Shadow in 7.1.5

[davesignal]

It is not "super strong". It's weak than Mind Sear, and gets weaker the more targets you add.

Mind Sear right now deals: 74% SP per Target per second.
Mind Flay in 7.1.5 deals: 160% SP per second, plus ~33% per second per target (increased by mastery/hysteria).

On 3 Targets you have 222% vs. 226%
On 4 Targets you have 295% vs. 259%
On 5 Targets you have 370% vs. 292%.

It's increased pretty significantly by mastery and Mass Hysteria though, unlike Mind Sear was. You're marginalizing that a lot.

[Deleted]

I really don't get how Blizzard comes up with these changes sometimes and i hate it how they try to keep S2M no matter what by changing the whole specc around it.

I suppose the downtime between Voidforms might be about equal with the buff to insanity gain and the loss of lingering insanity but i'd rather have more haste just because it feels better for me ... and instead of 20% more insanity gain and 50% less S2M bonus just nerf the S2M bonus by 10% and you have the same result ... i just don't get what they want to do...

[Rhaxus]

It's increased pretty significantly by mastery and Mass Hysteria though, unlike Mind Sear was. You're marginalizing that a lot.

and did he factor in the artifact trait that increases the swp splash damage by further 30%?

[Shyzhi]

Im currently testing things out on PTR, I thought the changes be horrible and for single target.. it is. no more 3rd VT it seems. the change to VB i kinda like... its helping for aoe on the 3 target dummys we have getting to 100 stacks of VF before dying (with lust *Drums*) and getting around 2million DPS from it. ofc its target dummy not a raid.. but overall it feels we are only just touching what could be reworked and fixxed for shadow as it stands, the nerf to STM makes me feel its more a 5min CD then 10min and maybe no death... with a max duration of say 100 secs.

[Deleted]

s2m is the funnest I've had in this game. Let's hope all the effort you have to put into a good s2m still rewards a very strong dps. Otherwise they'll have failed completely.

[RsinRC]

How is anything a buff to Mind Spike? It wasn't changed at all.

One would assume that if Mind Flay's Insanity got buffed then Mind Spike will as well. Maybe not in this build but hoping in another. If they don't then hopefully they're changing it? lol

[SafariDiscoLion]

One would assume that if Mind Flay's Insanity got buffed then Mind Spike will as well. Maybe not in this build but hoping in another. If they don't then hopefully they're changing it? lol

Even if it got the same Insanity gen buff as MF, Spike would still be worthless, in fact even moreso because now you have built in AOE with Mind Flay. Spike is going to need a lot more than just Insanity gen to ever be worth taking, and will now also need some sort of interaction with the AOE portion of Mind Flay.

[Woobels]

How did S2M get nerfed exactly? I'm probably blind.

Unless you mean the recent hotfix change.

[Clozer]

How did S2M get nerfed exactly? I'm probably blind.

Unless you mean the recent hotfix change.

from 150% to 100%? It's right there.

The lingering change isnt that bad i guess. No longer the super bad start, though it will feel bad not having that haste.

[Deleted]

Major buffs to LotV and Mind Spike. Void Lord became baseline which is awesome but Lingering Insanity is now replacing it lol. Reaper of souls will def favor shorter encounters/ LotV and Lingering Insanity will favor longer ones. Void Ray is still boring imo. StM got slightly nerfed with all changes considered and players with high ping's or lag spikes more at risk which still gives me the Death part not worth it more and more.

- - - Updated - - -

I love the Void Bolt change but mostly because I have the legendary ring. but all in all it'll be much easier and less frantic when dealing with dots on multiple targets

By "Major buffs to LotV and Mind Spike" you meant "unchanged" right? because they are unchanged.
By "Void Lord became baseline" you meant "they removed lingering insanity, which makes the specc terrible to play (big haste drop for long period of time) unless you take the new lingering insanity, which is slightly better then the old BUT a talent choice and is in the same row as RoS" right?
"StM got slighty nerfed" you meant "StM got destroyed" right? because no longer getting 3rd VoiT is really big.
"I love the Void Bolt change" yeah dot recasting is so fun right? right? I can see where their are going with it (buffing aoe) but buffing aoe at the cost of single target (which it is, having to recast dots is a single target dps loss) is really bad. would rather still have bad aoe and no nerfed single target.

Its great when blizzard comes through with what they said isnt it?
"We wont nerf the good talents, we will buff the others" (obviously some exceptions would have to be made, nerfing StM was a given. Nerfing AS is what stings, instead of "buffing the others")
"We will make some talents baseline" oh yeah its nice how they made void lord baseline, right? oh wait they removed something from our base kit and made it a talent. wait isnt that the comple opposite of what they said? hmm

I also figured we learned from beta that Void Bolt extending dots rather then refreshing is really bad, why exactly are we making a step backwards now? any reason?

Please dont get me wrong, i expected StM to get nerfed / become unplayable / get removed. But this?
This is just nerfing at ALL the wrong angles.
Removing Lingering Insanity? What?
On beta there was a time where Void Lord was baseline, that was when the specc felt really good (you would constantly have high haste).
I could live with no Void Lord Base line since the downtime between voidforms was quite short and with decent gear your haste ramps up fast enough.
But now removing Lingering Insanity, for no reason at all? I really dont get it.
As I have stated above: i know stm was too strong. But nerfing non StM parts? what exactly does this accomplish? are they implying that even with lotv picked we are too strong? haha good joke.

Cant we just have lingering insanity and void bolt dot refresh (no aoe refresh) back? the other changes are fine i guess. I dont want to feel really akward playing shadow now (huge haste gaps, having to recast dots during voidforms)

TL;DR: Nerf our damage not our fucking playstyle please. Nobody asked for QoL "improvements" so dont give them to us please.

[RsinRC]

Even if it got the same Insanity gen buff as MF, Spike would still be worthless, in fact even moreso because now you have built in AOE with Mind Flay. Spike is going to need a lot more than just Insanity gen to ever be worth taking, and will now also need some sort of interaction with the AOE portion of Mind Flay.

I'm not saying it's an awesome change for mind spike, its basically a buff to it regardless if it's something we like or not. And since no change was made to it when changes have been made to Mind Flay there is that chance that they are saving the change for a different build.

- - - Updated - - -

By "Major buffs to LotV and Mind Spike" you meant "unchanged" right? because they are unchanged.
By "Void Lord became baseline" you meant "they removed lingering insanity, which makes the specc terrible to play (big haste drop for long period of time) unless you take the new lingering insanity, which is slightly better then the old BUT a talent choice and is in the same row as RoS" right?
"StM got slighty nerfed" you meant "StM got destroyed" right? because no longer getting 3rd VoiT is really big.
"I love the Void Bolt change" yeah dot recasting is so fun right? right? I can see where their are going with it (buffing aoe) but buffing aoe at the cost of single target (which it is, having to recast dots is a single target dps loss) is really bad. would rather still have bad aoe and no nerfed single target.

Its great when blizzard comes through with what they said isnt it?
"We wont nerf the good talents, we will buff the others" (obviously some exceptions would have to be made, nerfing StM was a given. Nerfing AS is what stings, instead of "buffing the others")
"We will make some talents baseline" oh yeah its nice how they made void lord baseline, right? oh wait they removed something from our base kit and made it a talent. wait isnt that the comple opposite of what they said? hmm

I also figured we learned from beta that Void Bolt extending dots rather then refreshing is really bad, why exactly are we making a step backwards now? any reason?

Please dont get me wrong, i expected StM to get nerfed / become unplayable / get removed. But this?
This is just nerfing at ALL the wrong angles.
Removing Lingering Insanity? What?
On beta there was a time where Void Lord was baseline, that was when the specc felt really good (you would constantly have high haste).
I could live with no Void Lord Base line since the downtime between voidforms was quite short and with decent gear your haste ramps up fast enough.
But now removing Lingering Insanity, for no reason at all? I really dont get it.
As I have stated above: i know stm was too strong. But nerfing non StM parts? what exactly does this accomplish? are they implying that even with lotv picked we are too strong? haha good joke.

Cant we just have lingering insanity and void bolt dot refresh (no aoe refresh) back? the other changes are fine i guess. I dont want to feel really akward playing shadow now (huge haste gaps, having to recast dots during voidforms)

TL;DR: Nerf our damage not our fucking playstyle please. Nobody asked for QoL "improvements" so dont give them to us please.

Actually LotV does get affected by the change. It gives us more time in VF AND more often than how it is currently. I'm not worried about Mind Spike, I'm not gonna choose it anyway. I thought* void lord became baseline but it didn't so yea that sucks mad balls but the new Lingering Insanity is pretty dope, better than how lingering insanity currently works. They basically combined Void Lord and Lingering Insanity together.

When speaking of RoS, it's 2 different playstyle choices. 1 for short fights and one for longer fights. And with the slight buff to the baseline SWD the Lingering Insanity talent might be top regardless. RoS will still shine in fights with quick dying adds or shorter more spread out trash while LI will favor longer/chain pulling encounters/trash.

StM did get a slight nerf as our baseline spells got insanity buffs but nothing to the level of "destroyed". It did actually get harder to pull off and even more punishing when mistakes are made though so I can agree to in that way being a nerf. I see it as a rubberband got tighter to use and can break easier. But will still shine when used right.

The void Bolt change is better than what it is now though, how? Well currently you can only VB 1 target at a time during VF and only by tab targetting. With the new change you can dot what you can, enter VF and VB 1 target and ALL targets near your target get their dot duration increased. The more haste you have the more VB's you can cast and you can actually extend your dots on ALL targets to the point where you wont need to re dot while inside a VF. And if you have the Legendary ring this change is even more appealing and I'm hoping the dots dont have a cap duration especially once we start getting our Set bonuses where we can spam cast VB after entering VF.

The only reason this change isnt a step backwards is because it affects all targets near your target instead of 1 target at a time.

Quality of life changes on a spec that is so damn complicated in the first place is a super welcome change in my book

[Alcsaar]

I'm really curious as to how they're gonna change the legendary shoulders given the drastic change to lingering insanity.

Guess we'll find out.

In 7.2.5 of course. Expecting a change like that takes at least one content patch before they realize how worthless the shoulders become.

[Dotality]

welp, a moment of silence for the fallen comrades

[Catbug]

I really do not see the idea of taking away a core mechanic of the spec that was quite fun to play with and flowed very well together, and making it into a worse version as a talent instead. That's not the rework of talents I was expecting, I thought they'd create new interesting talents or buffing under preforming ones not removing mechanics and turning them into talents.

Also currently not a fan of the void bolt only extending, I feel like I have to waste time refreshing dots manually when I could be doing something else in voidform

[SafariDiscoLion]

I thought* void lord became baseline but it didn't so yea that sucks mad balls but the new Lingering Insanity is pretty dope, better than how lingering insanity currently works. They basically combined Void Lord and Lingering Insanity together.

I don't think you understand what old LI, Void Lord, and new LI actually do. Old LI is haste that stacks up the longer you're in VF and then stays for 60 seconds after VF drops, then is completely cleared upon entering VF again. Void Lord keeps that haste buff after entering a new Void Form for seven seconds.

On PTR, the old Lingering Insanity is GONE. Gone entirely. Removed. You no longer keep the haste at all after dropping VF, not even temporarily, it just drops immediately. Void Lord is also gone compeletely. It was not "combined" with new LI in any way. The new LI is that your haste gained from VF stays with you after leaving VF, like before, but it decays over time. And you have to choose from that or Reaper of Souls. You lose something either way; Reaper of Souls, or a current baseline mechanic that's been nerfed and turned into a talent. The only benefit is that whatever LI you have left on going into a new VF isn't dropped.

[carenard]

Guess we'll find out.

In 7.2.5 of course. Expecting a change like that takes at least one content patch before they realize how worthless the shoulders become.

im kinda glad I don't have them yet now

... now for the void bolt thing... I would like to see on primary target only refreshing to at minimum base duration
... if I have to recast my dots while in void... just ... why isn't my alt caught up on ap already damnit blizzard

[Quttan]

I really do not see the idea of taking away a core mechanic of the spec that was quite fun to play with and flowed very well together, and making it into a worse version as a talent instead. That's not the rework of talents I was expecting, I thought they'd create new interesting talents or buffing under preforming ones not removing mechanics and turning them into talents.

If they had just made Twist of Fate baseline like everyone was expecting and replaced it with another insanity generation talent, then you might actually have been able to take Shadow Word: Void to make getting into your next voidform a little less painful. I have absolutely no idea how they can justify not doing that after they asked “If 98% of players are using this talent, should we just make it a baseline ability, and make a new, more interesting talent?” at Blizzcon. Twist of Fate has been the mandatory choice for years now. It's the perfect example of a talent that 98% of players are taking, and it's the perfect example of a talent that's wasting the potential of the others in its row.

im kinda glad I don't have them yet now

... now for the void bolt thing... I would like to see on primary target only refreshing to at minimum base duration
... if I have to recast my dots while in void... just ... why isn't my alt caught up on ap already damnit blizzard

As near as I can tell, the change to Void Bolt's refresh was aimed at reducing the need to switch targets to manage your dots. You have to admit that picking out which target had the least time remaining on your dots was incredibly finicky and frustrating, especially if you don't have a nameplate addon like Tidyplates or Enemygrid(RIP). So it would be fairly unlikely that they would reintroduce the refresh if that's their reasoning. However, I absolutely agree that they need to make the extension more substantive and fix the problem with dots falling off during Void Torrent. Maybe they could freeze the duration on all your dots while you're channeling VT. That would be pretty nice.

[RsinRC]

I don't think you understand what old LI, Void Lord, and new LI actually do. Old LI is haste that stacks up the longer you're in VF and then stays for 60 seconds after VF drops, then is completely cleared upon entering VF again. Void Lord keeps that haste buff after entering a new Void Form for seven seconds.

On PTR, the old Lingering Insanity is GONE. Gone entirely. Removed. You no longer keep the haste at all after dropping VF, not even temporarily, it just drops immediately. Void Lord is also gone compeletely. It was not "combined" with new LI in any way. The new LI is that your haste gained from VF stays with you after leaving VF, like before, but it decays over time. And you have to choose from that or Reaper of Souls. You lose something either way; Reaper of Souls, or a current baseline mechanic that's been nerfed and turned into a talent. The only benefit is that whatever LI you have left on going into a new VF isn't dropped.

I know exactly what thise 2 do lol. The new Lingering Insanity is literally both combined. You get stacks of lingering insanity and when you go out of VF the stacks go down as time goes by and you CAN and WILL go into the next VF with the decaying stacks while the new stacks build. Working as both the current lingering except decaying and void lord since you can continue having stack while going into your next vf.

[tiptopmemer]

New 'Void Lord' is ever so slightly better for chaining void forms together in boss encounter, straight up nerf in dungeons tho.

[Kretan]

I know exactly what thise 2 do lol. The new Lingering Insanity is literally both combined. You get stacks of lingering insanity and when you go out of VF the stacks go down as time goes by and you CAN and WILL go into the next VF with the decaying stacks while the new stacks build. Working as both the current lingering except decaying and void lord since you can continue having stack while going into your next vf.

Yeah you end up getting much more than just the 7 seconds that we currently have. I like the idea of it....will have to play it to get a feel for it though. I think taking that talent will make the transition from void form to void form much smoother when you can dps consistently for extended time.

- - - Updated - - -

New 'Void Lord' is ever so slightly better for chaining void forms together in boss encounter, straight up nerf in dungeons tho.

I think this will put even more emphasis on the tank being good at chain pulling than before. With good chain pulling, this could work well in dungeons.

- - - Updated - - -

There's just so many changes in this patch that it's hard to wrap m head around it all yet....I also feel like we still don't have the full picture.

Finally, I think that shadow crash is going to be a thing for dungeons with this damage buff.