Ion on brewmasters

[Deleted]

But the graphs you linked (biggest % of DHs in m-kills) along with your statement about HC raiders would mean that DHs are the best mythic tanks, mate. Your own evidence (it's called anecdotal) says otherwise. So what is it? Maybe that's what's up with monks too? Everyone focuses on their anecdotal evidence, as we really can not process this general numbers we have access to? Blizzard can see who moved from which class to which, when, at what point of their gaming experience, etc. If it was more the "filthy casuals", the "movie lured gamers" or the l33t pwnz0rs who switched their mains, from which class/spec to which etc. Players can not - the data available to us is too general. This leaves us all with anecdotal evidence, which is so flawed it's the basis for something called "faulty logic". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdo...e#Faulty_logic

Maybe we should all be aware of all this when discussing the class we play (and if we don't, why linger in this forum? ).

- - - Updated - - -

Also something to be aware of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[Deleted]

Its sad that the headpiece is a near must have, because it fixes an in my oppinion otherwise largely useless defensive cd

That legendary is way too powerful. That "doesn't break after the first hit" part should be baseline. 50% reduced cooldown alone is crazy, but the not breaking part is what the skill needs to be really useful instead of "situationally useful".

[Saberstrike]

Also, not everyone's a raider, and given how the game has gone out with a 'every class should be able to do anything' mantra , and that 'tanks and healers should be comfortable doing quests' ...

I feel like this is where brewmaster is the biggest disappointment. It used to be a whirling ball of death that has p. much been replaced by demon hunters in the 'aoeing self healing mobile tank' department, as far as non-raid content goes. Hell Mistweaver questing is faster! And given how OP windwalker is for anything that isn't a 5-man boss, well. Yeah.

I won't say DH is straight up better, but the fact is it's simply easier and much more comfortable to play as a tank in all forms of content. It is telling to how brewmaster's design falls apart when things go beyond 'a boss, a few dedicated healers, and some good dps to kill it'. Brewmaster just about 'works' in a raid setting; However, you're better off just not touching the spec during questing, mythics or pvp.

Brew has never been viable in pvp, and to this day it is the only spec that literally never had a place in bgs, rbgs or arenas.

[Deleted]

I use BM spec for WQ constantly ... it's slightly slower than WW, but way more secure. Especially on 112 enemies. Maybe I started to overgear and overtrait WQ enemies though.

[Deleted]

But the graphs you linked...

I didn't linked anything, please stop with this crap already.

[Deleted]

I didn't linked anything, please stop with this crap already.

Sry - you're right. It was a link in reply to your note:

Originally Posted by Raakel
But numbers are exactly what counts - they are facts.
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/classes

[A dot Ham]

None of your points have anything to do with why monks are underplayed. There are literally only three reasons:

1. They're a fairly recent class.
2. They start at level 1
3. As a new class, they're less enthralling than Demon Hunters or Death Knights

Anyways, while Monks have always been unpopular, Brewmaster is historic levels of underplayed right now. I'm getting tired of hearing patronizing crap from game developers about how we're all ignorant to the class's true strength, when the entire reason that public perception is skewed against Brewmaster is because they fucked up the design so bad that no one understands how they work. Adding such a complicated tanking spec to a mass-market MMO was a mistake to begin with, but the fact that they reworked an existing, functioning spec to do it is downright criminal. Brewmaster needed some changes coming into Legion for sure, but it didn't need to become their sandbox. I didn't roll Brewmaster back in MoP because it was the most complicated spec in the game, I did it because it was fun thematically and I enjoyed the mechanics. There will always be people who fight back against every major rework, and they're not always indicative of the larger population, but I think the numbers speak for themselves in this instance. If players were happy with Brewmaster they would be playing the spec.

Ok Mr. Expert.

Yet you provide an equally if not more erroneous and subjective list.

1. 4 years is hardly a recent especially if you put that in perspective that is 1/3 the entire length of the MMO
2. That isn't stopping people from picking up other classes as alts, also how many boosts have we received thus far with purchases of xpacs? 2? So assuming you just couldn't be bothered with leveling from 1, wait for a free boost? Not interested in wasting that on a monk? See my other points.
3. Less enthralling (or as I said, doesn't fit thematically) which is a design problem

[Extremities]

I am somewhat split with how I feel about the Brewmaster. I will say that I do enjoy being one of those rare classes that people see. I often times get, "oh wow, a Brewmaster" comments. Sometimes I get "you're the most difficult tank to heal" and at the same time I'll get "you were the easiest tank to heal" comments. I think our "image" is skewed right now as we're the most complex tank and when someone plays it well, it looks good to healers. When someone plays it bad, healers notice and hate us. So of all the tanks, If played well, it shines, if played shitty, it shines in the opposite direction. Its either you're good or you're shit. No in between. Other tanks don't currently suffer that issue.

I have played him through all the changes(Voicing concern through the way, I won't deny that), ups and downs and after getting gear(Which Im still sub 30% haste as some guides recommend getting), I can honestly say I love him. Out of ALL the tanks, he by far is the most complex and requires a lot more of juggling things, more micromanaging than any other tank but once you get a hang of things, we are pretty good. I wouldn't say we're on par with the main tanks it seems this expansion(Guardian and Paladin) but I can say that any encounters where a boss has a HUGE hit, I soak it better than any other tank out there. We have our ups and downs thats for sure but by no means would I label us as "very strong" as Ion has. Goes to show he probably has never played the class for any decent amount of time.

So, complexity and challenge, it's the most of any tanks to get the same benefit so to me thats eh but the good is our ability to soak huge hits really well and if you get decent at juggling BoC and its effect on the following ability, it shines in some ways. Self healing is a bit odd. Of all the tanks I can honestly say I am the LEAST afraid of reaching low thresholds of HP on the Brewmaster and that's because of our orb summoning ability once we hit 35%. If you focus on spamming the consumption of the orb, its pretty damn difficult to kill you. Aside from that, our self healing is rather bland.

[A dot Ham]

I disagree entirely here. WW Monks are more than fine, they are good and competative. They are however, underrepresented.

How does that equate to "totally kicking ass"? Fine, good, and competitive are not words that would make ME feel like it was worth the time to level up.

Now if they were on par with say fire mages, or something. Top DPS competitors people would switch. That is why it is imperative to have a somewhat balanced performance. Not the disparity we are seeing between ALL dps specs and their performance. The performance difference between classes should almost be negligible, they aren't. Words like "fine", "good" and "competitive" paint a picture of class that is very middle of the road, and boy howdy do people love spending time leveling and gearing up to be mediocre. How are MW monks... meh I get by. Ooooooh how compelling let me jump right on that.

[Extremities]

How does that equate to "totally kicking ass"? Fine, good, and competitive are not words that would make ME feel like it was worth the time to level up.

Now if they were on par with say fire mages, or something. Top DPS competitors people would switch. That is why it is imperative to have a somewhat balanced performance. Not the disparity we are seeing between ALL dps specs and their performance. The performance difference between classes should almost be negligible, they aren't. Words like "fine", "good" and "competitive" paint a picture of class that is very middle of the road, and boy howdy do people love spending time leveling and gearing up to be mediocre. How are MW monks... meh I get by. Ooooooh how compelling let me jump right on that.

Not necessarily. Most people you talk to, chances are they don't like Monks because both aesthetic and mechanical reasons. On top of that, Ranged typically has an easier time in raid encounters so people take the easier route of the 2. Both the Brewmaster and the WW Monk take some paying attention and micromanaging. WW for example, if you do not keep up your stacks of Hit Combo, your damage suffers pretty largely. I do know from people in a guild I raided with, people didn't like all those things, aesthetic reasons, mechanical reasons, having to manage buffs, etc so they stick to "easier" specs or class I guess you could say. Not saying WW is difficult to play but it DOES require micromanaging of buffs that I know most people don't enjoy doing.

[Juken]

Would massively buffing a class that is perceived to be bad improve it's standing in the community? Prooobably not... let's slightly nerf crit instead. That'll do it. /facepalm

Would buffing the proc % of Obstinate Determination from 35 to 50-60 be too much? It would almost certainly reduce healer anxiety. I'd be completely content with making Purify a separate cooldown and buffing OD.

[Deathzero]

Would massively buffing a class that is perceived to be bad improve it's standing in the community? Prooobably not... let's slightly nerf crit instead. That'll do it. /facepalm

Every agility user received it. Don't make it like they went out of their way to specifically target monks.

[Julmara]

maybe give us some healthstone like ability in form of beverage

[Flurryfang]

are you seriously suggesting its ok for tanks to not be able to not be able to do some content, requiring those players to sit forever on said content and let other people do it? I can't even..

I am not saying, that they should not be able to, quite the opposite actually, but when it comes to balance, i think it is insane to expect tanks to be balanced when it comes to high-end content.

Every single type of tank should ofcourse be able to clear the content, which is laid out for them. If some tanks were 1-shotted at m+15, then they would be seen as broken, but that is not the situation. The situation we have, is that some tanks take more dmg then others in some situations and that is okay Just because some people prefer 1 tank over another, does not mean that the other tank is broken or useless.

Note: So to sum up, yes there is a difference in the power lvls between the tanks, but it does not seem to stop every kind of tank to be part of the mythic raiding scene. As Ion has said before, the power lvl of different classes is often made up by the playerbase and not the games actual numbers. When people find that warrior is 2-5% stronger then monk, for example, then people call Warrior unbalanced compared to monk, even though they both can easily take care of tanking and warrior is just overdoing it by 2-5%.

[Deleted]

I really wish people would stop pretending that it's "complex" or some "high skill cap" class. It's not.

I'd say it's "hard to learn, easy to master".
Once you understand how he works, it's just simple rotation stuff. But understanding the spec is the difficult part and takes a while and that makes brm unattractive for most players

[Tech614]

I'd say it's "hard to learn, easy to master".
Once you understand how he works, it's just simple rotation stuff. But understanding the spec is the difficult part and takes a while and that makes brm unattractive for most players

Convoluted does not = difficult.

What it does however is create false difficulty out of ignorance. The spec should not be as convoluted as it is for this very reason.

[Deleted]

I really wish people would stop pretending that it's "complex" or some "high skill cap" class. It's not.

Yeah I kind of agree with you the most complex it gets is if you are using BoC and you don't have to, you could just as easily play with LB and HT.

[Deleted]

Yeah I kind of agree with you the most complex it gets is if you are using BoC and you don't have to, you could just as easily play with LB and HT.

I'd love to not play with BoC but 15sec BoF cooldown is too annoying

[Tellof]

maybe give us some healthstone like ability in form of beverage

Like a raid-wide Healing Elixir? Could be cool. Maybe a little OP.

[Julmara]

healthstone like warlocks already got em just as a drink