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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollhammer View Post
    Two words. Power Creep.
    Yep they set up the bosses to require a certain amount of dps and one class is pretty high in dps so now they buff the other classes, now the boss got trivialized because everyone is really high but yet still one class is high than the others so they buff everyone again which will just keep on going and going. And the only way to make all classes do the same damage is to make all classes functionally the same.

  2. #22
    Bloodsail Admiral LaserChild9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averrix View Post
    Because they don't know how to balance things. So they weaken the strong classes and screw up the weak ones even more. Plus, when they screw up the mechanics of a class/spec and say they can't really do anything about that until another expansion, you know they screwed up.
    Lol, butthurt much? How much experience do you have with balancing 36 different specs/play styles for a huge MMO with millions of players? And they cant be that bad at it, you still put your time and money into the game, along with several million other people. The facts speak for themselves.

    The classes/specs are balanced around the game not the other way around, if something is over performing it needs to be fixed otherwise it trivializes content. Its really not a hard concept to grasp.

  3. #23
    Deleted
    There's plenty of reasons design wise for this approach.
    The first one is depending on how "op" the "op" class is, and if it's op just relative to other classes or to how encounters are designed.

    I'm gonna throw some made up numbers for this examples: Let's say that Ursoc (M) is designed around having every DPS in your raid having an average of 300k DPS (in the "wrong" assumption that all classes peform at the same effectiveness in that encounter)

    So in an ideal world you have all classes doing around that number and everything is nice and jolly
    Now you can have some classes that underperform and do something like 200k DPS - That's an "easy" solution you bump up the DPS until it reaches the 300k DPS average.

    But what if you have a class that goes 350-400k DPS?
    Is it the solution to bump everyone to that value? No. Why? because then you screwed up completely your balance and design for *all* encounters, and this mean going and readjust every single HP/Damage componenet and berserker timers and enrage/soft enrage for *every boss and every trash mob* so that players don't simply go in and steamroll everything due to the new average DPS value.

    This is in the assumption that all classes perform the same, and we already know this is not true by design because devs are ok with certain classes excel in certain encounters and not so much in others, that brings another layer of difficulty in balancing.

    Nerfing also act as a negative reinforcement in what would be otherwise a system with a positive retroactive reinforcement (Where A positively influences B and B psitively influences C and C positively influences A)

    These kind of systems tend to collapse and go out of control easily as they snowball pretty hard once too much positive reinforcement has been applied in any point of the chain.

    As having all classes being completely balanced is probably not possible unless everyone has the same rotation and abilities effect the risk in buffing everyone instead of applying buff and nerfs appropriately is that at any point in time there's gonna be an OP class, and the what? if before everyone was doing 300k with the 320k outlier now we have everyone doing 320k and 340k outlier. And it could go on indefinitely.

    And this is why idea that Nerfs are "lazy" way of solving a problem is bullshit. I'm out.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollhammer View Post
    Two words. Power Creep.
    this

    it's very simple really
    if you keep buffing everything then eventually they're gonna be too strong for the environment

  5. #25
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    So instead of of making _1_ class weaker. They are to make 11 stronger, and to top it off. They also have to redo every single mob and boss in the game ?

    Hope you see for yourself why this aint happening and why the go for the easier solution
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  6. #26
    It works as along as all the "muggle classes" are sitting together which is generally not the case. Struggling classes are still struggling while the strong classes are either properly tuned with the middle of the pack or get demoted to bottom of the list from over nerfing with no attempt made mid tier to tweak the numbers.

    Power creep is the reason to not buff everyone to the top. The devs are historically known though to fail to bring players within the middle of the pack.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by enzo82 View Post
    are they being lazy? instead of destroying one class like lets say fire mages they should buff the under performing classes to reach their dps level and then everyone would be happy except for the monsters, if buffing us all results in killing monsters fast they can fix that issue by giving more HP or armor, nerfing the player and their legendary items effects the mood and happiness of the player, you might say those who say "we will quit" might return and will return to play again but after blizzard losing their customer respect over and over resulting in many players fleeing to P servers or another game

    TLR Blizzard should buff and stop nerfing.
    They even said that didn't like nerfing classes and would rather buff the weak ones at the start of Legion.
    Seems they just gave up on that though.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    They even said that didn't like nerfing classes and would rather buff the weak ones at the start of Legion.
    Seems they just gave up on that though.
    it's just not possible to do that all the time.
    The fact that they "don't like" and that "they would prefer" does not mean that it is "always" the best option.

  9. #29
    Because constantly buffing the weaker end of the spectrum is what leads to power creep, and an unbalancing of the game's intended difficulty level. Generally speaking most encounters are going to be tuned around the middle of the pack, and if all you do is buff every class that isn't top tier, you gradually nerf the intended difficulty of the game. It is much better for difficulty balance, and much less time consuming, to try and bring the outliers closer to the median.

  10. #30
    From a design standpoint the "Balanced"classes are the ones in the middle of the spectrum, and the classes sitting at the high and low ends are typically outliers that need to be reigned in. With that in mind, there will always be a top dps and a bottom dps but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get them as close in numbers to the middle of the pack as possible. It's fine if the top dps spec in the game deals 3-6% more than the bottom, what isn't fine is when it deals 9-10% more than the middle, and 15-20%+ more than the bottom.

    Balancing the game almost always requires both nerfs and buffs and each end of the spectrum, but math is complex and can interact with scaling in ways that weren't foreseen ahead of time which can lead to very slight nerfs or buffs giving momentous swings in power. For the health of the game though it needs to be done because content is balanced around the classes at the middle, not the top and by buffing everyone to be closer to the top you have to rebalance every piece of content in the game.... and then buff classes to meet the newest top performer and start the cycle all over again.

  11. #31
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    so what your saying is
    "ok fire mages are abit too strong"
    "ok so lets buff all 35 other specs"
    "ok now lets buff all the mobs in the game"
    "shit now MM hunter is too strong"
    "fuck ok lets buff all the specs then mobs again"

    3 months later a level 1 spider has 15 million hp....
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    so what your saying is
    "ok fire mages are abit too strong"
    "ok so lets buff all 35 other specs"
    "ok now lets buff all the mobs in the game"
    "shit now MM hunter is too strong"
    "fuck ok lets buff all the specs then mobs again"

    3 months later a level 1 spider has 15 million hp....
    Exactly- don't see why it is so hard to understand for so many people. We already got "a issue" with to high numbers. Next expansion will also include a stat squish..

  13. #33
    So bosses won't last 2 minutes.

  14. #34
    If they keep buffing over an over, it'll only lead to them having to tune bosses to have much larger health pools to compensate. And for pvp its a mess as is. If they kept buffing more it'll only shorten the time to kill even more, which mind you is very short as is

    nerfing overall i feel is the better course of action in regards to pvp at least, PvE is easier to tune.. Health pools like i said, but theres a bigger picture i think they take into account

  15. #35
    im just gonna leave this here.

    http://darklegacycomics.com/558

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by enzo82 View Post
    are they being lazy? instead of destroying one class like lets say fire mages they should buff the under performing classes to reach their dps level and then everyone would be happy except for the monsters, if buffing us all results in killing monsters fast they can fix that issue by giving more HP or armor, nerfing the player and their legendary items effects the mood and happiness of the player, you might say those who say "we will quit" might return and will return to play again but after blizzard losing their customer respect over and over resulting in many players fleeing to P servers or another game

    TLR Blizzard should buff and stop nerfing.
    does your butt feel like you had super hot sauce at taco bell last night?

    because you sure act like it does mr fire mage. take the nerfs and deal

    god knows the rest of us have

  17. #37
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    I think it is called balancing.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  18. #38
    Let's say you have a class performing 5-10% better than the others (and by the way ppl act, you'd assume the "top" classes are far more than that ahead). Buffing the other classes 5-10% is a huge overall boost to raid dps. It takes fights that were tight dps races and can make them significantly easier. Especially if they did this every time one class got ahead, it would make the content significantly easier relative to the same group of ppl. So without re-tuning the relevant content in the game, the "buff all other classes" idea doesn't really hold up, especially when you can simply nerf the outlier down to intended levels.
    Last edited by BananaHandsB; 2016-11-19 at 08:21 PM.

  19. #39
    There aren't supposed to be strong classes. There are supposed to be middle-of-the-road classes. That's why the strongest classes get nerfed and the weakest get buffed.

    This isn't necessarily "fun" design, but it's necessary for game balance.

    You have absolutely no reason to be complaining, especially at such an early stage of the PTR.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Morssoe View Post
    This is just getting stupid. Why in the world does nerfs/buffs even matter to you?
    Nobody cares until it's their class. That's why this 'novel' thread comes back so readily.

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