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  1. #1

    With two abilities, you could repair the damage done to Brewmasters

    Spinning Crane Kick and Guard.

    Spinning Crane Kick would reduce the cooldown on your brews for every mob hit, up to a cap of 4 seconds and cost 40 energy.

    Why?
    Because having no baseline AoE filler in 2016 is fucking stupid. It's leaps and bounds backwards in tanking QoL.


    Guard would cost 60 energy and grant you a decent shield, on a 5 second cooldown. Damage sustained by the Guard shield does not interact with Stagger (Stagger won't impact the shield and damage blocked by the shield will not be delayed by Stagger).

    Why?
    Right now, Brewmasters have no real resource because nothing competes. You spend energy to reduce the cooldowns on your brews, but your brews don't alter in pattern 99% of the time. You have nothing else to do outside of that.

    With Guard you can choose between interacting with your Stagger or simply avoiding the damage to begin with. It supplements Stagger well in the sense you can build up a big stagger bar and avoid incoming damage while it cleans itself up, at the expense of lowering the cooldowns of your brews. Every other tank in Legion has to compete with its resources in some way, Brewmaster doesn't and that's partially why it's currently dead boring.

    The spec is now fun and good again.
    Rejoice.
    Be happy.

    Yes I am aware balancing this will be a bit difficult initially because of how disruptive it is to Brewmaster's current (dumb) function.

  2. #2
    I'm only a recent Brewmaster player, but the lack of on demand AoE is really annoying. This is coming from a Vengeance tank, where AoE is quite plentiful. I often feel like i need to Blackout Combo on pull to make sure I'll have enough AoE... then someone aggros a pull and it can take forever to wrangle without my cooldowns up.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    I sort of agree, I started running Rushing Jade Wind for this exact reason. Yes I know that Special Delivery gives way higher damage numbers but throughout Mythic and Mythic + dungeons I found that I needed on demand AoE to be able to pick up adds quicker. I often chain pull when I can and our current AoE prevented me from pulling an additional pack often enough because my AoE abbilities were still on CD.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I reread your post and then reread my own... I thought you meant damage done BY not TO Brewmonks.

    I don't feel we need to take less damage, I like the fact we take the damage... but steadier than any of the other tanks.

    My points written above are more aimed towards the second part of your post, we could use spinning crane kick for some on demand aoe and energy resource cost dump for aoe.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    I agree with you the first point in mythic and mythic+ groups will only wait for me to agrro everything if I drop down a dave and don't move, the second i chuck a kegsmash dps go 0 to 100, and i find that without firebreath they'll pull agrro, to make matters worse firebreath cone and application duration doesn't really reflect its animation so essentially if you're not using dragons breath and not many people are because they've been told its awful, hitting a group of spread out mobs with keg and fire to keep agrro before your dps start doing rotations isn't likely. RWJ really helps with this but should probably be baseline.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    wow wow wow... firebreath is awefull? Its great! Its aoe threat/dmg and it makes them deal less damage on you once you get the artifact talents... How is it awefull?

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Endrachi View Post
    wow wow wow... firebreath is awefull? Its great! Its aoe threat/dmg and it makes them deal less damage on you once you get the artifact talents... How is it awefull?
    Sorry its seems I wasn't clear I was calling dragons breath awful, I never called firebreath awful, I said firebreaths cone and application duration doesn't match it's animation and it wasn't an effective tool for grabbing spread out mobs.

    edit
    well to be more exact I wasn't calling dragons breath awful i was saying that people have purported to be as such.
    Another correction it's not called dragons breath but dragonfire brew* my apologies.
    Last edited by mmoc97ba7c1ce4; 2016-11-14 at 01:12 PM. Reason: clearification

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by JadeSky View Post
    Sorry its seems I wasn't clear I was calling dragons breath awful, I never called firebreath awful, I said firebreaths cone and application duration doesn't match it's animation and it wasn't an effective tool for grabbing spread out mobs.

    edit
    well to be more exact I wasn't calling dragons breath awful i was saying that people have purported to be as such.
    The BoF boosted with artifact trait is actually QUITE fine for picking up thrash from multiple angles, as soon you get used to it's pacing. I enjoy it. Sure it's not death and decay or blood boil, but it's way better than consecration (for example).

  8. #8
    Deleted
    I like totem for picking up the adds. PRoblem is that i still sometimes misjudge its range and accidently pull more than intended...

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsharna View Post
    The BoF boosted with artifact trait is actually QUITE fine for picking up thrash from multiple angles, as soon you get used to it's pacing. I enjoy it. Sure it's not death and decay or blood boil, but it's way better than consecration (for example).
    Yeah I'm not saying it isn't, I'm saying people get it last because they've been told its bad.
    I personally am not saying its bad, I'm saying breath of fire is bad for picking up trash and that without dragon fire brew people find themselves relying on RWJ.

  10. #10
    Spinning Crane Kick? I'd like that. Maybe bump the energy cost a bit higher so it doesn't become a crutch.

    But everything you said about Guard throws away everything the spec presently stands for. BrM doesn't have "competing" resources because now more than ever BrM is paying actual attention to their stagger (a large reason why BrM is considered "complex" now); your iteration of Guard would either muddy up the whole purpose of the spec and make them harder to understand, invalidate stagger in favor of big fat Guards again, or become bonkers OP by having the best of both stagger and damage-absorbing shields. If you don't like Stagger gameplay, just play the other tanks.

  11. #11
    With 2 abilities you could make Brewmasters exactly the same as every other Tank. Because we're the only one, except maybe DKs, that don't fit the exact same template. That's the real problem with Brewmasters: Other Tanks. You don't want this, I assure you that you do not want up to be exactly the same as everybody else, the Community does not benefit from this. The health of the game and Tanking do not benefit from this.

    We don't need more Brews in AoE situations. We don't need a baseline, sustained AoE. We would benefit from those things but we would also lose part of our niche. I'm not saying we shouldn't change at all, we probably should, if not just to reward the high-skill cap and relative effort required to play well vs. Druid/Warrior. But I really don't think the major problem is BrM at all, it's other Tanks having it so easy.

    Here's a better idea that Guard: A toggle stance or short CD that flips the % of Magic/Physical damage we Stagger. This presumes we even need a way to handle magic damage, which we don't, because Stagger already adequately handles all burst damage except when we run out of Brews (which you won't if you play well).

  12. #12
    Here's my vision of a new Guard ability:

    GUARD
    Instant / 60 Energy / 45 second cooldown
    Purifies all staggered damage up to 70% of your health.
    Usable while stuned.

    This would create some use effect for pooled energy giving you the ablity to purify hart hitting incoming dmg from trash or bosses.
    You could plan ahead (what I like about BrM) and build up a high stagger on purpose for a very shorttime not to hurt you too much.

    Overall dmg intake is fine imo.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    With 2 abilities you could make Brewmasters exactly the same as every other Tank. Because we're the only one, except maybe DKs, that don't fit the exact same template. That's the real problem with Brewmasters: Other Tanks. You don't want this, I assure you that you do not want up to be exactly the same as everybody else, the Community does not benefit from this. The health of the game and Tanking do not benefit from this.
    Props to you, my friend!

  14. #14
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    +1, support. I would also add clash back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    I have a wife, dude. Sure it's a sexless marriage but at least I sleep closer to a woman you or OP - or hell, most of this forum - ever will :>

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekora View Post
    +1, support. I would also add clash back.
    It's already back. Our Taunt grants NPCs a move-speed increase. Problem with Clash's original implementation (force charge) was that it caused Evades and often pathed mobs underground or around unpredictable routes that would pull other nearby nobs. It was dreadful.

    Also -1 support.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    It's already back. Our Taunt grants NPCs a move-speed increase. Problem with Clash's original implementation (force charge) was that it caused Evades and often pathed mobs underground or around unpredictable routes that would pull other nearby nobs. It was dreadful.

    Also -1 support.
    Which is super useful against caster mobs that are pinging you from a distance, it can be useful if someone else uses a ranged interrupt on a caster and you provoke to make them cover more ground while they can't cast, but that still doesn't fill the role that Clash had. From my perspective this is where I feel the weakest or I feel that I don't have an answer as a tank where other tanks would. I don't have a ranged interrupt other than Paralysis and that isn't an interrupt, though it can save me from incoming damage to some extent.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    With 2 abilities you could make Brewmasters exactly the same as every other Tank. Because we're the only one, except maybe DKs, that don't fit the exact same template. That's the real problem with Brewmasters: Other Tanks. You don't want this, I assure you that you do not want up to be exactly the same as everybody else, the Community does not benefit from this. The health of the game and Tanking do not benefit from this.

    We don't need more Brews in AoE situations. We don't need a baseline, sustained AoE. We would benefit from those things but we would also lose part of our niche. I'm not saying we shouldn't change at all, we probably should, if not just to reward the high-skill cap and relative effort required to play well vs. Druid/Warrior. But I really don't think the major problem is BrM at all, it's other Tanks having it so easy.

    Here's a better idea that Guard: A toggle stance or short CD that flips the % of Magic/Physical damage we Stagger. This presumes we even need a way to handle magic damage, which we don't, because Stagger already adequately handles all burst damage except when we run out of Brews (which you won't if you play well).
    There is a difference between having a niche and having a well designed niche.

    Stagger is overpowered at doing something that isn't very effective. It smooths out damage, but most of that damage still hits you. It puts the stress on the healers, not on you. Blizzard has said they want every member of a group/raid pulling equal weight to kill a boss.
    Brewmasters hardly pull any weight because everything they do wrong is more or less at fault of your party.

    Can't pick up clusters of mobs fast enough? You're a brewmaster, it's not your fault you don't have much in the way of multiple AoE threats.
    Can't sustain yourself above a healthy threshold of hp? You're a brewmaster, it's not your fault your healer can't keep up.

    The spec forces stress onto the members of your group to pick up a brewmaster's slack. The niche is awfully designed and just garbage to play because you only do the same thing over and over, which is pretty much pressing buttons off CD and drinking brews as needed because there is nothing else to do. It's bad design.

    Almost passively, brewmasters avoid a ridiculous % of instant damage, and it's not on them to cope with it. You can purify 50% of it, great. It's your healer who then has to deal with the other 50% unless you have plenty of healing spheres up, which you won't unless you're dipping below 35%, at which point it's even more stress for your healer regardless.

    Brewmasters are stressful for everyone except the brewmaster.

    In its current state, brewmasters are a scourge upon parties. It's time to pick up the slack and actually DO something about the total damage you take.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Targom View Post
    Which is super useful against caster mobs that are pinging you from a distance, it can be useful if someone else uses a ranged interrupt on a caster and you provoke to make them cover more ground while they can't cast, but that still doesn't fill the role that Clash had. From my perspective this is where I feel the weakest or I feel that I don't have an answer as a tank where other tanks would. I don't have a ranged interrupt other than Paralysis and that isn't an interrupt, though it can save me from incoming damage to some extent.
    Yeah, it's not like we don't have any sort of control. In that situation, we do (as you said) have Paralysis, which I will use in M+ as much as possible and sure, it's not Death Grip, but that's okay because we're the only Tank with a ranged, instant, non-categorically limited CC who can say the caster in this pack is going to go night-night without having to co-ordinate with anybody. (I'm not forgetting Cyclone, I just can't remember if it still exists.)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    We don't need more Brews in AoE situations. We don't need a baseline, sustained AoE. We would benefit from those things but we would also lose part of our niche. I'm not saying we shouldn't change at all, we probably should, if not just to reward the high-skill cap and relative effort required to play well vs. Druid/Warrior. But I really don't think the major problem is BrM at all, it's other Tanks having it so easy.
    You're saying the same thing in a different way.

    Balance is relative. There is no magic number that you want to shoot for - how good one class is depends on how they stack up against everyone else. It's easier to buff (or nerf) singular outliers than it is to balance everyone else around the outlier, particularly when we're talking about something as nebulous as "raid utility". Taking other people's away is not a good idea. Adding more where it's lacking is better, particularly since Tank spots in groups are limited (you're not going to start bringing 4 tanks to a fight just because one tank has some useful ability).

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalorakk View Post
    There is a difference between having a niche and having a well designed niche.

    Stagger is overpowered at doing something that isn't very effective. It smooths out damage, but most of that damage still hits you. It puts the stress on the healers, not on you. Blizzard has said they want every member of a group/raid pulling equal weight to kill a boss.
    Brewmasters hardly pull any weight because everything they do wrong is more or less at fault of your party.

    Can't pick up clusters of mobs fast enough? You're a brewmaster, it's not your fault you don't have much in the way of multiple AoE threats.
    Can't sustain yourself above a healthy threshold of hp? You're a brewmaster, it's not your fault your healer can't keep up.

    The spec forces stress onto the members of your group to pick up a brewmaster's slack. The niche is awfully designed and just garbage to play because you only do the same thing over and over, which is pretty much pressing buttons off CD and drinking brews as needed because there is nothing else to do. It's bad design.

    Almost passively, brewmasters avoid a ridiculous % of instant damage, and it's not on them to cope with it. You can purify 50% of it, great. It's your healer who then has to deal with the other 50% unless you have plenty of healing spheres up, which you won't unless you're dipping below 35%, at which point it's even more stress for your healer regardless.

    Brewmasters are stressful for everyone except the brewmaster.

    In its current state, brewmasters are a scourge upon parties. It's time to pick up the slack and actually DO something about the total damage you take.
    So, I disagree with pretty much everything you've said. I don't know where everybody is having this problem with AoE pick-ups. RJW exists and is pretty much uncontested in that row. KS is excellent snap pick-up, made even better when you get the traits that make it ranged, and -failing both of those- you should know how to use Ox Totem effectively to draw ranged mob pick-up anyway. Sure, Leg Sweep is pretty excellent for M+, but it's a matter of choice. You can even Taunt the statue to turn it into an AoE Taunt.

    You shouldn't be taking Gift of the Mists, so you gain nothing from not using Oxrbs asap, sub-35% is where you should save Healing Elixir to use. They even made that passive (a good bit of casual QoL) so you shouldn't have that problem, and you shouldn't be dropping that low to begin with because our burst taken is so low that a healer has no urgency in keeping us above 50% -- let alone 35%, and then you have Fortifying Brew for when it really hits the fan.

    You absolutely should not be using Brews on CD, you should be maintaining ISB (which, again -- with traits, should leave slack for 1-2 PBs) unless you know damage is fairly low for a few seconds so you can let half a brew re-fill in that window. We have very high amounts of Total Damage Reduction through our Mastery (even in low Mastery gear) which provides an undiminshed ~12% Dodge that doubles every auto-attack we don't dodge. We Dodge almost as much as Paladins Block. Honestly, we have phenomenal synergy with Resto Druids, Holy Priest and Mistweavers. We do sit at around 80% constantly. I get that it's "stressful" if you like to auto-run between packs but we have ~9% more HP than most Tanks to compensate for that.

    I'm not sure if you're just throwing an opinion into the ring having only healed 1-2 bad BrMs or maybe you're the one who hasn't read up on the details of how to play one properly. But most of what you've said sounds more based on Celestalon's outdated "How To Play" post than actual experience with BrM in the game. I don't MEAN to be dismissive, but are you going on principles or actual experience?

    Personally, I think our niche is great and more Tanks should be lucky enough to have them, it'd take the weight of our shoulders and maybe make Warriors, Druids and Paladins feel more like their own specs instead of a generic "Tank" spec that fits Blizzard's cookie-cutter.
    Last edited by thesmall001; 2016-11-14 at 11:21 PM.

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