Flying 7.2 Confirmed

[Eapoe]

So how are we to know when it's being an exploit instead of intended design when it's only explained retroactively? When we're given abilities to make our characters feel powerful and fun, then later told that we were cheating?

But to get back to flying/gliding/whatever: So it's ok to skip small pieces of content, but not large pieces? What actually defines the scale of that? It would seem Blizzard is ok with using the Flight Master whistle to get around quickly, and emerald winds+gliders can skip larger areas of content. Between that combination of toys and simply riding past things on my ground mount, what content can NOT be skipped and/or trivialized in the open world? Where is the content that flight would ruin, but that combo would not?

Everyone has access to gliders and emerald winds, just like everyone had access to flying mounts. Class fantasy doesn't even really come into the equation because of that. Except in the case of class mounts which are built specifically for flying.

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Except they're giving players class-specific mounts that are absolutely designed with flying in mind. Whether or not this is simply to add to the "reward" of pathfinder, or is a sign that we'll maybe see more content developed to use these mounts, remains to be seen in 7.2 and 7.3 content.



Give me a break! Blizzard has invented entirely new technologies in order to make their game work better, or to be more convenient for players. You're asking me to believe that something like flying, which is already in the game, poses too much of a problem for them to deal with?





Oh, you mean like the massive difference in staffing and shuffling that happened between WoD and Legion, where they brought in a bunch of guys from other Blizzard teams, and a bunch of higher-end members retiring/moving on to other projects?

Some exploits are simply easy to find and identify (such as Grand Widow in Naxx where you could pull her outside of a wall and negate most mechanics) and potentially ban worthy as players know this is not the fight and shouldn't be possible, yet abuse it anyways. Others are thru in game mechanics (such as FoK on Anub) and not the intended design and was later changed retroactively.
As for skipping content, who knows what the metric is, but I'm sure the negating and skipping of the entire world is more than enough of a reason when it comes to flight.
Let's flip this reasoning of yours though, where if we have flight, what happens to all the things you try to use and justify is a reason to give everyone flight? All these class designs and profession perks are then negated. You ask what can not be skipped by what we have in the game now, yet simply look at all the things people complain about that they encounter on the ground: daze/dismount effects, dense mobs, terrain, maze like design...any and all excuses people use for wanting flight; yet, you are saying these things don't exist and aren't a problem. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways when it suits the needs of the arguement.
Everyone has access to emerald winds and gliders, yet not everyone uses these things. There is choice in these things and how they are tackled.
Who knows what class mounts are for, as from (personal opinion) they appear to be designed to look good in the sky and on the ground.
Back to technical reasons, keep in mind the combat system the game is built upon. This is the same company that stated they abandoned an entire raid because they couldn't make something that takes place entirely underwater seem fun and not cause issues with things like ground affects and movement on a spherical plane.
New people were brought in for multiple reasons, but keep in mind that the core of the gameplay design has stated the same, even with new team members.

[SirCowdog]

Some exploits are simply easy to find and identify (such as Grand Widow in Naxx where you could pull her outside of a wall and negate most mechanics) and potentially ban worthy as players know this is not the fight and shouldn't be possible, yet abuse it anyways.

That is a classic case of an actual exploit. They are abusing a bug with the mechanics of the boss fight.

Others are thru in game mechanics (such as FoK on Anub) and not the intended design and was later changed retroactively.

Whereas this is simply a case of a class ability being FAR too powerful. One is a clear exploit, the other was working as intended until being nerfed. There's a pretty distinct difference.

As for skipping content, who knows what the metric is, but I'm sure the negating and skipping of the entire world is more than enough of a reason when it comes to flight.

And how is gliding+emerald winds, or simply riding past trash mobs with dismount protection any different? Not to mention that a player still has to land in order to complete objectives, often involving killing monsters as an objective. And what about areas that don't allow flying, such as caves or buildings?

This is a classic overstatement of the "problem". Flying doesn't absolutely negate every piece of content everywhere, nor does it massively outclass other ways of bypassing or skipping content by other means.

Emerald Winds+Gliding might take a little more precision to use, but it effectively accomplishes the same thing that Flying does: Skips past parts of the content a player isn't interested in.

Let's flip this reasoning of yours though, where if we have flight, what happens to all the things you try to use and justify is a reason to give everyone flight? All these class designs and profession perks are then negated.

Except when they aren't negated, like when a person is actually in combat, indoors, or inside an instance. Flying is definitely powerful in areas where it can be used, but completely worthless in areas or situations where it can't be used. The problem is that you believe that flying should NEVER have a place where it's powerful or useful, or where it might be used to ENHANCE the content instead of "negate" it.

You ask what can not be skipped by what we have in the game now, yet simply look at all the things people complain about that they encounter on the ground: daze/dismount effects, dense mobs, terrain, maze like design...any and all excuses people use for wanting flight; yet, you are saying these things don't exist and aren't a problem. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways when it suits the needs of the arguement.[/B]

You're going to have to clarify. I don't recall ever saying that these "problems" don't exist at all. I'm sure I've said something similar, with a different intent, but if you can be more specific I'd like to address those points.

Everyone has access to emerald winds and gliders, yet not everyone uses these things. There is choice in these things and how they are tackled.

And there isn't a choice to use flying or not?

[WowIsDead64]

That is a classic case of an actual exploit. They are abusing a bug with the mechanics of the boss fight.

Whereas this is simply a case of a class ability being FAR too powerful. One is a clear exploit, the other was working as intended until being nerfed. There's a pretty distinct difference.

And how is gliding+emerald winds, or simply riding past trash mobs with dismount protection any different? Not to mention that a player still has to land in order to complete objectives, often involving killing monsters as an objective. And what about areas that don't allow flying, such as caves or buildings?

This is a classic overstatement of the "problem". Flying doesn't absolutely negate every piece of content everywhere, nor does it massively outclass other ways of bypassing or skipping content by other means.

Emerald Winds+Gliding might take a little more precision to use, but it effectively accomplishes the same thing that Flying does: Skips past parts of the content a player isn't interested in.

Except when they aren't negated, like when a person is actually in combat, indoors, or inside an instance. Flying is definitely powerful in areas where it can be used, but completely worthless in areas or situations where it can't be used. The problem is that you believe that flying should NEVER have a place where it's powerful or useful, or where it might be used to ENHANCE the content instead of "negate" it.

You're going to have to clarify. I don't recall ever saying that these "problems" don't exist at all. I'm sure I've said something similar, with a different intent, but if you can be more specific I'd like to address those points.

And there isn't a choice to use flying or not?

TL;DR Two words. 1) Hyperbole 2) Strawman

Funny thing, but Blizzard don't like, when players use hyperboles against them, but all of a sudden they use hyperboles, like "flying - is cheat, that players use to skip content" by themselves, lol. So... Third word - hypocrisy.

[GoKs]

Technically you are completely missing the point comparing a mode of travel that lets you skip content to a core gameplay element.
Since you think comparing 2 completely unlike things is somehow equatable, it's obvious that any answer given to you on the topic will just be thrown to the side. Now, if you want to talk about something like all mounts are taken away for that time, that would be a more akin subject to compare. Needless to say, I don't know how I wouldn't respond. I'd be pretty pissed to say the least, and I'd let Blizzard know (once) in a feedback forum; however, if the game is still enjoyable to me after said feature is removed (temporarily) I would still continue to play. If it's not enjoyable, then I would not. I find many aspects of the game fun and the removal of 1 of them alone would be hard telling if it would be enough to get me to quit.

Well glad to see you are one of the very few players that has 100% achievements unlocked, GRATS!! Guess you didnt skip content then, so you can preach about that. You also said in a later post that you are a raider, so you clear all the trash in the raid before the bosses?

Well, I suppose if they never stop, then why should I relent? If they have an inalienable right to sit here and lie, use hyperbole, and toss out conspiracy theories, then it stands to reason I have the same right to refute and disprove said lies and hyperbole. Not sure who appointed you as their defender, or what makes you think anyone should heed your counsel.

Where is the lies?

You're trying very hard to make it a no go, but sadly (for yours and "pro flight extremists" arguements) the logic fails completely. Not one person that goes so far as you or CowDog or even Mafic can even admit that flight is a convenience and skips content. It's now to the point that you (and others) are trying to compare requirements to raid to requirements of flying and how FP's allow skipping so flight should be okay. These are bottom of the barrel, last hope arguements.
Flight paths do not illustrate the point that you are trying to make, as explained by Dhrizzle. I'm not going to retype what he/she's already stated as it is only a few posts away.
Side note: thanks for making it easier to understand what I was trying to imply, Dh.

Okay so lets compare apples with apples then. Say they add something like pathfinder for raids/dungeons.
Dungeons: You MUST clear all normal dungeons before you can enter heroic, all heroic before mythic and for mythic+ you must get Glory of the Legion Hero achievement.
Raids: Before you may enter a normal raid, you must clear LFR first, then for heroic you must clear normal first and for mythic you must have Glory of the Legion Raider achievement.

You skip content you chose, but complain when we want to do the same..... dude the mirror will scare you!!

Do you you really expect them to add a Meta component that would take 10 additional weeks to unlock flight? You can't be serious. I get that you people hate Blizz and their stance on flight, but even that is pretty far fetched.

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Think it is time for me to chat with folks who aren't just looking for a fight. Have a nice day.

Yes, yes we do expect them to do that, we might be wrong, but I personally doubt that we are going to be wrong.
I might get infracted for this, but who took your avatar picture? It is 100% what you must look like!!

The "delay" is simply to buy time and allow them to crank out more content. Cataclysm really screwed us when it came to flight in this game. Now they're trying to correct that. The only issue in this thread is people who hate/cannot accept change. This is their direction moving forward. As long as we get flight at some point in the expac, I could care less when it unlocks.

I am happy that you could care less, now move away and let the people that care discuss their concerns.

it's like 10 months away lol..you better strap your self in because you will be waiting a very very very long time

7.3 is the last patch because it will be launched in the middle of 2018

so 7.2 would be somewhere between now and then

Dont know about mid 2018 timeframe though.

[Thimagryn]

Everyone has access to emerald winds and gliders, yet not everyone uses these things. There is choice in these things and how they are tackled.

Wouldn't this apply to flight too?

Who knows what class mounts are for, as from (personal opinion) they appear to be designed to look good in the sky and on the ground.

As a druid, our class mount looks to be sky only since it's a flight form transmog. Flight forms don't show up on the ground, it switches to the Stag/Cheetah form.

[Eapoe]

Well glad to see you are one of the very few players that has 100% achievements unlocked, GRATS!! Guess you didnt skip content then, so you can preach about that. You also said in a later post that you are a raider, so you clear all the trash in the raid before the bosses?



Where is the lies?



Okay so lets compare apples with apples then. Say they add something like pathfinder for raids/dungeons.
Dungeons: You MUST clear all normal dungeons before you can enter heroic, all heroic before mythic and for mythic+ you must get Glory of the Legion Hero achievement.
Raids: Before you may enter a normal raid, you must clear LFR first, then for heroic you must clear normal first and for mythic you must have Glory of the Legion Raider achievement.

You skip content you chose, but complain when we want to do the same..... dude the mirror will scare you!!



Yes, yes we do expect them to do that, we might be wrong, but I personally doubt that we are going to be wrong.
I might get infracted for this, but who took your avatar picture? It is 100% what you must look like!!



I am happy that you could care less, now move away and let the people that care discuss their concerns.



Dont know about mid 2018 timeframe though.

Not sure what the snide remarks about achievements has to do with anything. As a raider, yes, I clear all "necessary, required" trash to get to and then kill a boss.
Lots of people have lied in these forums, the most obvious example are those that try and pass off opinion as fact.
What content have I skipped? To enter regular dungeons I leveled and geared to 110 (required). To do heroics I did required gearing to access them, whether that was professions that or dungeon grinding. With professions I was required that buy or farm mats. To get into mythic dungeons I was required to have appropriate gear, and with m+ I was required, again, to have appropriate gear as well as cleared a mythic dungeon that get my personal keystone. Do I need to continue? Everything has requirements regardless of what you want to overlook to make your point, just some are not as extraneous as others (I've said this before to anreply to CowDog). You're trying not o act like there aren't already requirements to do other things even though they exist. No different than if I started mid xpac, while flight is enabled, for me to be required to do things for flight and me to do things that are required to enter instanced content.

[GoKs]

Not sure what the snide remarks about achievements has to do with anything. As a raider, yes, I clear all "necessary, required" trash to get to and then kill a boss.
Lots of people have lied in these forums, the most obvious example are those that try and pass off opinion as fact.
What content have I skipped? To enter regular dungeons I leveled and geared to 110 (required). To do heroics I did required gearing to access them, whether that was professions that or dungeon grinding. With professions I was required that buy or farm mats. To get into mythic dungeons I was required to have appropriate gear, and with m+ I was required, again, to have appropriate gear as well as cleared a mythic dungeon that get my personal keystone. Do I need to continue? Everything has requirements regardless of what you want to overlook to make your point, just some are not as extraneous as others (I've said this before to anreply to CowDog). You're trying not o act like there aren't already requirements to do other things even though they exist. No different than if I started mid xpac, while flight is enabled, for me to be required to do things for flight and me to do things that are required to enter instanced content.

What I am saying and the others aswell, but clearly you are to blind to see, is that you try and preach about content skip, but you skip content! The achievements are content, do you have them all? NO so stop bringing up that flight lets you skip content!! You clear all required trash... what about the rest of the trash? it is content you SKIP. So why cant I skip the mobs on the way to an objective by flying? What is the difference between you skipping some trash on your way to a boss and me skipping mobs on the way to the objective?? (Really looking forward to this answer).

In no way does anyone that fly have an advantage over some one that does not fly. Play the game on the ground if you want to, no one forces you to fly, why must I be forced to use a ground mount?

[Eapoe]

What I am saying and the others aswell, but clearly you are to blind to see, is that you try and preach about content skip, but you skip content! The achievements are content, do you have them all? NO so stop bringing up that flight lets you skip content!! You clear all required trash... what about the rest of the trash? it is content you SKIP. So why cant I skip the mobs on the way to an objective by flying? What is the difference between you skipping some trash on your way to a boss and me skipping mobs on the way to the objective?? (Really looking forward to this answer).

In no way does anyone that fly have an advantage over some one that does not fly. Play the game on the ground if you want to, no one forces you to fly, why must I be forced to use a ground mount?

Do you have to kill every single mob in the world to get flight? Do you have to collect every single treasure? Your point is again lost due to not understanding the full facts of what you are talking about. Just like CowDog trying to use class mechanics and profession mechanics for skipping, there's a difference of bypassing a small run down the side of a mountain be bypassing the entire zone. Your comparison would make more sense if you were trying to say we are allowed to skip everything up to a boss encounter, and which is not the case.

[Thimagryn]

That's a different issue completely. You don't need to kill every mob to get flight. Flight isn't responsible for doing content. Flight is being gated for skipping content, yet any content-skipping alternative is excused as being choice-driven decisions. It's hypocrisy.

If flight skips content and content is skippable by choice, then there is no problem with flight itself. You don't fight every mob in your travels towards the collecting X items area, so why is flying to that spot and avoiding those same mobs any different?

[GoKs]

Do you have to kill every single mob in the world to get flight? Do you have to collect every single treasure? Your point is again lost due to not understanding the full facts of what you are talking about. Just like CowDog trying to use class mechanics and profession mechanics for skipping, there's a difference of bypassing a small run down the side of a mountain be bypassing the entire zone. Your comparison would make more sense if you were trying to say we are allowed to skip everything up to a boss encounter, and which is not the case.

Well I cant argue with some one who cant understand basic english. Good day!

[rda]

Do you have to kill every single mob in the world to get flight? Do you have to collect every single treasure? Your point is again lost due to not understanding the full facts of what you are talking about. Just like CowDog trying to use class mechanics and profession mechanics for skipping, there's a difference of bypassing a small run down the side of a mountain be bypassing the entire zone. Your comparison would make more sense if you were trying to say we are allowed to skip everything up to a boss encounter, and which is not the case.

He's exactly right and his comparison makes perfect sense.

Everyone is skipping content. Blizzard are *promoting* skipping content in numerous ways - completely consciously and on purpose. You don't have to do all quests to level to max - you can skip more than half of them (heck, you can skip nearly all of them). You don't have to do easier difficulty modes to go to higher difficulty modes. You don't have to do reputation A before you can do reputation B (the only time they accidentally tied three reputations together in MoP was a very niche case and they learned not to do that anymore). There are things like artifact power now, there were things like conquest catch-up earlier. Etc. Blizzard *want* you to skip content.

So, it's not that skipping content is bad. Skipping content is completely fine. That flying allows to skip content is a nonsense argument against flying.

You follow?

[WowIsDead64]

There are actually 2 kinds of content:
1) Mandatory content, you have to do in order to progress, no matter if you like it or not.
2) Fun content, you actually enjoy to do.

And Wow has always had silly content design: you have to do mandatory content in order to earn ability to do fun content or to earn ability to do mandatory content faster, so you would have more time to do fun content. It's really rare occasion, when mandatory content = fun content, cuz usually mandatory content includes some sort of brainless grind. For example, back in MOP dailies - were mandatory content, that were taking all players' time and were preventing players from doing any sort of other fun content. Same with WQs. Yeah, we want to do WQs more effectively. Nothing bad in it, cuz we also want to have time to do some other things in game. For example back in MOP I wanted to have time to run some 5ppls. And Blizzard intentionally implement time-wasting game design and force us to play this way. Sorry, but when I can't get to nearby mob on my feet and have to constantly mount as the result - I want to have faster way to get to this mob, that won't waste my time. But, as I've already said, I also don't want this problem to be solve via implementing some crazy mob spawn rates, cuz it simply kills all immersion. What's the point to kill somebody, if death doesn't mean anything in MMO? MMOs stop being RPG and turn into some sort of multiplayer arcade game do to this reason. I've tried to play Wildstar. I've also tried to play GW2. Both has this problem. Yeah, things like CRZ and sharding - are good for socialization and MMO factor, but completely kill all immersion and RPG factor. The whole point in this game - group with your friends in order to play "AOE mobs, that are respawning non stop" mini-game.

[Bun-Bun]

entitled fucks finally got what you wanted... next all your gear will be titanforged and every boss drops legendaries.... gosh.. game finally became immersive and challenging... there goes that.

Got what we wanted? The announcement is bad news for me. Have to wait until 7.2 for flight to even be possible and then have to do a massive grind to get there.

Sub staying cancelled and am not purchasing Legion. I'm just glad Blizzard gave me the foresight this time instead of wasting my time and money like they did with WoD.

EDIT: And I find the class mounts to be a slap in the face. Like they put it in just to shut people up about how flight was delayed so long and gated by a massive grind.

[WowIsDead64]

I don't know. I resubbed recently to play Tanaan. I do it with flying of course. And, you know... Sky isn't falling due to my ability to fly. There is nothing gamebraking in it. Just lesser waste of time due to moving between mobs. Also. What I see - is actually plenty of players, still doing Tanaan, including even these ones, who are, surprise!, 101+, i.e. players, who have bought Legion, but prefer to do WOD content instead.

[anon5123]

People are still arguing about this?

I still don't understand why, all of a sudden, flying became a hot-button issue that people are screaming "I'M UNSUBBING!" over.

[Bun-Bun]

I don't know. I resubbed recently to play Tanaan. I do it with flying of course. And, you know... Sky isn't falling due to my ability to fly. There is nothing gamebraking in it. Just lesser waste of time due to moving between mobs. Also. What I see - is actually plenty of players, still doing Tanaan, including even these ones, who are, surprise!, 101+, i.e. players, who have bought Legion, but prefer to do WOD content instead.

Tanaan became much more engaging and entertaining with flight. More people were on, people grouped up for rares and world bosses, there was less complaining: it was more fun.

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People are still arguing about this?

I still don't understand why, all of a sudden, flying became a hot-button issue that people are screaming "I'M UNSUBBING!" over.

All of a sudden? Where have you been? No Flying has been a hot topic for the past 3 years.

[Deleted]

EDIT: And I find the class mounts to be a slap in the face. Like they put it in just to shut people up about how flight was delayed so long and gated by a massive grind.

If it turns out there is some WoDclownery gating flight, my next break from WoW might be coming a lot sooner than I expected. Funny how I needed no break during supposed "content draughts". I guess the whole concept is more of a snowflake phantasm than any real property of the game.

[WowIsDead64]

Tanaan became much more engaging and entertaining with flight. More people were on, people grouped up for rares and world bosses, there was less complaining: it was more fun.

I think, Blizzard are too stubborn to understand, that it's playstyle I prefer and can't play some other way. When I see, that other players wiped all mobs in sight, I just don't want to waste my time, while navigating through some terrible terrain - I want to hop on my mount and drop at place, where mobs are still alive two seconds later. And I hate, when mobs have some crazy spawn rates, like it was back in Cata and MOP - this crap kills my immersion. Wow is RPG - not AOE-fest simulator, sorry. Another thing, Blizzard don't understand - that some players have purely PVE mentality, philosophy and even religion. I play on PVE server for reason - because I hate any sort of competition, simply cuz any competition = PVP, playing versus other players, even on PVE server. And I want other players to be my friends by default. Socialization? There is terrible problem with any kind of socialization - any room for social behaviour always = room for anti-social behaviour. Designing game with being more effective in groups? Say hallo to stealing mobs/items, rat behaviour (stealing items, while you're in combat with mobs, who guard them), pulling whole location to leave you without mobs to kill. Why design is so binary? Why we are either friends or enemies? Why can't we be neural by default?

[anon5123]

All of a sudden? Where have you been? No Flying has been a hot topic for the past 3 years.

I didn't mean "all of a sudden" as "right now". Thanks for assuming I did, though.

Before WoD, nobody really cared about flying. In fact, people cried that they wanted it removed, because of "ruining world pvp" and such.

But as soon as WoD launched and no flying was announced, everyone flew into a fucking massive shitstorm and people started proclaiming that they're unsubbing because of no flying and OH MY FUCKING GOD HOW DARE BLIZZARD REMOVE FLYING I LITERALLY CANNOT PLAY THE GAME WITHOUT FLYING UNSUBBING UNSUBBING UNSUBBING and people tossing around buzzwords like "anti-flying" and "pro-flying" and such

I don't get it. Before WoD, flying was just a thing that was there. Then when WoD dropped, suddenly it's a hot-button, dealbreaker issue that people felt the need to argue about for 5000+ pages of MMO-C threads.

[Deleted]

Before WoD, nobody really cared about flying. In fact, people cried that they wanted it removed, because of "ruining world pvp" and such.

A minority of players were doing that. The rest of us enjoyed the game with flying, as we had for almost a decade. Then suddenly Blizzard decided to remove it. After almost a decade. Something many people considered an integral part of the game after almost a decade. Those that cared about flying, started voicing their opinions. And like my tiny signature says, I don't want to play the game if flying isn't a part of the current content. I can only speak for myself, I believe Blizzard is wrong in the way they are handling this whole flying thing. I don't care how many agree or disagree, I personally do not like it and do not want to wait for flying to be enabled in Legion. As long as it isn't available, I won't be subbing. Yes, I actually did unsub because of lack of flying. Yes, I also wrote that in the cancellation form. Yes, you can live without me being in the game. I don't care.