Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Sephiroso]

In a comparison of Deeper Stratagem vs Anticipation the cost is the combo point itself. The energy you lose is in comparison to the energy that combo point would gain you while running Anticipation.



On average its a 10% increase in Shadow Nova damage in situations where you would Shadowstrike, vs a 100% loss in Shadow Nova damage in situations where you would Shuriken Storm. In general its a pretty huge nerf, and I'm not sure where you get the idea that its 'meant to be' a cleave ability and not an AoE ability.

Gonna assume he got that idea by the fact of the change....

[fluteroll]

Without legendary boots, sub isn't doing as well compared to other classes and specs.
This legendary is too good, nerf it is OK.
But they should buff sub rogue to balance the damage reduction.
I don't know why they still nerf master of sub and master of shadow.
This patch will make sub unplayable.

[Felarion]

I really hope it is just 1st pass of class changes, and we get some actual damage buffs, aside from that, legion legendary situation is one big LOL for me... They nerf one legendary only to add another more powerfull and almost mandatory, oh and don't forget that they dont want you to feel obligated to get them..... I think they really should add more dev notes what they are trying to accmplish with changes, because as for now, imho all that rogue changes are just plain stupid.

[Deleted]

What I wrote on an other thread :

Overall not so bad, but i think their choices are bad. I'm ok with numbers tunings but, as a sub player, i don't think they really know what to do.

They should smooth the rotation in addition, and here is my thinking as improvements :
- Put Shadow Dance 5 seconds baseline, because we're actually forced to play with Subterfuge and we shouldn't be. Other talents are just meh even with buff. 3 seconds Shadow Dance is gameplay weakness.
- Put Shadow Strike 35 energy baseline to smooth rotation overall.
- Add Shuriken Storm in Shadow Nova Artifact Trait, but RNG is bad. Need to figure out a way to make it use without being too powerful.
- Rework Fortune's Bite Artifact Trait. How bad is it to put a proc chance over an other proc chance... Just make this trait increase chance to get one.
- Maybe rework a bit Shadowblades.

The spec is fine overall, can't deny it. But these smalls changes made accordingly to a number tuning, so that we don't become too overpowered, would be great.

I really hope it is just 1st pass of class changes, and we get some actual damage buffs, aside from that, legion legendary situation is one big LOL for me... They nerf one legendary only to add another more powerfull and almost mandatory, oh and don't forget that they dont want you to feel obligated to get them..... I think they really should add more dev notes what they are trying to accmplish with changes, because as for now, imho all that rogue changes are just plain stupid.

Nobody said it works with Shadow Dance. It is supposed not to work indeed. But we don't know for now.

[Steelwind]

you don't "lose" energy on a proc from the 6th combo point, it's a bonus proc with no actual cost.

the "real" benefit of deeper strat includes the fact that the 6th cp adds an additional proc chance for anything based on per cp usage, which includes finishers, as you said.

It's also worth noting that the double proc is useful in more situations than "SS-SS-evisc-ss-ss". Getting full energy off a finisher when you're starved is immensely useful

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you shadowstrike in a 2 or 3 (maybe 4) target situation, and shuriken storm in 4-5+ target situations.

Shadow nova becomes a cleave-type ability like it was meant to be, with the rng potential to be stronger than it is now.

"Like it was meant to be."

I'm glad you have insight on what the talent was meant to be. To me it seemed like a pretty clear AOE ability (stealthing is woven into our AOE rotation to triple SS damage) but now that we know what the developers intended it makes the nerf that much easier to swallow.

/s

[elfporn]

"Like it was meant to be."

I'm glad you have insight on what the talent was meant to be. To me it seemed like a pretty clear AOE ability (stealthing is woven into our AOE rotation to triple SS damage) but now that we know what the developers intended it makes the nerf that much easier to swallow.

/s

Of course it's an aoe ability, all cleave type stuff falls into that category.

The recent change reveals how the devs want it to be used. It makes sense. Though if they split our aoe capabilities through forced gameplay, they should buff nova damage.

I'd much rather it work with shuriken storm though, just like everyone else.

[Maelstrom51]

That's just your interpretation of what the Devs' intentions are. My interpretation is that the devs simply wanted the trait to be more controllable due to complaints that PvPers have had.

[elcapone]

That's just your interpretation of what the Devs' intentions are. My interpretation is that the devs simply wanted the trait to be more controllable due to complaints that PvPers have had.

thats just a bad design choice they made and we are getting punished for it.

[Discostick]

Can we start a petition or something to get shadow nova a like 15% proc chance off of SS? Idk about you guys but my Sub AoE is dogshit.

Without legendary boots, sub isn't doing as well compared to other classes and specs.
This legendary is too good, nerf it is OK.
But they should buff sub rogue to balance the damage reduction.
I don't know why they still nerf master of sub and master of shadow.
This patch will make sub unplayable.

Master of sub should already have been replaced with weaponmaster, weaponmaster is far better, so whatever on that nerf.

Master of shadow on the other hand is a huge nerf, especially with the boot nerf.

I don't consider stratagem a sub nerf since it's hitting every spec, but the fact that assass is seeing some minor buffs while sub is getting no buffs in return is really going to hurt sub rogue players, honestly, I read the golden trait changes and was excited but then I came to the realization that they are so minor and our AoE actually gets dogged on that I've already began rerolling to a different class with more utility and insane damage.

[Seliar]

That's just your interpretation of what the Devs' intentions are. My interpretation is that the devs simply wanted the trait to be more controllable due to complaints that PvPers have had.

This change doesn't solve the problem, actually I think it's worse than the current one. At least on live you can for 100% know when you will "explode" but on the ptr it just happens randomly. You won't be able to sap and blind any mob or player if they are within range of another target, cuz you will just randomly hit them out of cc.

[Deleted]

They finally fixed the Goremaw's Bite bug with Weaponmaster procs. RIP Sub.

[Maelstrom51]

They finally fixed the Goremaw's Bite bug with Weaponmaster procs. RIP Sub.

Now if only they would fix the bug where Akaari's Soul doesn't benefit from damage increasing buffs.

Edit: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752285345

If you want to see this fixed, like this bug report and maybe leave a comment. Maybe someday they'll fix bugs that hurt us too.

[fluteroll]

Can we start a petition or something to get shadow nova a like 15% proc chance off of SS? Idk about you guys but my Sub AoE is dogshit.



Master of sub should already have been replaced with weaponmaster, weaponmaster is far better, so whatever on that nerf.

Master of shadow on the other hand is a huge nerf, especially with the boot nerf.

I don't consider stratagem a sub nerf since it's hitting every spec, but the fact that assass is seeing some minor buffs while sub is getting no buffs in return is really going to hurt sub rogue players, honestly, I read the golden trait changes and was excited but then I came to the realization that they are so minor and our AoE actually gets dogged on that I've already began rerolling to a different class with more utility and insane damage.

Master of sub
Agree with you, so I don't know why they nerf this talent
Master of shadow
My experience is I can cast shadow dance 21 times in 5min combat. This nerf make sub lose 21 energy/min. 3.5% haste could offer 21 energy/min. It's a huge nerf
Stratagem
It is a huge nerf (about 2.5% total damage nerf). But when T19 come, maybe we will choose anticipation prevent wasting cp.
Shadow Nova
If I use 4 shadow strike in shadow dance (1.2 nova), 3 shadow strike in vanish (0.9 nova).
5min combat cast 4.2 shadow dance and 0.5 vanish
(old version) give us 4.2+0.5=4.7 nova
(new version) give us 4.2*1.2+0.5*0.9=5.49 nova
It is a 16.8% buff, but shadow nova almost give us 2% total damage. So totally buff is ~0.33%

I think this tuning will make sub decrease 5.5% total damage (still not consider base critical rate nerf).
Sub is not dealing high damage now without legendary boots.
And with the nerf of legendary. You can't make excellent damage even when you get legendary boots.
If this change is patched, sub will lose its position in PVE.

[ainurr]

Weaponmaster no longer causes Goremaw's Bite to deal excessive damage when it activates.

no hidden artifact skill -.-

[jarhu]

Nobody said it works with Shadow Dance. It is supposed not to work indeed. But we don't know for now.

It may be supposed to work or not. We can not know without devs telling it. Regardless, if it would work with SD then it would be broken OP. If it doesn't work then this legendary is yet another below mediocre legendary.

[lolpve]

That's just your interpretation of what the Devs' intentions are. My interpretation is that the devs simply wanted the trait to be more controllable due to complaints that PvPers have had.

The pvp community didn't care about controlling it we wanted it to not break CC. Now with it being less predictable it will make it even worse in pvp since you can't just sidestep when dance is expiring.

The devs are cretins, worst of all celestation and holinka.

[Deleted]

I'm glad they moved Shadow Nova out of Stealth. A lot of times I extra pulled something I didnt want in outdoor to because there is weird interaction with Sprint->Vanish trait. On the other hand, I would have baked in the Shadow Nova into Shuriken Storm, not Shadow Strike, but then it would overlap A LOT with the Second Shuriken trait. Either rework Shadow Nova and keep it in Shadow Strike or rework Second Shuriken and put Shadow Nova into Shuriken Storm.

Also, the nerfs to both MoS make no sense. Subtlery rotation is CLUNKY, we need the energy regen from MoShadows. They also nerf the boots that make the rotation very smooth. Do they want Haste to be an atractive stat or what?

Since I'm a casual, I will keep playing Subtlety until the end of days

[Deleted]

I'm glad they moved Shadow Nova out of Stealth. A lot of times I extra pulled something I didnt want in outdoor to because there is weird interaction with Sprint->Vanish trait. On the other hand, I would have baked in the Shadow Nova into Shuriken Storm, not Shadow Strike, but then it would overlap A LOT with the Second Shuriken trait. Either rework Shadow Nova and keep it in Shadow Strike or rework Second Shuriken and put Shadow Nova into Shuriken Storm.

Also, the nerfs to both MoS make no sense. Subtlery rotation is CLUNKY, we need the energy regen from MoShadows. They also nerf the boots that make the rotation very smooth. Do they want Haste to be an atractive stat or what?

Since I'm a casual, I will keep playing Subtlety until the end of days

Totally agree on the Shadow Nova weird interactions / accidently pulling, and also a fellow casual sub4lyf.

The thing is Shadow Nova needs to work in a way that doesn't make you feel bad for using Shuriken Storm (i.e. at the moment on PTR you're either going to remove shuriken storm from your bars because you want to make use of the golden trait in cleave, or you may aswell not have the golden trait 'cause you'll be shuriken storming for max CPs, and golden trait is just a rubbish version of akaari's soul in single target encounters). It also needs to work in a way that doesn't clunkily break CC / pull mobs out of your control (love on live de-stealthing in suramar to pick up ancient mana, only to pull 5 nearby nobles).

I think anyone could come up with a solution that's better than what's on PTR and is cohesive to the sub playstyles. I posted three possibilities in another thread the other day that would be in the player's control and still permit the use of shuriken storm:

Goremaw's Bite interaction: Goremaw's bite now empowers you with Volatile Shadows for X seconds, causing you to explode for aoe shadow damage every time you use a combo point generating ability (not that interesting IMO, but at least it interacts with shuriken storm and allows you to keep using it).

Nightblade interaction: Each time your combo-point generators hit a target afflicted with nightblade they have X% chance to detonate a shadow nova on that target (so single target you will still get it a little bit, but aoe you could get a it alot if you spread nightblade like a mad-man and spam shuriken storm).

Shadowstrike interaction: Shadowstriking a target marks them with an Unstable Shadow for X seconds, which detonates for aoe shadow damage if that target is hit by a shuriken storm (so you could do something like shadowstrike the priorty target, then shuriken storm him for extra aoe, finisher then repeat).

[Coldkil]

Also, the nerfs to both MoS make no sense. Subtlery rotation is CLUNKY, we need the energy regen from MoShadows. They also nerf the boots that make the rotation very smooth. Do they want Haste to be an atractive stat or what?

Since I'm a casual, I will keep playing Subtlety until the end of days

Welcome to the "casual Sub and fun" club

Anyway, currently simc shows me haste being below the other three stats (mastery, crit, versatility) with mastery winning only by a little even without the boots. With the boots (nerfed or not) we would have even less need for energy regen, so haste should drop even more its value.

Subtlety in general doesn't need hast as a stat - or better, we don't need the energy regen from it; we get more dps from other stats. Point is that fitting 4 shadowstrikes in a dance requires lot of energy and tbh i'd be way happier with a base cost reduced of the skill for a baseline smoother rotation, with the boots improving it.

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Nightblade interaction: Each time your combo-point generators hit a target afflicted with nightblade they have X% chance to detonate a shadow nova on that target (so single target you will still get it a little bit, but aoe you could get a it alot if you spread nightblade like a mad-man and spam shuriken storm).

I like this a lot. Would reward the spreading of the dot, and will make SS the choice for ST and cleave, while SStorm will be the choice for 3+ targets.

[Mafic]

That's just your interpretation of what the Devs' intentions are. My interpretation is that the devs simply wanted the trait to be more controllable due to complaints that PvPers have had.

The problem is that it doesn't solve the problem in PVP and makes things worse for PVE.