Ion on brewmasters

[Rohjub]

Ever since the start of the expansion, although I main MW, I've been trying out Brewmaster now and then in Mythic + because I like the play style and I've played tanks since TBC. I really feel that the spec would be a lot more satisfying to play if Purifying Brew removed all of the Stagger (or at least more than it does now) . It's really frustrating to feel that you're working to to build up stagger by being a good tank and using your active mitigation ... and then not much happens when you try to clear it. I even briefly considered taking the talent that increases the amount of stagger cleared .. if it had given a different defensive bonus other than dodge.

[Deleted]

No one in this thread has proven his claims, both sides are just opinions, thats why it will never lead to anything. I would be very annoyed if the would change Brewmasters in a significant way right now. I totally love my Brewmaster and apart from maybe getting Dizzying haze back or Statue Baseline, because it is already such a niche thing, that i dont get why it should waste a talent slot. I like that you have to work a bit harder ( not really that hard) to get where a Druid is by just standing around.

I totally think Tsharna is right on many points, there are many Players who don't complain and like their Brewmaster or another Class/Spec XY. I am laughing my ass of reading some of the Posts in this Thread and many other Threads in the Monk Forums, so much Drama about almost nothing.

In this you are correct. Lots of oppinions. However, telling someone that his oppinion is flawed without explanation why...with support of facts/data is just.... howt o put it...adding fuel to the fire.

The facts are there:
- a group of players feel that the class/spec is not playing optimal;
- or that they perceive that the playstyle is not fun compared to how it was;
- Zen Meditation is not a universal usefull defensive CD (and to me its sad that, with the announced updates to the legendary items, you must have the helmet to make zen meditation usefull in more then just a few niche situations);
- we do not bring any unique raid utility;

All the claims on this forum about how bad BMonks are, were NOT backed up by math and proper arguments in the first place. With "perception" and "feeling" - sure yeah. They are both an important part of gaming. But my perception and feeling can differ vastly. Now let's go down to your own "math" and "proper arguments".

"The fact that brew monks are PERCEIVED as bad/subpar." - key word "perception" - it's not a "fact" that BMonks ARE bad/subpar, nevermind how hard you try to make it sound logical. Not math nor proper argument. Also that perception is based on how many voices as opposed to how many silents? No clue, right?
"The fact that half of the allready few players who play brew are finding the spec not-fun." - this is NOT a fact. This is an assumption which lacks "math" completely. Show me numbers please and how you got them.
"The fact that monks are not played widely." - numbers please. I guess you COULD be right, but do you have them? How do they compare to other specs?
"But you haven't adressed why that still makes raidleaders accross the globe pick other tanks over brew tanks." - numbers please. Again you possibly COULD be right, but do you have them? There are raid tanks (7/7M) on this forum - BM players. Did you talk to them? Did you talk to their GMs?
"the main concences is that Monks are the worst tanks." - is that this "proper argument" you mentioned?

These are all your statements. Aside from these, I also found this one:
"I like totem for picking up the adds. PRoblem is that i still sometimes misjudge its range and accidently pull more than intended... " - so are you a l33t pwnz0r or still trying to get there?

You're talking all perception and expect others to change it for you and prove to you that your PERCEPTION is incorrect with arguments you don't value yourself (because you're not giving them in the first place - math for example or numbers)? That's the "mature stance"? Not in my world really.

- - - Updated - - -

"We would all benefit from a different attitude then the one you are displaying." Yes man. Very much so. Start with yourself
I ENJOY MY BMONK and apart from VERY MINOR stuff (i.e. Dave - come back, Dave!) I don't think they lack anything.

I have not voiced my own oppinion yet of brewmaster all that much. I tried to dodge it but I guess I dont have too keep my oppinion to myself regarding our spec.

I think brew tanks are fine. I feel some small talent tweaks could be made and that there is room for us to have some unique raid uttility. I loved the idea of a raid-wide stagger CD. It would in no way reduce the damage but it would make incomming huge burst raid-wide damage be managable for healers. It would sway the oppinion allot of raidleaders have to wanting to bring a brewmaster.
I LOVE the current stagger mechanic and the shared pool for both ironskin and purifying brew. It makes our class challenging to play compared to other tanks. I do not think we are in a bad spot, but I do feel that compared to my fellow raiding tanks and offtanks I got off with a worse deal. I have often been asked to tank due to proven performance and you won't hear me complain personally. But I do still feel like I take more damage, albeit maybe more manageble. Some small tweaks would make me happy.

However, I do understand that some people who love to play Monk feel like they have to work so much more harder for the same and some times less positive results compared to other tanks. I find this to be the exact reason why I play monk. I love that monk pushes me during raids to overthink my next abbility, this proves to be true for my two specs: WW and Brew. Personally I dont want them to change/alter to much in our specs, but again... I do understand that for some players its harder to accept that WW/Brew are specs which require more than average thought during their rotations and require more than average planning of abbilties/cd's throughout a fight.

But thats what WoW has been fighting since Alpha. The more skilled players who take enjoyment out of challenge and the less skilled (casuals if you will) players which want a plug-and-play type of character. Monk is not the latter. Allot of classes/specs are. I do think in that regard that Blizz missed the mark. They stated over and over again that they have the design philosphy that they want an accessable build for all classes/specs. That the players who invest time and effort have a chance to excell by being able to get the max out of every aspect of their spec/class.
With monks there is no: if you play the class you will be able to do fine. With monks its a hard class/spec to play and even harder to master (for the casual joe).

*steps off soapbox*

[Deleted]

(...)
*steps off soapbox*

*applauds*

One more thought I have voiced before:
you CAN go press-all-buttons-on-cd build as a BMonk with Dave, RJW and no BoC - if the argument is that this build performs worse than a comparable bear, BDK or paladin build, I agree totally ... but I have no issue with that
bear tanking got me so bored I left it with 2 golden traits and some 840ilvl
paladin tanking got me even more bored (the only fun parts are the mounted combat and shield fling really) and it's rotting with 2 golden traits and some 820ilvl
BDK got me least bored but still way less fun than my monk and it's dusting with 2 golden traits and some 850ish ilvl - maybe if they had more movement ... like WAAAAAY MORE

- - - Updated - - -

and let's be clear on bear - I love Galactic Guardian ... and that's all I love about ze beast

[Deleted]

*applauds*

this made me LOL.

I forgot to add one more point where I do agree upon. I think that brewmaster's are completely shafted on their artifact weapon talent tree. I don't think its good... at all... its neigh worthless after having sunk 15-17 talent points in it. Seeing its my offspec, I shouldn't complain I guess cause it enables me to again focus on my WW artifact due to this.... but ye...

[Raakel]

But again, something must have gone wrong if you simply judge by the numbers. BrM is the least played tank and that can't be caused just by false community perspective.

For me they dismatled the spec, it went into pieces and what they put back together feels ok but lost its soul it once had. Like a broken vase tampered together.. Yes it's still a vase again and get's the vase job done but dunno.... I do like the planing ahead part of the current BrM however.

[Deleted]

But again, something must have gone wrong if you simply judge by the numbers. BrM is the least played tank and that can't be caused just by false community perspective.

For me they dismatled the spec, it went into pieces and what they put back together feels ok but lost its soul it had once. Like a broken vase tampered together.. Yes it's still a vase again and get's the vase job done but dunno.... I do like the planing ahead part of the current BrM however.

Well I think it has something to do with the class Monk itself. Monks never were popular and I personally know 3 monks who rerolled when DH came out. So to me it could be that due to the introduction of a really iconic class Monks dwindled even more in population.

[Deleted]

I'll add my 2 cents to this conversation, coming from a 871 Vengeance Demon Hunter (main) and 861 Brewmaster Monk (alt), who's cleared M+8, 7/7 HC EN, and 3/3 N ToV. So this might not be a top end look on both of the tanks.

Last night after working hard on my Monk to get it to the point of taking it into Heroic Emerald Nightmare, I felt perfectly fine on most bosses. However, on both Elerethe and Xavius, s*** hit the fan. After the first attempt on Xavius I was fed up with and took my DH and more or less carried the raid, instead of feeling the raid had to carry my monk.

Now this is most likely a player issue. But with my DH I don't have the feeling I have to micromanage everything, and I'm a LOT higher on my dps compared to my monk. On my monk I feel I have to pay so much attention to my brews, stagger, rotation with BoC, while on my DH it's mostly autopilot, without having to worry about when I should purify or not. I'll just pop Empower Wards or Demon Spikes if I need survivability and keep some orbs around for a big heal inbetween.

The thing is, I loved playing a BrM monk back MoP and WoD. It felt so rewarding perfecting your stagger and purify decisions, now it just doesn't feel rewarding at all, only stressful.

Again, inexperienced look on the BrM spec nowadays, but I'd take my DH > BrM any day. It's not the survival issue, it's that BrM immensely takes a lot more focus on the basics of tanking, and it doesn't bring me more utility compared to DH (lack of good AoE snap threat with RJW if Keg is on CD, ranged interrupt and AOE silence/fear on DH). Even my personal Resto druid healer (which I'm on Skype with during raids/dungeons) would rather have me take my DH > BrM, even though my DH is hella spiky.

Won't be benching my monk just yet, awaiting what they'll do to it in 7.1.5.

I'm sorry I failed you my fellow BrM monks.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry I failed you my fellow BrM monks.

A simple "sorry" won't do, mate. You basically cheated on BMonks by going to bed with the most recent fotm class. That's just ... bad karma, man. Personally DH didn't sit with me so much it's not even 102 yet. Benched and forgotten ... and I had PLANS for it, but meh

[Deleted]

A simple "sorry" won't do, mate. You basically cheated on BMonks by going to bed with the most recent fotm class. That's just ... bad karma, man. Personally DH didn't sit with me so much it's not even 102 yet. Benched and forgotten ... and I had PLANS for it, but meh

Hey it's not like I went to bed with a guardian druid!

Don't get me wrong, I'm still loving my monk, will be keeping it geared, doing my dailies, getting that AK (even though I really dislike the BrM traits).

But for now, I see no reason to switch from my DH > BrM, even though I would love to! Especially with how they're changing DH in 7.1.5... They're receiving some real love.

[Deleted]

In this you are correct. Lots of oppinions. However, telling someone that his oppinion is flawed without explanation why...with support of facts/data is just.... howt o put it...adding fuel to the fire.

The facts are there:
- a group of players feel that the class/spec is not playing optimal;
- or that they perceive that the playstyle is not fun compared to how it was;
- Zen Meditation is not a universal usefull defensive CD (and to me its sad that, with the announced updates to the legendary items, you must have the helmet to make zen meditation usefull in more then just a few niche situations);
- we do not bring any unique raid utility;

Na, not saying the opinions are false, but there are many Brewmasters who like the class as it is. I don't know why Zen med is such a huge thing for some guys here, has it's uses for cenarius spears or Renferal Wind thing sth like that, but i don't personally need it for more. I Have the Legendary, so maybe i will use it in the future, but i doubt that. I am totally ok with my Fortifying Brew as a CD for some Big Pulls in M+, but in raids i do not even need it most of the time.
Yea as i said, would like to have some range pickup like throw glaive as a DH -> Dizzying Haze maybe?
I personally don't think Tanks need raid utility, that's why i dont really care, but of course i wouldn't be sad about getting some.

[Xahz]

That is a design problem. Monks have been under represented since inception.

I think there are several factors to that.

(1) Outside of MoP monks still don't feel like they fit within Azeroth, or the rest of the world. IMO and others feel this way they feel very much out of place.

(2) Performance. If Monk's (any spec) totally kicked ass (pun not intended) you would have a lot of people, fotm or otherwise, switching over. They haven't ever really been amazing, and so they are under represented.

(3) Is really a problem with roles. Introducing new roles the raiding design, offers opportunity for specialization.

None of your points have anything to do with why monks are underplayed. There are literally only three reasons:

1. They're a fairly recent class.
2. They start at level 1
3. As a new class, they're less enthralling than Demon Hunters or Death Knights

Anyways, while Monks have always been unpopular, Brewmaster is historic levels of underplayed right now. I'm getting tired of hearing patronizing crap from game developers about how we're all ignorant to the class's true strength, when the entire reason that public perception is skewed against Brewmaster is because they fucked up the design so bad that no one understands how they work. Adding such a complicated tanking spec to a mass-market MMO was a mistake to begin with, but the fact that they reworked an existing, functioning spec to do it is downright criminal. Brewmaster needed some changes coming into Legion for sure, but it didn't need to become their sandbox. I didn't roll Brewmaster back in MoP because it was the most complicated spec in the game, I did it because it was fun thematically and I enjoyed the mechanics. There will always be people who fight back against every major rework, and they're not always indicative of the larger population, but I think the numbers speak for themselves in this instance. If players were happy with Brewmaster they would be playing the spec.

[intrinsc]

I'll add my 2 cents to this conversation, coming from a 871 Vengeance Demon Hunter (main) and 861 Brewmaster Monk (alt), who's cleared M+8, 7/7 HC EN, and 3/3 N ToV. So this might not be a top end look on both of the tanks.

Last night after working hard on my Monk to get it to the point of taking it into Heroic Emerald Nightmare, I felt perfectly fine on most bosses. However, on both Elerethe and Xavius, s*** hit the fan. After the first attempt on Xavius I was fed up with and took my DH and more or less carried the raid, instead of feeling the raid had to carry my monk.

Now this is most likely a player issue. But with my DH I don't have the feeling I have to micromanage everything, and I'm a LOT higher on my dps compared to my monk. On my monk I feel I have to pay so much attention to my brews, stagger, rotation with BoC, while on my DH it's mostly autopilot, without having to worry about when I should purify or not. I'll just pop Empower Wards or Demon Spikes if I need survivability and keep some orbs around for a big heal inbetween.

The thing is, I loved playing a BrM monk back MoP and WoD. It felt so rewarding perfecting your stagger and purify decisions, now it just doesn't feel rewarding at all, only stressful.

Again, inexperienced look on the BrM spec nowadays, but I'd take my DH > BrM any day. It's not the survival issue, it's that BrM immensely takes a lot more focus on the basics of tanking, and it doesn't bring me more utility compared to DH (lack of good AoE snap threat with RJW if Keg is on CD, ranged interrupt and AOE silence/fear on DH). Even my personal Resto druid healer (which I'm on Skype with during raids/dungeons) would rather have me take my DH > BrM, even though my DH is hella spiky.

Won't be benching my monk just yet, awaiting what they'll do to it in 7.1.5.

I'm sorry I failed you my fellow BrM monks.

I main'd a brm in warlords and the removal of guard was a real huge change to the point where I couldn't have fun with it anymore.

[Deleted]

Anyways, while Monks have always been unpopular, Brewmaster is historic levels of underplayed right now. I'm getting tired of hearing patronizing crap from game developers about how we're all ignorant to the class's true strength, when the entire reason that public perception is skewed against Brewmaster is because they fucked up the design so bad that no one understands how they work. Adding such a complicated tanking spec to a mass-market MMO was a mistake to begin with, but the fact that they reworked an existing, functioning spec to do it is downright criminal. Brewmaster needed some changes coming into Legion for sure, but it didn't need to become their sandbox. I didn't roll Brewmaster back in MoP because it was the most complicated spec in the game, I did it because it was fun thematically and I enjoyed the mechanics. There will always be people who fight back against every major rework, and they're not always indicative of the larger population, but I think the numbers speak for themselves in this instance. If players were happy with Brewmaster they would be playing the spec.

This.

They took the most enjoyable tank spec and they threw it to wolves. I don't care much about numbers, I just hate how it is now and I tank with my monk only when it is absolutely necessary

[Segus1992]

In spite of all the complaining going on, let's at least acknowledge the great buff to the previously shitty Zen Meditation legendary.

[Deleted]

In spite of all the complaining going on, let's at least acknowledge the great buff to the previously shitty Zen Meditation legendary.

Its sad that the headpiece is a near must have, because it fixes an in my oppinion otherwise largely useless defensive cd

[Raakel]

I don't care much about numbers, I just hate how it is now and I tank with my monk only when it is absolutely necessary

But numbers are exactly what counts - they are facts.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/classes

There's always a natural flow to the best performing spec. I don't think it's the monk theme itself which is unpopular because the "natural flow" towards performance (fotm) is a simple rule that aplies to all classes. The numbers are evidence that something is missing or wrong within Brewmasters or eventually monks in gerneral. So it's not a matter of perspective as Ion would like us to believe. Nobody is saying it's impossible to play Brewmaster but imo they took a wrong path when laying out the spec's design for Legion. As a decent class designer you should pick up the facts instead of defending your own perception.

[keqe]

Zen Med is far from useless though. It just has too long CD for what it does. The effect is still very useful.

You could use it on nythendra explosion (if you for some reason were low on it).
You could use it on violent winds/raking talon on Elerethe.
You could use it for the double shade breath on dragons. The only dangerous spot on the fight pretty much. Minor but still useful.
You could use it for second beam from the ilgynoth big add. Was quite handy during first week when doing zerg strat and healers were quite busy.
You could use it to save yourself from 3. nightmare blast if double dryads took long or just low for some reason, or make smaller pool from spear.

5/7 bosses in EN it was useful. Very useful on 3. For what it does the CD is too long. But completely disregarding it is dumb.

- - - Updated - - -

But numbers are exactly what counts - they are facts.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/classes

There's always a natural flow to the best performing spec. I don't think it's the monk theme itself which is unpopular because the "natural flow" towards performance (fotm) is a simple rule that aplies to all classes. The numbers are evidence that something is missing or wrong within Brewmasters or eventually monks in gerneral. So it's not a matter of perspective as Ion would like us to believe. Nobody is saying it's impossible to play Brewmaster but imo they took a wrong path when laying out the spec's design for Legion. As a decent class designer you should pick up the facts instead of defending your own perception.

That site only takes info from 2/7M progress and above. The "top" (yes it is top while not cutting edge) will go for FOTM much more than regular joes will. So those graphs aren't really fitting to this context.

[Deleted]

But numbers are exactly what counts - they are facts.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/classes

There's always a natural flow to the best performing spec. I don't think it's the monk theme itself which is unpopular because the "natural flow" towards performance (fotm) is a simple rule that aplies to all classes. The numbers are evidence that something is missing or wrong within Brewmasters or eventually monks in gerneral. So it's not a matter of perspective as Ion would like us to believe. Nobody is saying it's impossible to play Brewmaster but imo they took a wrong path when laying out the spec's design for Legion. As a decent class designer you should pick up the facts instead of defending your own perception.

Class representation isn't only about what is fotm. Casuals (most of the players) cares only if is class/spec a fun to play even if it is in the middle of the pack. HC raiders takes what performs best for progression even if it is completely fcked up spec fun wise.

[Deleted]

HC raiders takes what performs best for progression even if it is completely fcked up spec fun wise.

That's why DHs win even after Method rated them worst for progress raiding (along with BMonks) but kings of 5man? Do you really want to tell me DH tanks perform best for mythic raiding? All serious?

[Deleted]

That's why DHs win even after Method rated them worst for progress raiding (along with BMonks) but kings of 5man? Do you really want to tell me DH tanks perform best for mythic raiding? All serious?

Don't remember if there was a single one in first 20 kills, but I saw mostly prot warriors and guardian druids and some pallies. Top guild on my server ended up world 20 and they switched from dh tank because he spiked so much.