Demon Hunters are fine ~ Blizzard

[Deleted]

DHs are ridiculously OP in PvP and strong in PvE. Just because you're not #1 in ST DPS in raids doesn't mean you need buffs.

Are you sure we're playing the same game ? If DH's are RIDICULOUSLY OP in pvp, how come we're the least represented class in arenas? Nobody wants to be #1 in ST, the problem is, now that all the classes have scaled our AOE isn't the best anymore and our single target is dogshit (looking at u anger of half giants), at what in the world is our 2 spec class good for/excels at ? Mobility and getting movement speed from our mastery ? Oh hey we're the class that can speed run mythic+ very fast, too bad no other classes can keep up so that's not even a thing + people would still rather have frost dks/fire mages/hunters. Just because you're getting smashed by your guild DH doesn't mean that people of same skill/ilvl won't outperform a DH by miles.

[Cymorìl]

DHs are ridiculously OP in PvP and strong in PvE. Just because you're not #1 in ST DPS in raids doesn't mean you need buffs.

No DH are in the top 150 ladder's arenas and you say they are op... I can manage world pvp, but in rated arena music is different... No utility, poor self healing and, outside meta, not a very strong st dmg.
If you have a problem against DH in arena, you have a problem. And, that said, I wish to face you often climb ladder

[Deleted]

I wouldn't really count Darkness as utility simply because of the RNG nature of it. Yesterday we killed Cenarius on mythic and my guild asked me to use Darkness for the double stomp by the ancient. On some tries it actually did save a lot of HP and healing simply because it was combined with spirit link. Even if 1 person avoids the damage on the stomp, it helps a lot thanks to the spirit link. However, there were tries where it didnt really save much HP.

For our level of raiding, this situation is acceptable because we are obviously not pushing for world rankings or not min/maxing every single thing that we can. But on higher level of raiding this ability is not useful. You can't count on "luck" when you are pushing for world rankings. You can't just say "ok we hope darkness will work this time and we will survive this immense aoe and get the world first kill". A utility ability is supposed to be reliable, it should be "there" when you need it. Example : Commanding Shout. Imagine commanding shout being an ability like "Gives an increased amount of HP to 10 random players in the raid", that's how darkness is for havoc now.

[Nize]

From looking at logs and arena rankings, it's pretty much come down to this.

Excellent in Mythic+
Strong in raids

Weak in arenas
Strong in Rated BGs

So, if anything, they should get buffs to help them in arena without really affecting anything else. A pure stat boost in pvp won't do, as it'll leak into making them too strong for Rated BGs. There's also plenty of other classes out there that are more deserving of the buffs. DHs aren't supposed to be OP like the old definition of "hero class" like DKs were, so don't ask them to be.

[Deleted]

As I said, the only class below us are DKs in Single Target damage. Enhacement Shaman is WAY ahead of us in DPS. Hunters do way more cleave and AoE than us, while also being ranged. Their ST is probably above us as well. Rogues being below DHs? Nice joke.

Let me sum this again:

We're a class that doesn't have any utility or defensives whatsoever.
We're hard to play to a good level.
We don't have any other spec.
We're not the best in any department, even if it is supposed to be our "niche". We're just "strong" (2M AoE burst DPS, while Fire Mages are doing 4, jk)
We bring one of the worst Single Target to the raids.

Being a class that brings NOTHING but DPS to a raid, I expect we can deliver at least decent DPS in all aspects.

Dude let me reiterate:

DH is not hard to play, try maybe Feral Druid which actually has a punishment mechanics if you make a single mistake before making this claim
You have Darkness as freaking one of the only raid utility in the game
You have AOE long stun on shot CD for MYthic+ which is a game breaking mechanics, but not only in DPS also in Tank. Only Tank class having this amount of utility in the game. Freaking AoE silence, AoE fear in place and AoE stun.
You have 2 working specs, what do you want more ? like 4 ? Look at druid only good spec now is Resto and Guardian and borth in totally different scenarios. Restio in M+ and Guardian for Raids.
You are freaking amazing in every single scenario, i mean fuck this shit you are saying, you talk like entitled ilvl 880 dude who will say "i have too damn high level to go to summoning stone, you summon me".
Bosses are very rarely downed by Single Target dmg, because if it would be all about Single Target dmg you would see Method with 2 Warrior tanks, 4 healers and freaking 14 Shadow Priests because they do best ST right now. Still DH is not bottom it is like Top5-top7 Dps specs right now from 24 specs.

Warriors doesn't have any good DPS spec, best Rogues spec is below DH, Ferals are way below and bring literally nothing except combat res. Dude you maybe don't know how to play your class or something ? Srsly

Top 5% results (95 percentile) from last week on mythic kills: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...et=95&sample=7

DH are Top 4 that is better than 19 other DPS specs in game. In Heroic ( pug levels ) you get around Top 6-7 Srsly ? is there ANY REMOTE THING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT ? Just don't say "i don't like momentum build and thus i feel its bad" it all is down to the point where it feels like you play some gimp spec and complain for sake of complaining. It is not 3.0.2 DK for sure but nothing will ever be again.

[Deleted]

Dude let me reiterate:

DH is not hard to play, try maybe Feral Druid which actually has a punishment mechanics if you make a single mistake before making this claim
You have Darkness as freaking one of the only raid utility in the game
You have AOE long stun on shot CD for MYthic+ which is a game breaking mechanics, but not only in DPS also in Tank. Only Tank class having this amount of utility in the game. Freaking AoE silence, AoE fear in place and AoE stun.
You have 2 working specs, what do you want more ? like 4 ? Look at druid only good spec now is Resto and Guardian and borth in totally different scenarios. Restio in M+ and Guardian for Raids.
You are freaking amazing in every single scenario, i mean fuck this shit you are saying, you talk like entitled ilvl 880 dude who will say "i have too damn high level to go to summoning stone, you summon me".
Bosses are very rarely downed by Single Target dmg, because if it would be all about Single Target dmg you would see Method with 2 Warrior tanks, 4 healers and freaking 14 Shadow Priests because they do best ST right now. Still DH is not bottom it is like Top5-top7 Dps specs right now from 24 specs.

Warriors doesn't have any good DPS spec, best Rogues spec is below DH, Ferals are way below and bring literally nothing except combat res. Dude you maybe don't know how to play your class or something ? Srsly

Top 5% results (95 percentile) from last week on mythic kills: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...et=95&sample=7

DH are Top 4 that is better than 19 other DPS specs in game. In Heroic ( pug levels ) you get around Top 6-7 Srsly ? is there ANY REMOTE THING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT ? Just don't say "i don't like momentum build and thus i feel its bad" it all is down to the point where it feels like you play some gimp spec and complain for sake of complaining. It is not 3.0.2 DK for sure but nothing will ever be again.

Do you even know how to read that chart ?

[Pigglix]

Why dont you link the Trial of Valor logs?

[Deleted]

Do you even know how to read that chart ?

Yes, but you can explain to me how exactly im looking wrong at it and from where you are getting your info.

[Deleted]

Yes, but you can explain to me how exactly im looking wrong at it and from where you are getting your info.

The fact that you seem to believe that affliction is actually pulling better numbers/is better than fire mages lmao

[Deleted]

The fact that you seem to believe that affliction is actually pulling better numbers/is better than fire mages lmao

I asked you to explain where is real data from mythic raids wrong and how i'm reading it wrong and you said some biased "lol" statement. Now, explain to me with proof how is warcraft logs wrong and how are you right.

[tehdef]

I am not sure how you managed to see that list but when i check on 75th en 95th rankings DH is one of the best specs in the game for EN.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=95

Maybe if you look at pure boss ST yes we are not the best but who cares when there is like 1-2 patchwork fights this tier.

Overall havoc is one of the best specs in the game IMO, Ballance has been great this expansion in general except for Spriests but thats just cause the whole risk & reward playstyle with a good player is only reward and no risk :P.

This is a terrible way to base the class off of. When you are in burn phases, and not clearing adds, a DH is borderline useless.

DH's are SOOOO bloated with AoE that their single target suffers. You're not always participating in AoE, and since there is only 1 DPS spec available for Havoc, they need to have a balance of both AoE and Single Target.

To defend poor ST with the idea that it doesn't matter because there is only 2 Patchwerk fights this tier is wholly ignorant of the fact that you aren't in an AoE situation every fight, and if you are trying to burn a boss, you are less impactful than other classes.

[Deleted]

This is a terrible way to base the class off of. When you are in burn phases, and not clearing adds, a DH is borderline useless.

DH's are SOOOO bloated with AoE that their single target suffers. You're not always participating in AoE, and since there is only 1 DPS spec available for Havoc, they need to have a balance of both AoE and Single Target.

To defend poor ST with the idea that it doesn't matter because there is only 2 Patchwerk fights this tier is wholly ignorant of the fact that you aren't in an AoE situation every fight, and if you are trying to burn a boss, you are less impactful than other classes.

Maybe take the reverse scenario. Feral Druid, you have 0 AoE, you are basically useless on most fights but you have ok ST. Does it sound better ? I play Feral and i know DH is in way way good spot while Ferals are being simply dumped nobody thinks about dumping DH. In most fights DH simply is more useful than Feral. There is only one class that is good in every type of boss fight and that is Fire Mage.

Imho what you want is not realistic balance but simply for DH to be super freaking OP in each scenario. Which is total bullshit attitude and as we saw in posts above you will mostly disregard any proof with real life backing in logs and simply spew shit.

Sorry to say this, but you are very wrong about DH being in any sense bad. DH is in great spot and many classes would love to be in this spot.

[Wolfheart9]

DHs are ridiculously OP in PvP and strong in PvE. Just because you're not #1 in ST DPS in raids doesn't mean you need buffs.

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Keep in mind that the things that are baked into the spec will NEVER (EVER) be the 'difficult' talent on the tier. Momentum has exactly 0% of being baked in - it's much more likely to be removed altogether, and that's very unlikely too.

Things that can be baked in are the boring passives. Like the increased duration on Eye Beam or reduced CD on some abilities.

The team looked at all of the talent rows, there are some talents that are never worth considering. These talents may need tuning or redesign. The talents that 98% of players are taking may just need to be baked into the spec.

I don't think 98% of players are taking the 'boring passives'

[Shirofune]

Maybe take the reverse scenario. Feral Druid, you have 0 AoE, you are basically useless on most fights but you have ok ST. Does it sound better ? I play Feral and i know DH is in way way good spot while Ferals are being simply dumped nobody thinks about dumping DH. In most fights DH simply is more useful than Feral. There is only one class that is good in every type of boss fight and that is Fire Mage.

Imho what you want is not realistic balance but simply for DH to be super freaking OP in each scenario. Which is total bullshit attitude and as we saw in posts above you will mostly disregard any proof with real life backing in logs and simply spew shit.

Sorry to say this, but you are very wrong about DH being in any sense bad. DH is in great spot and many classes would love to be in this spot.

So you're fine with a class being terri bad in an aspect, while being "good" in the others? Even though the spec offers nothing more? Even though the class sacrifices everything it has (mobility, defensive cooldowns) to do that "good" DPS and being near-useless in single target?

[dark666105]

So you're fine with a class being terri bad in an aspect, while being "good" in the others? Even though the spec offers nothing more? Even though the class sacrifices everything it has (mobility, defensive cooldowns) to do that "good" DPS and being near-useless in single target?

Class fantasy dude. "I have sacrificed everything, what have you given?"

[Segus1992]

I don't think 98% of players are taking the 'boring passives'

Are there only DHs in this game? Momentum is not going to go passive because it requires gameplay that doesn't suit new players. You can't be dense enough to believe everyone playing a DH will be required to use it.

[Deleted]

This is a terrible way to base the class off of. When you are in burn phases, and not clearing adds, a DH is borderline useless.

DH's are SOOOO bloated with AoE that their single target suffers. You're not always participating in AoE, and since there is only 1 DPS spec available for Havoc, they need to have a balance of both AoE and Single Target.

To defend poor ST with the idea that it doesn't matter because there is only 2 Patchwerk fights this tier is wholly ignorant of the fact that you aren't in an AoE situation every fight, and if you are trying to burn a boss, you are less impactful than other classes.

So with that logic hunters are useless aswell (which there not), i just dont see it. method had a havoc dh for there kills, so did serenity and exorsus. they only lack in ST wich im sure will get ballanced in 7.1.5 when they will nerf the ring and buff the ST to compensate to make the differance in ST not so huge.

[Veiled Shadow]

Also, you mention classes that have it worse, how about classes that have it better in literally EVERYTHING they do?

Let me number some.

1- WW Monks. Better AoE, better Cleave. Better ST. A shitload more of utility. A crapton more of mobility.
2- Fire mages. Better AoE, better cleave, WAY better ST. A lot more of utlity. Ranged DPS.
3- Rogues. Assassination -> WAY better ST. Outlaw -> WAY better AoE and Cleave. WAY better defensives and utility.
4- Shadow Priest -> They're in the next expansion in terms of ST and Cleave DPS. We beat them in AoE, though (so useful in raiding). Ranged DPS.

And again, AoE is fucking WORTHLESS inside a raid. It's also worthless inside a Mythic+ with high ranking because of the affixes. And please, refer from mention Il'gynoth. That boss is a ST fight in Mythic.

The only good thing AoE is good for is world content for pulling half the map and speedrunning in low mythic+.

Sorry, I want to be a cutting edge raider, I don't want to speedrun through easier difficulties.

DHs have only ONE spec, and they have ZERO utility, while also having ZERO mobility and ZERO defensives (all of those are used in our DPS rotation). Also, we're also one of the harder (if not the hardest) melee DPS spec in the game. While I agree we shouldn't have everything, we should have the option to do strong ST/Cleave/AoE through talents, since we bring literally NOTHING else to a raid. Well, we bring headaches due to our Momentum rotation. Also, it feels unrewarding to do the rotation and almost never lose uptime, parse 95 and then see how your Enhacement Shaman friend is doing more DPS while parsing 80.

The top WW parse on heroic Ursoc is 497k, while for Havoc it's 547k (with almost identical fight lengths). On mythic (cleave fight), the top WW is 513k while the top DH is 581k (and the WW has a much better fight length in this case). Even if you want to argue about an average DPS at optimal play, Havoc is still ahead on ST/cleave.

With fire mages, the top Ursoc heroic log (566k) is marginally better than the best Havoc one, and they are pretty much even on mythic with the highest Havoc parse being higher than the best mage one. With regards to AoE, fire mage DPS doesn't scale with target count at the same rate Havoc's does due to how Living Bomb works; outside of very large pulls it mostly comes down to who has a cd up for a particular pull in terms of which one does more.

The same thing goes for downplaying Havoc's mobility - you're free to hold a Fel Rush charge in reserve for mobility whenever you want at no DPS loss; you can even use this to adapt your momentum windows to the mechanics of a fight so that you dash out when you'd have had to otherwise. In general you have lots of flexibility with your FR usage; even delaying VR a second or two for mobility is no large DPS loss.

You are heavily understating Havoc in these comparisons of yours and there seems to be a lot of unnecessary venom in your post.

[Shirofune]

The top WW parse on heroic Ursoc is 497k, while for Havoc it's 547k (with almost identical fight lengths). On mythic (cleave fight), the top WW is 513k while the top DH is 581k (and the WW has a much better fight length in this case). Even if you want to argue about an average DPS at optimal play, Havoc is still ahead on ST/cleave.

With fire mages, the top Ursoc heroic log (566k) is marginally better than the best Havoc one, and they are pretty much even on mythic with the highest Havoc parse being higher than the best mage one. With regards to AoE, fire mage DPS doesn't scale with target count at the same rate Havoc's does due to how Living Bomb works; outside of very large pulls it mostly comes down to who has a cd up for a particular pull in terms of which one does more.

The same thing goes for downplaying Havoc's mobility - you're free to hold a Fel Rush charge in reserve for mobility whenever you want at no DPS loss; you can even use this to adapt your momentum windows to the mechanics of a fight so that you dash out when you'd have had to otherwise.

You are heavily understating Havoc in these comparisons of yours and there seems to be a lot of unnecessary venom in your post.

Yeah, with the fucking broken ring. Something we all know is going to get nerfed. I don't know if there's a way to filter logs without certain legendaries, but try doing it. We all said that the ring is the only thing that makes DH ST decent. That doesn't change the fact WW ST is also low (but still higher than your average DH) while also providing way more AoE and cleave, and also a lot MORE of utility.

And holding one charge of Fel Rush is something we do to optimize Momentum uptime, not for movement. Using a Fel Rush for movement is a DPS loss.

[Deleted]

So you're fine with a class being terri bad in an aspect, while being "good" in the others? Even though the spec offers nothing more? Even though the class sacrifices everything it has (mobility, defensive cooldowns) to do that "good" DPS and being near-useless in single target?

The whole point is.. that DH isn't bad at anything, this is the shit you have legit specs being bad in other classes i mean unplayable bad like Feral in M+ while DH specs are playable in each type of content and havoc is a must have in Mythic Raids, guilds don't stack them but they need at least 1 while feral is a "maybe". So srsly start looking at real logs and info that is presented and stop saying you must be OP Top 1 dps in every rank or you are a bad class. How can you ignore all data and simply spew shit like this ?

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Yeah, with the fucking broken ring. Something we all know is going to get nerfed. I don't know if there's a way to filter logs without certain legendaries, but try doing it. We all said that the ring is the only thing that makes DH ST decent. That doesn't change the fact WW ST is also low (but still higher than your average DH) while also providing way more AoE and cleave, and also a lot MORE of utility.

And holding one charge of Fel Rush is something we do to optimize Momentum uptime, not for movement. Using a Fel Rush for movement is a DPS loss.

If you dislike momentum build which is clearly best now, stop complaining now because you don't min-max, if you don't min-max your vote is invalid because at this POV each spec and class is viable in most content up to mythic.