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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by SirreASDF View Post
    Spamming instant casts is not good design imo..
    I LOVE the BM PVP talent that resets KC if you hit a target below 30% HP. You spend the last ~90 seconds of a world boss spamming KC, watching huge Jaws of Thunder crits go by, and DB when it's up (provided someone of the opposite faction got hit by Stomp at some point).

    But that's not that common, so it's a nice reward.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingoomieiii View Post
    I LOVE the BM PVP talent that resets KC if you hit a target below 30% HP. You spend the last ~90 seconds of a world boss spamming KC, watching huge Jaws of Thunder crits go by, and DB when it's up (provided someone of the opposite faction got hit by Stomp at some point).

    But that's not that common, so it's a nice reward.
    I can agree with that actually being okay, but you'd also be locked on focus doing that, so you won't be global cooldown locked 100%, which you will be by spamming Arcane shot since it generates focus and is free to cast.

    Similar mechanic, yet slightly different.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingoomieiii View Post
    I LOVE the BM PVP talent that resets KC if you hit a target below 30% HP. You spend the last ~90 seconds of a world boss spamming KC, watching huge Jaws of Thunder crits go by, and DB when it's up (provided someone of the opposite faction got hit by Stomp at some point).

    But that's not that common, so it's a nice reward.
    It is indeed fun, but KC is a spender so you are limited by focus and it does great damage.
    Arcane Shot is a builder and does nothing.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbypro View Post
    I wouldn't worry about numbers too much, there's enough hunters and the massive nerdrage will get noticed by Blizz.

    Look at warlocks, they collectively lost their minds about their numbers and some of their specs got buffed and are really strong. Gameplay might still suck but they can't change that easily.
    Fuck the numbers. That will always sort itself out. The mechanics are everything, and MM feels so incredibly shitty to play on the PTR it isn't even funny.

    I was going to reroll before Legion until SW/PS became the way to play and it finally felt a little bit smooth. We also had a nice little niche we could settle in that was relatively strong for most encounters (except ST), so it was manageable. But to take that away as well and leave us with a pile of shit?

  5. #165
    Dunno why they had to reinvent the spec so early, all we needed was a slight nerf to cleave, slight buff to ST and we're golden. Barrage nerf to sporadic target seems to have done the deal for cleave, maybe the same can be done for Marked shot cleave all other targets except main target get like what 10% less damage? 20? Keep Sidewinders and vulnerable applying the same, and maybe use the same principle for vulnerable from PTR to live to buff our ST, dunno just talking out of my ass here, mix our wants/needs with their bullshit reinventions.

  6. #166
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    Considering the class changes haven't been posted or finalized isn't it a bit early to get upset? Half the community complained about how bad sidewinders sucked being mandatory. Now they change it and the sky is falling?
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  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Considering the class changes haven't been posted or finalized isn't it a bit early to get upset?
    Maybe but it's not too early to express a civilized polite feedback about it because the "let's just wait and see" always ends up the same way.

    Now ,we can be somehow adults and not polarize the issue into:

    A) Everything is fine. Every complain is stupid. Your momma...

    or

    B) I will sacrifice my first born so Ion gets rectal cancer if this changes go live.

    Now the question I really want to ask is: did they achieve the goal? Does hunters have now more build options or are we just switching from old build A to build B?
    Last edited by mmoc62b007bee2; 2016-11-16 at 04:54 PM.

  8. #168
    not achieved, its still old build a vs b

  9. #169
    I am attempting to theorycraft the viability of 7.1.5 MM as currently on PTR. If they change things, awesome, because this does suck. If not, well, best to be prepared.

    My current rotation modeling work is at reddit (/r/wow/comments/5dafqg/715_mm_theoretical_rotation_math/), which I can't link directly because I pretty much never used this account. I wouldn't mind input, especially from anyone with expertise with modern simcrafting tools (as this is nontrivial to model).

    TLDR: I think there's a path forward with salvageable ST damage and, well, nonzero AE, but no splash/cleave as we know it. But it appears to require near-total regearing for most players, so I'd like to stay on top of the modeling.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Sim View Post
    SV:
    5% Crit nerf.
    New Ability: Waylay. Traps become "better" after not triggering for 2 seconds.

    BM:
    Barrage nerf

    MM:
    Aimed Shot buff
    Arcane Shot Buff
    Marked Shot Buff
    Sidewinders Nerfed
    Patient Sniper moved to lv 60 row.
    Sentinel Buff.
    Barrage Nerfed.
    More like

    SV:
    5% Crit nerf.
    New Ability: Waylay. Traps become "better" after not triggering for 2 seconds.

    BM:
    5% Crit nerf.
    Barrage nerf

    MM:
    5% Crit nerf.
    Barrage nerf
    Aimed Shot buff
    Marked Shot GIANT NERF
    Sidewinders Nerfed

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Considering the class changes haven't been posted or finalized isn't it a bit early to get upset? Half the community complained about how bad sidewinders sucked being mandatory. Now they change it and the sky is falling?
    To be fair, people didn't complain that Sidewinders was mandatory. The complaint was that Patient Sniper AND Sidewinders together was mandatory. Now they make Patient Sniper baseline and destroy Sidewinders? I don't understand where they are going with this. In one pass they are forcing us to play Patient Sniper and breaking the one synergy that made the rotation work.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Honestly, I wouldn't change that much. Even if I did remain MM. Far too costly. The books aren't easy to craft thanks to the rare pigment being so rare.
    Exactly this. Actually, I'm pretty much already set on how it will be right now. Crow for raids, Barrage for dungeons (possible crow for high mythic+, not sure). Single target dps is way more necessary for raids than aoe damage especially the more and more gear you get. Just look at HFC, for instance. You had HFA and Iskar, but eventually as your group geared beyond both, your value as an AoEr diminished very quickly. I played a warrior then and I felt weaker and weaker the more the expansion went on, giving way for the high single-target specs like Subtlety/Arcane. Now looking at hunter in EN, we have Helya/Il'gynoth, both of which we'll lose major value in very quickly.

  13. #173
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    Didn't BM get a buff to damage of the Hunter and all pets instead of it only applying to Hati?

  14. #174
    Okay, I did not expect this, but some VERY rough naive modeling suggests these changed MIGHT provide a single target dps gain. Not looking at "real" SimCraft here, just raw weapon damage scaling, but...

    The core Live rotation is SW - AiS - MS - AiS - AiS. For a number of reasons (SW recharge, proc rules, focus management), that isn't sustainable. But it is a first order approximation of MM behavior. And I am fine erring high on the Live model here because the regearing necessary to produce my 7.1.5 model sacrifices quite a bit for haste in an apples-to-apples benchmark.

    Meanwhile, I am increasingly convinced the core 7.1.5 rotation is MS - AiS - AiS - AiS - [AS x6]. That is not best-case, but it should do for estimation purposes.

    Ignoring the fact that AiS (and AS) have wacky modal behavior, let's just consider Weapon Damage coefficients. SW scales only with pure AP, but standard conversion rates suggest we can approximate it as a 60% WD attack. Live AiS under Vulnerable is a 510% attack, and MS under Vulnerable is a 625% attack. If we treat that as a 9 second repeating block, we get 246%WD/s. But we know SW has a 12s cycle time; averaging over 12s provides 185%WD/s. Reality, which includes other abilities to fill (plus the infamous MM downtimes), lies somewhere between the two.

    In the 7.1.5 model, MS is a 250% attack and doesn't get used under Vulnerable. The three AiS, accounting for the new Patient Sniper, are 575/650/725% respectively. AS is a 150% attack with effectively no modifiers. This sequence is (essentially) sustainable, and provides ~221%WD/s over the 14s window.

    That eyeballs reasonably against our quick and dirty Live model, and the 7.1.5 version benefits from non-model aspects, like LNL procs, more than Live because of (in that case) Patient Sniper scaling. In pure ST dps environments, Trick Shot alone is worth > 8%WD/s (and possibly much more depending on stacking interactions) for the 7.1.5 model.

    AE is harder to model at this level of abstraction. Losing SW and Vuln/MS is terrible, but AiS + Patient + Trick is better than it looks. Will have to wait till I can build models that reach real numbers to determine.

    TLDR: If you change everything about the MM playstyle and regear heavily, I think we can break even give or take a little.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahraa View Post
    More like



    MM:
    5% Crit nerf.
    Barrage nerf
    Aimed Shot buff
    Marked Shot GIANT NERF
    Sidewinders Nerfed
    How is Marked shot a 'Giant nerf'?

    Marked Shot Rapidly fires shots at all targets with your Hunter's Mark, dealing (250% of weapon damage) Physical damage and making them Vulnerable for 30 7 sec. Vulnerable Damage taken from Marked Shot and Aimed Shot increased by 50% for 30 100% for 7 sec. 100 yd range. Instant.

    It does the SAME amount of dmg only the Vulnerability has changed. Aimed shot will hit like an ION Cannon and in PvP Arcane shot will reck everything in that burst window.

    Please enlighten me cus right now you come across as misinformed QQ.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by spaceape View Post
    How is Marked shot a 'Giant nerf'?

    Marked Shot Rapidly fires shots at all targets with your Hunter's Mark, dealing (250% of weapon damage) Physical damage and making them Vulnerable for 30 7 sec. Vulnerable Damage taken from Marked Shot and Aimed Shot increased by 50% for 30 100% for 7 sec. 100 yd range. Instant.

    It does the SAME amount of dmg only the Vulnerability has changed. Aimed shot will hit like an ION Cannon and in PvP Arcane shot will reck everything in that burst window.

    Please enlighten me cus right now you come across as misinformed QQ.
    Because SW no longer applies Vulnerable, MS drops from (effectively) 625%WD to 250%. Even know unusual situations where you are able to MS before the previous Vulnerable expires (either because you were focused starved during a burn or you just wanted to front load AE burn), the "baking in" of old Patient Sniper doesn't apply to MS, so the +150% modifier is nerfed to +100%.

    Separately, Arcane Shot doesn't live in burst windows, even in 7.1.5. Rather, the build as it exists on PTR uses it (often!!) as a necessary evil.

  17. #177
    Has anyone actually tried it out on ptr? Yes there's no cleave but tbh lore wise why would a marksman class have cleave, I was getting so frustrated in 5mans having to worry about not pulling the entire dungeon. From my testing on the ptr it appears to be somewhat of a significant ST dmg buff.

  18. #178
    Even with the current item build and everything MM hunters are lacking focus-regen (i guess you are in a better situtaion if you have the haste proc trinket from arcway at this point) and sometimes you have to autoattack only because of that and they decide to nerf focus regen of sidewinders. Plus only valuable thing about MM is the strong aoe even with the broken barrage we have yet they decide to nerf it's damage by %50. I do not understand at all why they are doing that.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitai View Post
    Because SW no longer applies Vulnerable, MS drops from (effectively) 625%WD to 250%. Even know unusual situations where you are able to MS before the previous Vulnerable expires (either because you were focused starved during a burn or you just wanted to front load AE burn), the "baking in" of old Patient Sniper doesn't apply to MS, so the +150% modifier is nerfed to +100%.

    Separately, Arcane Shot doesn't live in burst windows, even in 7.1.5. Rather, the build as it exists on PTR uses it (often!!) as a necessary evil.
    I wouldn't worry too much about damage numbers until near the final tuning pass. They may buff Aimed Shot even further if our damage is too far behind.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saurox View Post
    Has anyone actually tried it out on ptr? Yes there's no cleave but tbh lore wise why would a marksman class have cleave, I was getting so frustrated in 5mans having to worry about not pulling the entire dungeon. From my testing on the ptr it appears to be somewhat of a significant ST dmg buff.
    Please tell me you're not testing against a target dummy.

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