Thoughts about Legion and why I retired

[Thagrynor]

We shall consider indulging the peasants in due time.

The point I was making is that you are making it seem like everyone is building their bonus trait already. Most are not. And even those who might be are only working on their first stack because of how long it will take to get even a single stack of that trait. I would venture a guess that a fair amount of the player base won't get to 3 stacks until they hit AK 25. If not longer. And given that they are adding another gold trait and another stack to all 3 pt traits in 7.2, per Blizzcon, I would argue that some might not finish all 20 stacks by the end of the expansion, depending on how the scaling for those new (I believe it was said) 15 pts will work and if it will effect the bonus trait (either by requiring the bonus for the new gold [which would be an extremely dick move] or by adjusting the starting point of what is needed for the bonus and scaling up, only allowing those with stacks to retroactively keep what they had earned already).

[Joeydivision82]

Well, here we're not talking about gear but actual talents..on some spec PVP most of the high-tier talents are mandatory. That's the only thing I dislike about.
I get what you mean though, probably I'm just too lazy to grind on different alts. One thing very frustrating: last week my RBG group was in need of a healer and I couldn't join with my resto druid with really good gear but no pvp talents so I had to go with my usual dps.

For PVP the talents replaced the gear, so it's pretty much the same thing at this point.

[Deleted]

The point I was making is that you are making it seem like everyone is building their bonus trait already. Most are not. And even those who might be are only working on their first stack because of how long it will take to get even a single stack of that trait. I would venture a guess that a fair amount of the player base won't get to 3 stacks until they hit AK 25. If not longer. And given that they are adding another gold trait and another stack to all 3 pt traits in 7.2, per Blizzcon, I would argue that some might not finish all 20 stacks by the end of the expansion, depending on how the scaling for those new (I believe it was said) 15 pts will work and if it will effect the bonus trait (either by requiring the bonus for the new gold [which would be an extremely dick move] or by adjusting the starting point of what is needed for the bonus and scaling up, only allowing those with stacks to retroactively keep what they had earned already).

This makes it even more of a doomed enterprise then since for a lot of folks, by the time they can finally get a stack of that OP trait, the xpac will be over and the artifact weapon lost.

[Thagrynor]

This makes it even more of a doomed enterprise then since for a lot of folks, by the time they can finally get a stack of that OP trait, the xpac will be over and the artifact weapon lost.

That trait was only added so that there wasn't an "end" to the weapon's leveling. And the stacks aren't nearly as OP as you think. It starts at a 5% DPS increase and increases only 0.5% per stack. Even at 5 stacks, you are only up to 7.5% DPS increase. (I believe the healing is healing output and tank is damage reduction, but I could be wrong). It isn't like every stack is an additional 5% damage increase. Having all 20 stacks is a net total of 14.5% dps gain, which yes, is a lot, but given the amount of effort put into grinding that much AP, isn't as much as you would expect. Also, a single new gold trait (or in the case of specs like Affliction, a full set of 3 decent working gold traits that don't require you killing things to not be worthless) could add far more than just 14.5% damage, depending on what the trait does.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Did we really need another random person telling us why he quit the game?

Oh look an I quit thread guess anything is allowed around here nowadays how nice.

There's probably a problem with the game if people are constantly quitting.

[Rascal Bob]

Basically people want stuff to do but don't want to do stuff... God you had a lot to grind in every xpac except for WoD maybe and that sucked balls.

Really I enjoy myself quite a bit I have 3 alts all have artifact lvl 22+ in at least one spec. I don't play for more then 2 hours a day if even that. I'm prestiged on two of my characters but only have done suramar on my main. getting 20 points in a weapon is not even that much work. My mage is 25 on which I mostly do PvP and nothing else except world quests.

The thing I'm pretty much most excited about up till this point was karazhan, god that last fight is cool. Mythic raid fights feel pretty cool, though WoD ones were awesome too.

My mage is ilvl 864 strictly through playing some pvp (arena's mostly) and wquests.

[Deleted]

That trait was only added so that there wasn't an "end" to the weapon's leveling. And the stacks aren't nearly as OP as you think. It starts at a 5% DPS increase and increases only 0.5% per stack. Even at 5 stacks, you are only up to 7.5% DPS increase. (I believe the healing is healing output and tank is damage reduction, but I could be wrong). It isn't like every stack is an additional 5% damage increase. Having all 20 stacks is a net total of 14.5% dps gain, which yes, is a lot, but given the amount of effort put into grinding that much AP, isn't as much as you would expect. Also, a single new gold trait (or in the case of specs like Affliction, a full set of 3 decent working gold traits that don't require you killing things to not be worthless) could add far more than just 14.5% damage, depending on what the trait does.

You do make a point. Funny enough, I'm not even thinking about legendaries when deciding what to grind tonight, I don't even think about M+ as a serious source of gear, but that feckin' bonus trait haunts me.

[IceMan1763]

It's usually like 30-50% more Pyroblast damage, which is dumb, but hey. Legendary system and M+ are related though.

You see, M+ is the only system where one can endlessly farm for legendaries. After you get your 30-some artifact traits, AP is no longer such a priority, and gear from M+ is RNG enough for one to not try to farm it.

However, the legendaries might just drop from each of those chests, and you cannot choose to do anything else, as all other means to get these items are limited (as they should be...).

So we ended up in the situation where a few unlucky players tried to desperately become again competitive and the only result was burn out and deep hatred towards the game and its systems.

Our guild took pride in proper, fair item distribution. We didn't favor anyone, we gave all our players that showed up and did their best same chance to compete, and at our level, it paid off. Now it's all falling apart as only 3-4 guys are having fun and doing competitive DPS, and the rest are all behind with their shit legendaries, and zero means to achieve these items so they can be back in the game... so they are quitting raiding or even the game, one by one.

The situation you're describing is exactly why I quit this game.

In my opinion, the Devs basically shat all over the Mythic raiding community, especially where fairness is concerned, this xpac. Why anyone (except the lucky guy who gets the Pyro bracers first) would want to participate in it is a mystery to me.

[dakalro]

My only gripes about Legion at this point are:
1. The Warforged/Titanforged system, it inflates ilvl so much that if you're casual and unlucky it leaves you behind versus even other luckier casuals. A hardcore player will see this less since they get a lot more opportunities to loot (I do 1-3 M+/week, N+H EN, Kara, if I played like I did 3 years ago I would be doing 10-30 along with EN on M and H, Nightbane) which evens out randomness a bit. Seeing a player that can barely play berate me for low ilvl then proceed to die again and again on final boss in Karazhan was disheartening.
2. Legendaries, and specifically getting general-use legendaries before actually useful ones. I got my first in 7.1 ... it was the shield neck ... I was joking that was the bad luck protection ... here's have some useless orange )

Other than that the game is still fun, sort of. If only people could play just a little bit better.

[Deleted]

2 bad things about Legion

1. Legendaries and the RNG aspect, I don't care if they feel like it'll be an awesome story to tell to friends or not the RNG aspect of it is stupid.
2. Artifact Knowledge/Artifact power, it's a cool idea but it's to slow for re rolled characters to catch back up as it is right now.

[Jewsco]

There's probably a problem with the game if people are constantly quitting.

Seems that has been a problem since launch though as people have always been quitting or you going to ignore that fact?

[Redblade]

Legendary system and M+ are related though.

You see, M+ is the only system where one can endlessly farm for legendaries. After you get your 30-some artifact traits, AP is no longer such a priority, and gear from M+ is RNG enough for one to not try to farm it.

This is where you're wrong, heroics can drop them as well and you can farm that endlessly.

Besides, it's the legendary system that's the problem. That you can fish for them endlessly in m+ is just symptom of the original problem.

[Anjerith]

The only issue I have with the game as it currently stands is that there is simply too much to do on individual characters, so playing on my alts has become impossible given my real life responsibilities and such. I'd prefer if artifact knowledge applied to your account as a way to fix this, but it isn't a deal breaker to have a game that has extremely long-term requirements if you want to invest in multiple characters.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Seems that has been a problem since launch though as people have always been quitting or you going to ignore that fact?

Unless you're being actively paid to defend the game, I don't understand the purpose of your posts.

[Jewsco]

Unless you're being actively paid to defend the game, I don't understand the purpose of your posts.

Defend what this game? Obviously you have missed many a thread or post by me then. Because I have no problem ripping blizz when it is deserved like the flying debacle, wod in general , and the legendaries and how they are obtained this expansion to name a few things. But when your whole arguement is people have quit is it not true most of the players that have ever played this game have quit for various reasons? Or are you blindly going to bash to bash and damn any facts?

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This is where you're wrong, heroics can drop them as well and you can farm that endlessly.

Besides, it's the legendary system that's the problem. That you can fish for them endlessly in m+ is just symptom of the original problem.

See that is the problem is the whole legendary system and how they are obtained that are driving people nuts( I know argh). Rng and it being the sole decider one legendaries is a horrible system/set up. It is leading to people getting frustrated and jealous and is bad for the game. How blizz didn't see this happening is shocking

[Regalbeast]

Sorry to see you go..but really it doesn't sound like a problem with the game itself, it's just that you don't enjoy playing WoW anymore. It has always been about the grind or things to do.

It's actually quite funny to see people complain that Legion has TOO much to do.

[Redblade]

Why would you do heroics when you can boost 2s to 7s just as easy? But yes, you are correct, heroics drop them too, although they do seem to drop more often depending on difficulty, overall.

Yes they drop more in higher difficulty, the point was to illustrate that m+ isn't the problem but the core of the problem is the legendary drop system.

I can understand you like M+ because you can relatively keep up with raiders. I respect that.

But it goes completely against this game's original gearing model and structure, where good gear was almost always exclusively inside raids and limited by lockouts. Imagine being able to farm Heroic EN endlessly - cause this is where we're at.

To be fair I wouldn't care if the lockouts was removed completely, I think how much a player plays shouldn't be on Blizzard but the players them selves.

Good rewards MUST be hidden behind proper lockouts. We must prevent burnout and allow for a more equitable reward structure, especially where it's needed so much, in competitive PvE. Even Mythic dungeons have a lockout.

I disagree, burnout is the sole responsibility of the player.

And good rewards doesn't have to be behind lockouts at all, they do need to be behind challenge or significant time investment imo though. That's one aspect I dislike about m+, Blizzard took the easy way out with a timer instead of making them actually difficult.

And mythic dungeons really shouldn't have a lockout now as m+ doesn't, the lockout serves no purpose what so ever.

Because endless farming and extreme RNG is depressing to all but those without anything else to do and incredibly lucky, which is a minority inside a minority inside a minority.

The only thing that's extreme RNG is legendaries, everything else is fairly predictable. Mythics have a per boss drop table and has the lowest base i-lvl, then you have mythic+ which has per instance drop table but in return the base i-lvl scales, then you have heroic/mythic raids that has per boss drop rates with a higher base i-lvl.

So it's really not extreme RNG, if you want a raid drop then the higher difficulty you run the better base i-lvl you will get. The only thing that burns out players is when they take on the monumental task of going after a specific drop through m+ and pray for it to titanforge on top of actually dropping. My guild killed Xavius long before mythic+ gear ever made a real difference so they really don't have to farm it. As far as I know the only requirement is to get a 10 done for raiders in order to get a high base in the chest.

For everyone else the system works just fine...

[Deleted]

Why would you do heroics when you can boost 2s to 7s just as easy? But yes, you are correct, heroics drop them too, although they do seem to drop more often depending on difficulty, overall.

I can understand you like M+ because you can relatively keep up with raiders. I respect that.

But it goes completely against this game's original gearing model and structure, where good gear was almost always exclusively inside raids and limited by lockouts. Imagine being able to farm Heroic EN endlessly - cause this is where we're at.

Good rewards MUST be hidden behind proper lockouts. We must prevent burnout and allow for a more equitable reward structure, especially where it's needed so much, in competitive PvE. Even Mythic dungeons have a lockout.

Because endless farming and extreme RNG is depressing to all but those without anything else to do and incredibly lucky, which is a minority inside a minority inside a minority.

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Yes they did break us apart and introduced the seeds of envy in groups of what were friends not long ago. There is a tendency to categorize those that speak against the legendaries and Mythic+ spam as crybabies, but keep watching. This is not a sustainable system.

At one point, the frustration will grow enough to become more powerful than the love for the game. Everyone has different meltdown points, but more and more people will reach theirs, after they come to the 100th raid with just memories of how once they used to be the best in their spec, but now they are nothing more than a mediocre, replaceable DPS that does 80K less than the lucky dude nearby.

Just watch how it all falls apart if there will be no change to bring these systems in check.

Interesting analysis. On one hand, I have not a speck of sympathy for mythic raiding guilds, since they are the last refuge of the snowflakes and any refuge for snowflakes is plain wrong.
On the other, I do understand the sentiment. I don't think there is any way to match a right legendary with just about any other gear, so if you're unlucky, you're falling behind... not only in mythic groups, but anywhere. This kind of RNGod has no place in a game ruled by dps/hps meters.
Someone tried to import D3/RoS approach to legendaries into WoW. Completely deranged idea to begin with. And then that idea fails epically. My first legendary were the stand-still-to-heal pants, recently I got the Magnum Opus, not much more useful really. So I do get some legendary to drop in every great while, but aside from high ilvl they don't help. I feel very fortunate not to be in a guild where people compete for spots or care too much about individual performance.

[Faesroll]

from now on I want a dollar for every time someone makes a thread like this

[Katchii]

This is where you're wrong, heroics can drop them as well and you can farm that endlessly.

Besides, it's the legendary system that's the problem. That you can fish for them endlessly in m+ is just symptom of the original problem.

Legendaries can drop from any mob anywhere. I got mine from doing one of those "fill the bar" World Quests the other day...was VERY excited about it =)

So you can farm for Legendaries endlessly anywhere.