[TV] Westworld

[Paarthurnax]

FUCKING CALLED IT TEN DAYS AGO. Well, the part that he was an AI, at least. It may well be that he's Arnold's consciousness instead of Arnold himself, though. Since he is Ford's creation, I have to believe the Dolores/Bernard conversations were in the past, because it's the same location, which we found out is a "beta" lab, and that Bernard in those scenes is actually Arnold. Keep in mind, Dolores is definitely hiding things from Hopkins - the one time she has a sit down with him, he asks her questions and she responds "correctly" and as soon as he leaves the room she says "He doesn't know." I think the maze and everything to do with the maze is Arnold/old Bernard.

I thought it interesting that Theresa asked if this is what happened to Arnold, and Ford had a seemingly throwaway question to Bernard: "Bernard wasn't here back then. Were you, Bernard?" It's almost like he was testing Bernard's programming, to see if he had gained the self-consciousness that he was indeed Arnold in another body.

Now i'll have to re-watch the first few episodes to pick up on more subtle clues during Bernard/Dolores's conversations. We know they have been having these conversations for a while and the room it is taking place in looks allot like the room we just saw in this weeks episode. Couple that with the "prototype Dolores" plans i think its more and more likely that she is some sort of sleeper agent designed by Ford to infiltrate/find/destroy the maze. Even if she isn't consciously aware of this fact since she was pretty open to Bernard but not so much to Ford himself.

It's a clash of Arnold's rogue code trying to give the hosts consciousness or make them self aware, thus creating true AI and Ford's desire for absolute control and that lack of control makes them more free then real people.

[eschatological]

I doubt he is, simply because I don't believe they would be able to recreate an actual person as an AI, it would just be a mediocre knock-off. Would require immense intimate knowledge of that person. Unless Arnold made himself as an AI.

Well yeah, I think he's probably Ford's approximation of Arnold. Obviously Ford added things like the backstory of his son Charlie and his wife. I think Ford was probably looking most for Arnold's level of intelligence, with a new sense of loyalty. There's no indication that the current Bernard is in anywhere close to the Arnold/Bernard-in-the-basement(?), but I think Ford's questioning of whether Bernard remembered being there when Arnold died is pretty telling. If Bernard is in no way related to Arnold, the line is a complete throwaway because Ford would know exactly when Bernard came into being.

HOLY SHIT RANDOM THOUGHT: Bernard Lowe is an anagram of Arnold Weber. I don't know if they've ever mentioned Arnold's last name, but it seems more than a coincidence that Arnold's name can be found in Bernard's. CONFIRMED MOTHERFUCKERS.

[Arrowstormen]

Does it even matter though? What would it change?

[eschatological]

It could fuck up Ford's plan, if Arnold's consciousness breaks through in Bernard. Plus, if Arnold made the maze, and Bernard can become Arnold, that's something beyond Ford's capabilities.

[Deleted]

Is Ford the villain tho? He's fighing teh evul corporashun!

Exactly. Ford is the hero. The bitch had it coming.

On that note, I have a feeling that the host that was already being built in Ford's little secret basement there was actually Theresa, and Ford will replace the real Theresa with a host. I know it actually seems quite obvious at this point, but still. If this is true, it lends credence to the possibility of Bernard having been a real person at some point, as well. Also, I have a feeling Ford has quite a few hosts working for him, including some in the board.

This is a spoiler from IMDb, so it's information not yet shown on the show; Sidse Babett Knudsen, or Theresa, is marked down as appearing in 9 episodes of the show on IMDb. I can't recall if there's been an episode she wasn't in yet, but seeing as though there are 3 left, she'll be on the show at least in 2 more episodes, possibly 3. Which should support my hunch that Ford is replacing her with a host.

[Haviland]

Is it possible, Ford is a clone of Real Arnold. Arnold made him to help in the creation of Westworld. Then it turns on him and the Real Arnold is hiding/trapped deeper in the game, slowly trying to escape.

[Sorshen]

Exactly. Ford is the hero. The bitch had it coming.

On that note, I have a feeling that the host that was already being built in Ford's little secret basement there was actually Theresa, and Ford will replace the real Theresa with a host. I know it actually seems quite obvious at this point, but still. If this is true, it lends credence to the possibility of Bernard having been a real person at some point, as well. Also, I have a feeling Ford has quite a few hosts working for him, including some in the board.

This is a spoiler from IMDb, so it's information not yet shown on the show; Sidse Babett Knudsen, or Theresa, is marked down as appearing in 9 episodes of the show on IMDb. I can't recall if there's been an episode she wasn't in yet, but seeing as though there are 3 left, she'll be on the show at least in 2 more episodes, possibly 3. Which should support my hunch that Ford is replacing her with a host.

Agreed.
Also, I guess the 'update' is probably there to trigger the memories of some particular hosts (Dolores, etc.) that were personally made by Arnold. It probably took Ford this long to get close to Arnold's programming.

[Feredir]

Westworld has officially been renewed for a second season by HBO. http://www.ew.com/article/2016/11/14/westworld-season-2

But here is the sad part, because of the scale of production for this series, it will likely not air until 2018.

[Endus]

I'm really not feeling the Bernard/Arnold theory.

1> Arnold was a real guy. People knew him. Bernard's a relatively high-profile employee, and he meets with people constantly. The chance of someone noticing he looks WAY too much like Arnold did is just too high. It's a stupid risk.

2> Arnold was "experimental", and was pushing things in ways Ford wasn't prepared for them to go. If Arnold was enough of a problem that Ford had him killed (as seems increasingly likely), he'd have NO reason to bring him back in host form, and it wouldn't contribute the same thing Arnold used to, since he'd have to remove the entire mentality that made Arnold a valuable partner in the first place.

3> Downloading actual memories and uploading them into a host is tech we just haven't been shown, and it's arguably way more out there than the rest of the stuff we've got, a HUGE leap forward. Screw partying with hosts in Westworld; if they have that tech, they've developed immortality. Download yourself into an optimized host body that doesn't age and is perfectly reparable, as well as being stronger, faster, and just overall better than human. If they have this tech, THAT would be the story, not Westworld, and it would render all this other stuff pretty moot.

4> Besides, there's always the better (IMO) possibility that Arnold's still alive. Ford's got secret installations, we can imagine Arnold probably set something up, too. Fake his death, possibly with a host he created that looked like him and would pass muster (that's just physical, bypasses the memory download issue). It may even be that Arnold and Ford aren't enemies, and have been secretly collaborating on all this. In which case, "Bernard Lowe" might just be an "Easter Egg", or he may have been their first go-between after the faked death (which would also explain the "you weren't there then, were you Bernard" comment).

[eschatological]

I think we have to see who kidnapped Elsie and what she's up to.

Also, it's been an episode since we've seen MIB.

[-aiko-]

Trigger warning! I'm using spoiler tags just in case, because people never learn to stay out of threads about TV shows they are not caught up on.

What an episode. I suspected it, but confirmation of Bernard being an AI still took me by surprise. I feel like I need to re-watch the whole season and keep an eye on everyone.

That's not what I wanna talk about though. I'm starting to worry that the William = Man in Black theory might be true. It has probably been talked about quite a bit in this thread, but all the signs are there. We know that William is a good guy, and that Man in Black runs some kind of foundation that saves lives. We know that William is here with Logan and their company is looking to buy out Westworld, and Man in Black mentions to Ford that the park almost fell apart but didn't thanks to him. William chooses a white hat at the very beginning and we are seeing him start to change, which would be a really nice contrast/transformation to the Man in Black. We know Man in Black is very familiar with Dolores and William just...well....you know.

Anyway, those are just the ones off the top of my head. There is a lot of evidence there, but I just don't like the theory. For one it would be underwhelming and anti-climactic if it were really something so obvious. For two, I just don't think it fits William. People change, and you'd definitely become desensitized to the game if you had played it for 30+, but it still doesn't sit right with me and can change really be so severe? For three, I want to wipe the smug smirk off the faces of all those internet jerks who insist the theory is correct and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot.

There are also some counter-points to consider. The big one for me is that Ed Harris and Jimmi Simpson don't look that much alike so it would be really bad casting. IMO one of the defining traits of William is the moles/freckles on his cheek, something Man in Black does not have. It's also odd that there are no real visual differences between the hosts in William's adventures vs the ones in Man in Black's. Wouldn't there be much more progress in 30+ years?

Then there's good ol' Dolores. If her transformation with William is really happening in the past, and Dolores is on track to be the cause of the first Westworld disaster, why is she still in commission in the future? They're so quick to decommission other hosts, would Dolores' tenure as one of the original hosts really be enough to save her if she almost ruined the park? Some scenes also wouldn't make much sense, such as Dolores having a vision of MIB assaulting her and then afterwards running into William/Logan. I guess clever editing and quick transitions from past/future could kind of explain this but /shrug

Whatever happens, fucking loving this show so far. I might be more invested in this than even Game of Thrones! Keep it up, HBO.

[Tradewind]

I'm still set that if the multi timelines theory proves to be correct that Logan is in fact the Man in Black, just due to this not being his first trip to Westworld and being a repeat Black Hat, which would match up with what MiB had been saying in earlier episodes, like "opened one of you up..."

I think William has to die. Whether in the park, or due to other circumstances (illness?).

After the corporate takeover, Teddy is programmed as an homage to William, whether due to what happened to him or as a request by Logan (latter is less likely cuz of their interaction in ep1). Or Teddy is just a copy of William's experiences collected as part of the Westworld TOS. Reason behind this is the first interaction William had with Dolores is identical to Teddy's loop.

[ItachiZaku]

Then of course the "what door?" right before the reveal

Yep, I was curious and wasn't 100% sure, but that "they could be standing right in front of it and not see it... what door?" I was like, oh holy shit, that's awesome!

- - - Updated - - -

Hopkin's expressions during the test with Clementine was just brilliant lol, he didn't buy any of their bullshit.

That little twitchy smirk had me rolling.

- - - Updated - - -

HOLY SHIT RANDOM THOUGHT: Bernard Lowe is an anagram of Arnold Weber. I don't know if they've ever mentioned Arnold's last name, but it seems more than a coincidence that Arnold's name can be found in Bernard's. CONFIRMED MOTHERFUCKERS.

Nice catch.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a spoiler from IMDb, is marked down as appearing in X episodes

That's caught me a few times over the years. See someone hot and new, try to see what else they've been in, then... oh, only X episodes... shit.

[Tradewind]

That little twitchy smirk had me rolling.

Absolutely, I love Hopkins, but as Dr. Ford I love him even more.

[eschatological]

Back to the Ford-not-buying-Clementine's behavior thing....


...we, as the viewers, *know* that some of the AI are fucked up. Yeah, Theresa and her cronies at corporate set up Clementine to do that, but Maeve and Dolores are both off the reservation. So, the fact that Ford didn't buy their bullshit probably means he has no idea Maeve is so far fucked up. I thought the scene where Maeve thought she was going to be snatched instead of Clementine was pretty indicative of the misdirection they're trying. It seems like to me, Maeve will be instrumental in Ford's downfall.

[Endus]

Back to the Ford-not-buying-Clementine's behavior thing....


...we, as the viewers, *know* that some of the AI are fucked up. Yeah, Theresa and her cronies at corporate set up Clementine to do that, but Maeve and Dolores are both off the reservation. So, the fact that Ford didn't buy their bullshit probably means he has no idea Maeve is so far fucked up. I thought the scene where Maeve thought she was going to be snatched instead of Clementine was pretty indicative of the misdirection they're trying. It seems like to me, Maeve will be instrumental in Ford's downfall.

It all depends on what Ford's end purpose is. They've been REAL cagey about that. It's clearly not the financial success of the park, nor is it whatever secret project the corporation is using the park to fund. He's been antagonistic towards both. It certainly doesn't seem to be any humanitarian concept, since he's totally willing to murder people. I think we can safely assume his "I just want to tell my stories" bit is just that; a bit.

I'm currently presuming that Arnold's not dead, that Arnold's in his hidey hole at the center of the maze (if you look at the image, it looks like there's a stick figure in the center). And that he and Ford are waging a secret war of ideals; Ford thinking he can create perfection through control (the most recent episode, he basically spelled this out in his speech in the bunker) and Arnold taking the side of free consciousness, "awakening" the hosts. What we see with Maeve/Dolores is Arnold's work. I think Ford's consternation at Clementine's behaviour was largely because it was so obviously robotic; a switch got tripped and she went into ninja killer mode. Contrast this with how Maeve handled a threat when the guys came for Clementine, and she thought it was for her; she was calm, controlled, and patient, and very much HER. If Ford saw that, he'd know Arnold got to her, because that's what he's looking for; consciousness. Clementine showed none of that, which is why his initial concern turned into "fuck you corporate bastards" by the end of the demo.

[Gaman]

HOLY SHIT RANDOM THOUGHT: Bernard Lowe is an anagram of Arnold Weber. I don't know if they've ever mentioned Arnold's last name, but it seems more than a coincidence that Arnold's name can be found in Bernard's. CONFIRMED MOTHERFUCKERS.

And Weber is a 100% fan made last name.

[Arrowstormen]

And Weber is a 100% fan made last name.

If it was real, and if he had watched anime, people would probably have called him Doctor Weeber.

[eschatological]

And Weber is a 100% fan made last name.

Weber is also the only relatively common Anglo-Saxon name that can be formed from those letters. Maybe there's a Dutch Bewer or something out there, idk. When I realized Bernard's name had all the letters of Arnold's name, I did a quick google search to see if Arnold's last name had ever been revealed, and it came up with the admittedly-fan-conjectured Weber.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm currently presuming that Arnold's not dead, that Arnold's in his hidey hole at the center of the maze (if you look at the image, it looks like there's a stick figure in the center). And that he and Ford are waging a secret war of ideals; Ford thinking he can create perfection through control (the most recent episode, he basically spelled this out in his speech in the bunker) and Arnold taking the side of free consciousness, "awakening" the hosts. What we see with Maeve/Dolores is Arnold's work. I think Ford's consternation at Clementine's behaviour was largely because it was so obviously robotic; a switch got tripped and she went into ninja killer mode. Contrast this with how Maeve handled a threat when the guys came for Clementine, and she thought it was for her; she was calm, controlled, and patient, and very much HER. If Ford saw that, he'd know Arnold got to her, because that's what he's looking for; consciousness. Clementine showed none of that, which is why his initial concern turned into "fuck you corporate bastards" by the end of the demo.

I keep circling back to WHY people aren't noticing Maeve's behavior. As Asian tech guy himself said this episode, if she keeps offing herself every day to "get to the real world" people are going to/should notice. Plus, those guys also upped her intelligence score so high but no one has noticed that either. I'm not sure how these systems could be edited so easily without oversight. The fact that she's a "manager" and was pushed way above the acceptable intelligence max for managers and didn't trigger an alert of some sort is either a huge, gaping plot hole, or indicative of some larger plot where someone is ignoring it/allowing it to happen. There's a Hemsworth in this show and we haven't seen very much of him, maybe he figures into it.

[Endus]

I keep circling back to WHY people aren't noticing Maeve's behavior. As Asian tech guy himself said this episode, if she keeps offing herself every day to "get to the real world" people are going to/should notice.

To be fair, short streaks of that can be propped up to "guests are bastards". But as the guy noted, long streaks will stand out, hence his advice. They've covered this, so it's not being ignored.

Plus, those guys also upped her intelligence score so high but no one has noticed that either. I'm not sure how these systems could be edited so easily without oversight.

There's been a few times they've checked a host's info, and they've always had to do it with the host right there, and they had a reason to bother checking. I imagine part of this is a "don't poke the bear" attitude fostered by Ford for his own purposes, but these are also complex systems and unless you've got reason to think something's gone wrong, little reason to check the underlying elements.

The fact that she's a "manager" and was pushed way above the acceptable intelligence max for managers and didn't trigger an alert of some sort is either a huge, gaping plot hole, or indicative of some larger plot where someone is ignoring it/allowing it to happen.

Like I said, I just don't think there's any way to access/check that stuff without accessing it from Maeve directly. So nobody would notice unless they had Maeve right there, and at this point, Maeve would take issue with that, and they can't shut her down.