azeroth ?

How does blowing up one planet end a force that spans thousands of galaxies ?

I mean - it does seem like they want to move on to different parts of the story - a full half of WoW's xpacs have been Legion-focused - but I don't see how they wrap up what has been for literally decades of real-life time the ultimate antagonist for this franchise in just one raid.

While I'm not sure if we are going to kill Sargeras this expansion (personally, I don't think so), killing him will end Legion - at least, end it as the major threat it is. Without Sargeras and KJ / Archimonde, the demons are too incompetent to pose a threat to us. Their numbers doesn't matter too much, as they are bottle-necked by the need of summoning portals. Heck, even with Sargeras around, without Archimonde / KJ and their Eredar lieutenants, the Legion would be much less of a threat as the demons are too stupid (or in Blizzard's word, "lack strategic thinking") to act properly (that was the reason Sargeras recruited them at first place). Illidan pointed out that killing KJ and Archimonde (not even Sargeras) would have dealt a major blow to the Legion - as he put it "Sargeras needs commanders to control his soldiers. Without them, the eredar will fall to fighting among one another, and piecemeal may be destroyed."

[Taeldorian]

Even if we kill Sargeras - even if right on Argus - I don't see how that ends the Legion.

Haven't they conquered billions of worlds ? Doesn't that mean they hold more PLANETS than we have people on Azeroth ?

How does blowing up one planet end a force that spans thousands of galaxies ?

I mean - it does seem like they want to move on to different parts of the story - a full half of WoW's xpacs have been Legion-focused - but I don't see how they wrap up what has been for literally decades of real-life time the ultimate antagonist for this franchise in just one raid.

This is another completely valid point. It's already been confirmed a while back Azeroth isnt the only planet out there. It's the only one with a Titan world soul but it isn't the only planet. Sargeras could be anywhere, he doesn't need to be on Argus.

That was my main point. Argus is one of the biggest legion planets sure, but it isn't the only one. Not even close.

As I said before, not killing Sargeras does NOT mean he'd show up in another expansion centered around the legion. He could show up in an expansion with Azeroth (the Titan) and/or the void lords.

Also keep in mind that we kill KJ on Azeroth (in the tomb) so he isn't dead either afaik.

[TriHard]

Ugh! You again! Just remember our deal!
Heretic!

[Taeldorian]

Ugh! You again! Just remember our deal!
Heretic!

I absolutely remember our deal and plan on doing so!

Let's see what points we have for not killing Sargeras in legion:

1. Argus is not the only demon planet. There are many other planets out there. We have no idea where Sargeras is. He could be on Argus, or he could be elsewhere. It's not guaranteed, not even remotely.

2. We fight the fallen Avatar of Sargeras. If his fallen Avatar is strong enough for us to fight as a raid boss, what does that show for Sargeras? The fallen Avatar had a very very small amount of his power. It's not even his current Avatar, it's the imprisoned one.

3. People seem to think if we don't kill Sargeras then we will be getting another demon expansion. That's not at all what could happen. He could very easily show up in an expansion centered around Azeroth (the Titan) and/or the void lords, both of which are on Sargeras' radar.

4. KJ isn't dead afaik. We fight him in the tomb, which is on Azeroth. Not sure what'll happen here though.

Tin foil hat 5. During the interview Lore said "we've fought the legion a million times so it'd make sense to be a little more successful this time around". Is "a little more successful" killing the leader of the burning legion/killing the dude who took out the entire pantheon? No way Jose, that's extremely or completely successful. This isn't a main point hence the tin foil hat, but it did get me thinking.

So, with this, what're your points for saying we will kill Sargeras aside from "WoW is ending soon" which is what I see as the main argument?

[Count Zero]

While I'm not sure if we are going to kill Sargeras this expansion (personally, I don't think so), killing him will end Legion - at least, end it as the major threat it is. Without Sargeras and KJ / Archimonde, the demons are too incompetent to pose a threat to us. Their numbers doesn't matter too much, as they are bottle-necked by the need of summoning portals. Heck, even with Sargeras around, without Archimonde / KJ and their Eredar lieutenants, the Legion would be much less of a threat as the demons are too stupid (or in Blizzard's word, "lack strategic thinking") to act properly (that was the reason Sargeras recruited them at first place). Illidan pointed out that killing KJ and Archimonde (not even Sargeras) would have dealt a major blow to the Legion - as he put it "Sargeras needs commanders to control his soldiers. Without them, the eredar will fall to fighting among one another, and piecemeal may be destroyed."

I guess ultimately my answer is, "It's a video game and they're moving the story on, that's how."

[Banthare]

Well, what will we fight at the end of the Argus raid? Kil'jaeden/Archimonde/and Jaina the Dreadlord?

[Count Zero]

Because we would have eliminated the entire command structure that keeps the Legion focused and controlled. The threat of the Legion as we currently know it would be gone if we kill Sargeras. Individual planets would no doubt have particular demons that might take command, but with the main guys out of the way, they cease to be a threat to Azeroth because they have lost their paths and gateways to us.

Cut off the head and the army falls into disarray. That is enough for Azeroth. Could something rise again? Sure, but not for a long time. The Old gods and void lords would be a much larger problem.

Well. To this, I wonder how "leader falls, faction falls" applies to the Legion but not the Scourge. I mean, the Scourge are literally mindless zombies on another continent, yet they were deemed too dangerous to not have a leader holding them in check. I just don't see how literally billions of planets worth of demons - millions of them completely sentient and intelligent - are not in the same boat.

I mean, beyond my previous post of "it's a video game".

[Qualia]

Well. To this, I wonder how "leader falls, faction falls" applies to the Legion but not the Scourge. I mean, the Scourge are literally mindless zombies on another continent, yet they were deemed too dangerous to not have a leader holding them in check. I just don't see how literally billions of planets worth of demons - millions of them completely sentient and intelligent - are not in the same boat.

Because the Scourge are on the same planet as us. The Legion, on the other hand, isn't. Majority of the Legion demons are still in the Twisting Nether. Without a good leader to come up with plans to get the portals here, how'd they manage to get to Azeroth? Are they even smart enough to think of using portals? That is not to mention that they'd even be fighting each other while the Scourge, without a LK, would just hunt the living.

[Netherspark]

Do you really think Blizzard are going to fill the climax of the Burning Legion expansion with random nobodies for bosses?

We're certainly not going to fight Archmonde or Kil'jaeden again. There's a very good reason we killed them before going to Argus.

[Count Zero]

Because the Scourge are on the same planet as us. The Legion, on the other hand, isn't. Majority of the Legion demons are still in the Twisting Nether. Without a good leader to come up with plans to get the portals here, how'd they manage to get to Azeroth? Are they even smart enough to think of using portals? That is not to mention that they'd even be fighting each other while the Scourge, without a LK, would just hunt the living.

So we're saying Sargeras is the only member of the Legion - out of billions - including how many Eredar and Dreadlords, etc - capable of organization ?

Or - how are they not like the elemental lords, with Blizz having said the former lieutenants of Ragnaros and Al'akir would be fighting for who would take their place ? There are probably a few thousand demons with an actionable (rather than out-of-the-realm-of-possibility) plans to take the Legion over from within, either by subverting or outright killing Sargeras. I imagine most of them have plans for what to do after they take over.

[Okacz]

Sargeras is a planet cleaving Titan, who also had the power to casually AoE down every other Titan. I don't know, we just struggled against a mutated Night Elf. Maybe we aren't there yet.

[babalou1]

Argus is one of the biggest legion planets sure, but it isn't the only one. Not even close.

Also keep in mind that we kill KJ on Azeroth (in the tomb) so he isn't dead either afaik.

I cut out the rest of the quote as Im only addressing these 2 points.

1: Argus is THE Legion planet. It is the headquarters of the entire Burning Legion. It falls and the legion falls to infighting.

2: Any area that is massively infused with Fel-stuff is basically a pocket version of the twisting nether. Any demon that is killed in such a place dies for good. Tomb of Sargeras is one of those places.

So we're saying Sargeras is the only member of the Legion - out of billions - including how many Eredar and Dreadlords, etc - capable of organization ?

No. There are most definitely other Dreadlords and Eredar out there that can organize. But as it stands now. They have a chain of command currently.. But..

You have commanders that rule their own various planets/territories. Now say the entire upper command structure and main headquarters is destroyed. These demons solidify their areas and then what? One steps up and say he is incharge, another demon disagrees and their armies fight it out. Another steps up and thinks he (or she) should be incharge. So on and so forth. Go go Legion civil war.

Sargeras may or may not be at or on Argus. He more than likely is speeding directly to Azeroth. He doesnt have telepathic control over his Legion. Thats why there is a command structure. If command goes, the legion turns to infighting because there will be no one giving orders or maintaining order. So to speak.

[Taeldorian]

I cut out the rest of the quote as Im only addressing these 2 points.

1: Argus is THE Legion planet. It is the headquarters of the entire Burning Legion. It falls and the legion falls to infighting.

2: Any area that is massively infused with Fel-stuff is basically a pocket version of the twisting nether. Any demon that is killed in such a place dies for good. Tomb of Sargeras is one of those places.

1. I think you're forgetting that this thread is about Sargeras not getting killed. Sargeras could live in this expac and then show up in an expac with void lords/the nascent Titan. It doesn't have to be about the legion. The point of #1 is to show that Sarg could be anywhere as there's many many more planets, Argus isn't the only place for him to be.

2. Interesting but I've never heard that before.

[Netherspark]

Sargeras is a planet cleaving Titan, who also had the power to casually AoE down every other Titan. I don't know, we just struggled against a mutated Night Elf. Maybe we aren't there yet.

We have the Pillars of Creation.