Are all of the 7.1.5 class changes complaints justified?

[Lucetia]

If you heard that it will be raining today, and several people came wet to your office saying: "Dem, that is a rain!", should you go out to check it yourself? Being stubborn = bad.

Ok, so you are comparing something to visually being seen to something that actually has to be tested? It's not being stubborn in this case that is a stupid comparison and doesn't even equate to being the same.

[rda]

So you want to complain and you haven't tested anything yourself? So if one of the people you chose to believe said to you that mages dps dropped 90% you would believe them? As you can see the point here is don't believe everything people tell you. Do the work yourself.

All you are doing with this is distracting from the issue.

Are you saying hunters / mages / whoever's numbers are wrong? If so, which numbers exactly and in what way? But you don't know because you haven't tested - which you claim is a pre-requisite for posts on class balance.

So, your whole contribution is "I don't know how things are, but I bet you don't know either and so you have to shut up and I have a moral high ground because I am keeping calm". It's a pretty weak contribution. It's also definitely not about class balance, it's just a generic position, and frankly, pretty boring and useless.

And in the end, when you get to the numbers, you'll find exactly what the complainers are saying. Yes, some math is going to be wrong, but most of it is going to be true. Speaking from experience here. I've been on the measuring side of things many, many times and, yes, the forums are full of opposite opinions, but complaints about big things like the ones in this patch have real ground, I assure you. And your position is making things worse, not better, you are creating that sense that things are terribly complex and so they might be OK basically out of thin air.

So, take your own advice and do the numbers. The guys at the roots of the complaints did them, see class discords for example. Others who aren't much into the numbers themselves are looking at these results. Until you come with numbers that show that everything is fine - either yours or someone else's, doesn't matter (well, to me, you'd obviously say that this matters) - you are contributing even less than those who did not do their own testing and are relying on the testing done by others, you are shouting without any ground whatsoever.

[Segus1992]

No. Complaining just makes you look like a child. Put in some leg work, come up with well written responses and complaints and then they'll take them more seriously and be able to evaluate it other than "Nope, this isn't going to work try again".

All these threads remind me of this thread taken directly from the official forums (and sounds like most here in some way):

YOU STUPID IDIOTS. Fire was fine the way it was, in defense to those who wanted it nerfed, they meant balance the spec, NOT MAKE IT USELESS. Once again Blizzard, you proved, that every time you tell us good and exciting news (like 7.2), there has to be an immediate disappointment following it. Learn from the mistakes Blizzard, don't create new ones.

Not to mention Blizzard has been responding to Mage threads only so far.

You say that you should make well written responses to get blue responses, and then you give us a PERFECT example of a thread where NONE of that happened, and that's what gets blue responses. Is it hypocritical or ignorant?

This dream world where only the most intelligent people and the most intelligent posting gets their voice heard isn't real, maybe it's time to accept that.

[JIMM-]

no, its not justified, they should have done their jobs properly during beta before legion release

they ignored all feedbacks n are only making changes now , to the wrong direction

[Sarevokcz]

Lastly, Blizzard has said in the past that Frost was one of the strongest mage specs just that no one played it or did much with the artifact to notice because Fire was more desirable.

I saw Blizzard nerf Lava Burst and justify it with "its too strong, you just dont know it yet" only to massiely buff it after release. Do you really expect anyone to believe Blizzard when they say something similar?

[rda]

It's a sad state of affairs, but constructive criticism doesn't work for making devs change something on short notice, it works for future patches.

Yes.

Now, complaints don't really work either (Celestalon will just tell you to L2P if push comes to shove), but they at least signal to *the players* where the problems are, producing a heads-up.

[americandavey]

You all can say "well its just the first pass" People have the right to complain or say "wtf" People see changes that affect them greatly just because of the Artifact system. This expansion is not about, "well so and so spec is bad now, let me just switch specs. Done and Done."

BTW Shamans will always get shafted no matter what. There is a curse on that Class since Vanilla.

[Segus1992]

Yes.

Now, complaints don't really work either (Celestalon will just tell you to L2P if push comes to shove), but they at least signal to *the players* where the problems are, producing a heads-up.

Complaints have already potentially had results, and they've definitely had results earlier. Few cases where it doesn't isn't proof it doesn't work.

[bloodmoth13]

Really? Lots of QoL buffs, talent changes and talents being moved around.

Can you point me to specifics? sorry im just lazy, not saying that they arent there, just that i didnt see them

Edit: Okay, i just had another look, and i am seeing buffs to many spells, big one to ice fury, which is cool and all (im not even up to heroics yet though) i was just expecting to see some sort of gameplay changes, perhaps echo of the elements baseline since it smooths up the rotation so much more.

Im playing elemental atm so buffs for the other specs might be just going over my head, but the launch changes personally did alot for me, the shock changes went a long way in making the spec smoother, and the new @cursor conditional made EQ feel so much better, so i dont think we need HUGE QOL changes for ele, id only suggest echo being made baseline TBH.

I think the biggest thing that disappoints me for ele is the lack of animations for the shock spells, for our heavy hitting spells, they sure look bland.

[Relapses]

We don't know the full scope of the changes so people bitching about things right now are uninformed. We should save the witch hunt rhetoric for when the PTR has a release candidate.

I will say, however, that from the notes a few of the early class changes are in the wrong direction so I'm hoping Blizzard pays attention to early feedback and adjusts accordingly.

That said, they haven't in the past so I'm not gonna hold my breath.

[ls-]

It's justified.

Even though it's just the first pass, feedback is important, cuz otherwise they may and will overlook or simply ignore a lot of things.

As a dev, I should add that when it comes to public releases, you're never too early to report bugs and/or provide feedback. But ofc feedback should be adequate (you should test stuff personally) and not some "sky is falling" bullshit.

[Deleted]

Seriously Lucetia pleash hush. We have a right to complain. I have been in every last beta in wow and in every last ptr. Blizzard does not listen to us, EVER. We give then the feedback they ask for and they ignore it and stuff winds up going live that shouldn't. At this point I dont see why they bother with beta or the ptr's since they are going to do what they want regardless of what we say. We do have a right to complain it is our time and money going into this game and they ignore our voices all time. They have also been caught numerous times lying to the playerbase. So please stop white knighting them. Its disgusting

Immediately proved wrong with the last blue post. Please don't speak about things you obviously have no idea about, it's embarrassing.

On topic:
Blizzard can do what they want, if they feel like shifting the meta on which DPS are the strongest they have every right to. Before you say "MUH Artifact" or "MUH Legendary" when thinking about rerolling, those aren't really good excuses to complain. You get an instant AK +10 now on new characters and if you're rerolling a spec instead of a class you will have your research high enough to get 3 golden talents instantly. If you're farming on AK+10 you can get to your third golden talent in under a week playing casually, I've done it on 2 of my alts who were sitting on AH research for 4-5 weeks now.

Stop being flavor of the month players and just enjoy the game for what it is.

[Zenny]

I can back up the Fire Mage nerf claim, seeing a larger then 20% nerf on dummies from my copied PTR char. For a spec that is middle of the road single target, not good.

Oh and mobility and survivability was nerfed as well.

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Immediately proved wrong with the last blue post. Please don't speak about things you obviously have no idea about, it's embarrassing.

On topic:
Blizzard can do what they want, if they feel like shifting the meta on which DPS are the strongest they have every right to. Before you say "MUH Artifact" or "MUH Legendary" when thinking about rerolling, those aren't really good excuses to complain. You get an instant AK +10 now on new characters and if you're rerolling a spec instead of a class you will have your research high enough to get 3 golden talents instantly. If you're farming on AK+10 you can get to your third golden talent in under a week playing casually, I've done it on 2 of my alts who were sitting on AH research for 4-5 weeks now.

Stop being flavor of the month players and just enjoy the game for what it is.

AK is hardly a problem, spec specific legendaries are.

[kamuimac]

I can back up the Fire Mage nerf claim, seeing a larger then 20% nerf on dummies from my copied PTR char. For a spec that is middle of the road single target, not good.

\.

but when they gutted DH st whos 80 % of dmg abilites were AoE it was ok ye ? it was perfeckly ok as long as they didnt touch your class eh ? well tough luck have fun playing frost or arcane now

[Deleted]

If you heard that it will be raining today, and several people came wet to your office saying: "Dem, that is a rain!", should you go out to check it yourself? Being stubborn = bad.

Terrible analogy, you people need to stop with the whole "every day life" comparisons when talking about video games?

Whats next? Macdonalds analogy? Wait I've seen that plenty before

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no, its not justified, they should have done their jobs properly during beta before legion release

they ignored all feedbacks n are only making changes now , to the wrong direction

That is how games work now. You pay the "live game" for a game still in beta. They just call it "Legion" but its still a beta phase in reality.

[Zenny]

but when they gutted DH st whos 80 % of dmg abilites were AoE it was ok ye ? it was perfeckly ok as long as they didnt touch your class eh ? well tough luck have fun playing frost or arcane now

I don't play a DH so why would I have said anything? But Havoc was OP at launch, only a blind fool will deny that.

Also, guess what? Havoc is still stronger then Fire Mages on single target:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...962&dataset=90

So how about you stop whining about other classes and learn how to play?

[Deleted]

As a sub rogue I can't help but wonder why is blizzard so eager to tunnel/funnel (not sure of the word) every rogue towards playing sin for both pve and pvp. The sin right now is a blind damage spec that mostly comes out of things proccing while at the same time not offering any CC utility whatsoever.

Outlaw was presented as the "to go" spec from launch till the first raid making many people spend all their AP there only to see them wasted at EN launch.

As for sub? All I read about is how they will nerf it. Has any of the devs deciding on nerfs tried to play sub vs any spec warlock? Or any spec mage? Or any spec warrior? Or any spec monk? And the list can go on until there are no classes left.

What exactly is that makes sub op? Immobilizing target? OK and then what? You have stunned the guy then what. MEDIOCRE damage. Literally scratching health pools away while out of stun they all turn and one-two shot you.

I understand some devs like Holinka have a basic hatred against rogues but the game shouldn't get personal. The sub changes all they do is say "rogues go play sin and be thankful that you can at least do damage, but you can forget about smart play".

lol you can't be serious, sub rogues absolutetly destroy warlocks and most casters, even non frost mages. I don't think rogues can seriously whine about their pvp state when they have 10 times more tools and CC than any class bar monks

[Deleted]

You said it very well: Tools and CC. No damage. Any warlock worth his salt can kill a sub rogue. Just because you can't it doesn't mean Im wrong. And this is not a discussion about imaginary 1v1 duels this is about how the game feels like at 2200 3v3 and 2k RBG. Duelling your guildies outside SW doesn't give constructive or helpful information how rogues work out.

As for the generic "10 times more tools" please enlighten me as to those 10 tools. Number and name TEN tools. Compare to an arms warrior or a DK. Or even compare to a sin rogue who has no tools but he will just dot you vanish and you will die anyway.

Don't just post to flame post to provide some info.

"Rogues are weak you are just bad" kind of response uh? Classic pvp biased rhetoric. You can't have loads of CC and loads of damage. Basic balance lesson number one.

Rogues have always destroyed warlocks, maybe the problem comes from you? Thats can't possibly be the case right? Its not like facts are in favor of rogues being anti warlocks since vanilla?

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You seriously think DKs and warriors have more CC than sub rogue? Please get out of here with blatant lies rofl

[Polybius]

Some complaints are actually justified.

Spriests for example, are voicing concerns about the new changes to Void Bolt dot refresh and how it leaves a small window to barely cast VT. Insanity drains fast, so a manual dot refresh (as opposed to Void Bolt) screws over the rotation during voidform.

[Deleted]

There is nothing to debate about motorman, you complain that a warlock can kill you in 3vs3, maybe its because said warlock is peeled by his mates? Maybe you should change your team comp and not expect to rollface every caster just because you are a rogue? Maybe some specs are better at 3vs3 with peeling than battlegrounds (spriest for example)? I'm sorry you can't be FOTM in both battlegrounds and arenas, such terrible issue

Any decent rogue can totally shut down a warlock, if you complain about not being able to shut down the other teamates at the same time then I don't know what to tell you. Learn to play with good team mates?

Also for the amount of stun/kick/stun/kick/cloak/stun/kick you can make on a warlock, its only fair that your damage is not on par with frost DK. I know you dream of it, but you have sin rogues to do that