[WINDWALKER] 7.X Discussion thread

[Deleted]

I'm pretty comfortable with my monk rotation right now, still needs improvement but so far it's been quite nice. Anyways, I checked my relics yesterday and I was just like why the hell do I have 840 2x and 1x 845ilvl relics in there. All 3 provide %increase to FoF which afaik is BiS.

Now here's my question, how much does monk in general profit from high ilvl artifact weapon? I see my damage numbers currently are 4k~7,5k damage of an ilvl of 872 on the weapon.

[Syld]

Using logic on a pure DPS perspective, can someone explain why verse becomes a stronger stat than mastery? As far as I see it, it takes 280 mastery for 1% damage and 401% verse for 1% of damage. If the damage is additive, it doesn't make sense, it is multiplicative it does.

For additive:
Base ability+mastery%*base damage+ verse%*base damage= 100%+35%+5%=40% damage boost for example.

For multiplicative:
Base ability*mastery%*verse%=1*1.35*1.05=41.75% damage increase.

So I guess my question is, is it multiplicative or additive?

That's because when you have high amounts of mastery 280 isn't really 1% damage, in fact that is only the case when you have 1% mastery. If you have something like 40% mastery you need way more than 280 mastery to increase your damage 1% and that has nothing to do with versatility being multiplicative (it is). Even if versatility didn't exist, it's just simple math : if you have certain amount of something and want to increase it by 1% then you can add just a little, but if you have bigger amounts, you need to add more and more to increase it by 1%.

[Deleted]

That's because when you have high amounts of mastery 280 isn't really 1% damage, in fact that is only the case when you have 1% mastery. If you have something like 40% mastery you need way more than 280 mastery to increase your damage 1% and that has nothing to do with versatility being multiplicative (it is). Even if versatility didn't exist, it's just simple math : if you have certain amount of something and want to increase it by 1% then you can add just a little, but if you have bigger amounts, you need to add more and more to increase it by 1%.

Just want to add here, it has very much to do with the fact that it is multiplicative. (Base * (1+mast%) * (1+vers%)). If it was additive (Base * (1+mast%+vers%)), versatility would at no point become better than mastery. Other than that, you're right of course.

[Syld]

Just want to add here, it has very much to do with the fact that it is multiplicative. (Base * (1+mast%) * (1+vers%)). If it was additive (Base * (1+mast%+vers%)), versatility would at no point become better than mastery. Other than that, you're right of course.

I was talking about mastery "dr" and not the combination of both stats but maybe I expressed myself badly.

[Deleted]

I was talking about mastery "dr" but maybe I expressed myself badly.

Sorry, I just wanted to expand a little about the additive vs. multiplicative aspect as it was a big part of the other guy's question. The mastery dr part is absolutely right ^^

[lonely zergling]

If you had all legendaries which ones would you use for high mythic + runs? Is it worth using the movement speed ring if you have the dps ones?

[Rockerto]

If you had all legendaries which ones would you use for high mythic + runs? Is it worth using the movement speed ring if you have the dps ones?

Ring and cloak

[Babylonius]

Using logic on a pure DPS perspective, can someone explain why verse becomes a stronger stat than mastery? As far as I see it, it takes 280 mastery for 1% damage and 401% verse for 1% of damage. If the damage is additive, it doesn't make sense, it is multiplicative it does.

For additive:
Base ability+mastery%*base damage+ verse%*base damage= 100%+35%+5%=40% damage boost for example.

For multiplicative:
Base ability*mastery%*verse%=1*1.35*1.05=41.75% damage increase.

So I guess my question is, is it multiplicative or additive?

Vers and mastery are multiplicative.

The reason is that as you get more mastery, each further point of mastery isn't as useful. At 0 Mastery, you have 10% more damage from Mastery, adding another 1% mastery adds 0.9% total damage. If you're at 20% total mastery, then another 1% mastery adds 0.833% more damage, and so on. The same applies with versatility and critical strike. Because each stat has a different point to % conversion and mastery effects a different proportion of damage than crit/vers, they have different points at which the other stats catch up and pass.

[FayrenPickpocket]

Vers and mastery are multiplicative.

The reason is that as you get more mastery, each further point of mastery isn't as useful. At 0 Mastery, you have 10% more damage from Mastery, adding another 1% mastery adds 0.9% total damage. If you're at 20% total mastery, then another 1% mastery adds 0.833% more damage, and so on. The same applies with versatility and critical strike. Because each stat has a different point to % conversion and mastery effects a different proportion of damage than crit/vers, they have different points at which the other stats catch up and pass.

Yeah. All of that makes sense. I was more considering a 1% value of mastery instead of 1% of damage. Increasing your damage from 140% by 1% is different than increasing it by 1 percentage point.

[Colly]

Question about the cloak. Anyone know of an addon that tracks how much is left on your karma? I got the cloak yesterday and I'm loving it, but sometimes I kill myself by trying to push it a bit too far.

[Deleted]

Vers and mastery are multiplicative.

The reason is that as you get more mastery, each further point of mastery isn't as useful. At 0 Mastery, you have 10% more damage from Mastery, adding another 1% mastery adds 0.9% total damage. If you're at 20% total mastery, then another 1% mastery adds 0.833% more damage, and so on. The same applies with versatility and critical strike. Because each stat has a different point to % conversion and mastery effects a different proportion of damage than crit/vers, they have different points at which the other stats catch up and pass.

I think you confuse percents with percentage points, and that makes what you say a bit hard to understand(at least to me as a more math-inclined person).

If the formula is indeed damage*(10+mastery)*(x+versatility) then given constant versatility, each point of mastery gives you same damage increase. However given high enough mastery, a point of versatility might become more valuable than mastery, as each point of mastery increases the value of each point of versatility.

[halfawake]

It'd be nice if we had another chi spender. Making wdp baseline at 2 chi and having the talent make it free would be a nice starting point for an idea. At this point I can manage my chi so that I barely ever have to use EE unless on aoe. I know it won't happen but a man can dream.
@Colly if there isn't already a weak aura for it I'm sure you can modify any existing ToK one easily.

[snegro]

If you had all legendaries which ones would you use for high mythic + runs? Is it worth using the movement speed ring if you have the dps ones?

Cloak is undisputed number one for M+. Not only for utility but the potential damage output in the 5man format is incredible.

As for second, I would lean toward boots to reduce chi for FoF on AoE with trash being so important in M+. Would allow for more SCK outside of relying on EE and Serenity.

Belt would have some value on higher Tryannicals but I'd stick with boots.

[Deleted]

Did anyone else read Babylonius's opening statement in the guide, in the voice of Troy McLure?

I might be drunk.

[archkiller]

I have no idea what you are talking about but a Monk can't compete on AOE with a DH especially a DH with the ring/bracer it is a GIGANTIC gap in dps. In myth 2-8 the DH will have pretty much wiped out all the trash pull with his burst aoe DPS while you are best case still channeling fists of fury.

And even if the pull is longer to the point where you can build up SCK you won't make it up.

WW Monk can't compete with burst AOE from other classes anymore.

QFT. Not to mention monk has the worst ST dps of all classes. A lot of monks are going to be bench on mythic TOV this week as Odyn and Guarm are purely ST fights.

[-aiko-]

QFT. Not to mention monk has the worst ST dps of all classes. A lot of monks are going to be bench on mythic TOV this week as Odyn and Guarm are purely ST fights.

This is absolutely not true.

[Ryuji]

Are monks in a bad place right now, ST wise? I see them stomp in aoe but ST they burst super high then trickle down to 9th+ place on charts.

[Babylonius]

Are monks in a bad place right now, ST wise? I see them stomp in aoe but ST they burst super high then trickle down to 9th+ place on charts.

WW isn't very strong single target, but its not in a bad place. Middle of the pack.

[Deleted]

Ring and cloak

The ring is overrated.

I have it and wear it but if I had cloak and boots I would never wear it (I have bracers, gloves and the ring). Maybe if you are with tanks and 3 melee dds. Otherwise your group needs to pay attention to stay close to you to even get the effect.

But I dont think the 15% movement is not worth it, it is just a nice to have kind of thing, I dont think it speeds up the run in a meaningful way and has awful secondary stats.

[Xahz]

Cloak is undisputed number one for M+. Not only for utility but the potential damage output in the 5man format is incredible.

That's absolutely disputable. I can think of dozens and dozens of packs where there is no way for you to soak more than 50% of your maximum health from trash damage. There are also plenty of bosses that don't do near enough damage to DPS to make the cloak worth it, even on Tyranical. It has some nice interactions with certain affixes like Sanguine, Volcanic and maybe Raging, but it also forces you to use a defensive cooldown offensively if you want to sit around and soak in AoEs. If you're unable to use ToK on cooldown to consistently get more than 2mil damage, I would argue the ToD gloves and even Sephuz's are better offensively. Then the question becomes how often do you need 200% ToK to avoid dying.

If I could pick any two legendaries to take into Mythic+, it would probably be the boots and the cloak, but don't act like there's some consensus on the topic. Also, Cinidaria sucks ass, even on Tyranical - no way it competed with the boots in any situation. I'd rank the Drinking Cover higher than it even if it forces you to take WDP.