Hunter 7.1.5 'The goal is to avoid upending how you play the spec.'

[Arkhes]

I really enjoyed this ability combined with the old patient sniper.
You could actually shine by positioning yourself. (not only by doing the perfect rotation)

I.E. cleave all 5 blobs and helya with barrage/markedshot, cleave spiders on elerethe while dpsing the boss, time your markedshot procc for mindcrontrol pahse on nythendra, etc.

Hunter finaly had some depth. We weren't the most retarded class anymore. You had to figure out your mechanics to min/max your dps.
Siderwinders with patiernt sniper was a great design, it gave us ou own niche. We finally weren't just another ranged dps.

Maybe we're just the odd ones out, but I feel like your above point is not mentioned enough. I am enjoying the positioning aspect of playing a hunter; maximising dps is not just perfecting a rotation but making sure you stand in the right spot to everything with sidewinders (or positioning so you don't hit everything). People complain that a marksman wouldn't hit everything in the room, but the ability is just a tool. I'm the marksman, and I'll control where and what it hits (unless it hits something higher up in the sky, then screw that). Fix that topwinders and I'm fine.

My main concern going forward is not just numbers, but retaining this control in playstyle. So I'd very much prefer retaining sidewinders in it's current form. Like some others have mentioned, make it baseline for MM. When I heard all the interviews about 7.1.5, this was actually what I was hoping for, that Sidewinders and Patient Sniper become baseline. Then we would finally be allowed to use other interesting talents like Trickshot. To improve ST just replace the PS talent with something like "Aimed Shot crits increase the Vulnerability debuff by 1s." I would also very much like to see something like: Calm Aim (passive) - Aimed Shot is castable while moving, but if you move it does X% less damage (or the reverse, where not moving increases damage). These are all simple but (in my opinion) elegant changes that will not upend the spec but improve its capabilities and flexibility.

[Kissthebaby]

No one even noticed or is talking about the fact that the new patient sniper talent doesn't increase our max focus by 30 anymore so its a 120 focus pool again..

[randomasiandude]

The easiest thing they could do is to just remove the Vulnerable mechanic from marksmanship.

[Avikur]

The easiest thing they could do is to just remove the Vulnerable mechanic from marksmanship.

THIS.

Such a pointless mechanic, just remove it and let marked shot have a % chance to proc from aimed shot or auto attacks or something, the whole vulnerable and hunters mark mechanics are pointless, they don't add anything to the spec.

[DeicideUH]

Maybe we're just the odd ones out, but I feel like your above point is not mentioned enough. I am enjoying the positioning aspect of playing a hunter; maximising dps is not just perfecting a rotation but making sure you stand in the right spot to everything with sidewinders (or positioning so you don't hit everything). People complain that a marksman wouldn't hit everything in the room, but the ability is just a tool. I'm the marksman, and I'll control where and what it hits (unless it hits something higher up in the sky, then screw that). Fix that topwinders and I'm fine.

My main concern going forward is not just numbers, but retaining this control in playstyle. So I'd very much prefer retaining sidewinders in it's current form. Like some others have mentioned, make it baseline for MM. When I heard all the interviews about 7.1.5, this was actually what I was hoping for, that Sidewinders and Patient Sniper become baseline. Then we would finally be allowed to use other interesting talents like Trickshot. To improve ST just replace the PS talent with something like "Aimed Shot crits increase the Vulnerability debuff by 1s." I would also very much like to see something like: Calm Aim (passive) - Aimed Shot is castable while moving, but if you move it does X% less damage (or the reverse, where not moving increases damage). These are all simple but (in my opinion) elegant changes that will not upend the spec but improve its capabilities and flexibility.

But... Sidewinders is not going away. You can still cleave like hell with Sidewinders and Barrage. What's being nerfed is Sidewinder applying Vulnerable, which is actually a nerf on Single Target. However, since it will just make your Single Target damage equal to non-sidewinders, Blizzard can more easily now buff Aimed Shot to compensate.

And they wouldn't make Sidewinders baseline. Because nothing screams less "archer" than shooting magical snakes that fly non-straight. That's like making a Fire Mage's main attack frost-based because it's the best talent.

[threads]

But... Sidewinders is not going away. You can still cleave like hell with Sidewinders and Barrage. What's being nerfed is Sidewinder applying Vulnerable, which is actually a nerf on Single Target. However, since it will just make your Single Target damage equal to non-sidewinders, Blizzard can more easily now buff Aimed Shot to compensate.

wtf? SW is destroyed on ptr because it doesn't apply vulnerable anymore. that means all your marked procs from SW aren't going to be buffed and won't hit for shit.

[DeicideUH]

wtf? SW is destroyed on ptr because it doesn't apply vulnerable anymore. that means all your marked procs from SW aren't going to be buffed and won't hit for shit.

Tuning pass still coming. I do expect them to buff our basic shots.

[Deleted]

THIS.

Such a pointless mechanic, just remove it and let marked shot have a % chance to proc from aimed shot or auto attacks or something, the whole vulnerable and hunters mark mechanics are pointless, they don't add anything to the spec.

Vulnerable is probably the one thing keeping the spec from being completely braindead. Removing it would remove a lot of depth to it. And yes, I'm not saying it is super complicated to grasp at the moment, but getting rid of it would just make the spec laughably easy to play in its current (live) state.

[Deleted]

If they really wanna fix the "OP cleave" problem (which I don't see such a problem with) they should make Arcane Shot just a single target version of the live Sidewinders.

By making Arcane Shot provide 50 focus, have a 12s recharge time with 2 charges and applying vulnerable, our single target rotation would stay essentially the same as it is on live. (This should be paired with the already implemented single target buffs, since with the cleave gone and little to none raid utility, there's no reason for us to be in the lower end of the charts on single target.)

The PTR version feels horrible to play because you sort of want to shoot your second MS within your first vulnerable window to benefit from the extra damage, but in doing so are left with 0 focus to the renewed vulnerable window having to spam AS again to fill up focus and essentially turning the rotation into a clunky mess.

[Arkhes]

But... Sidewinders is not going away. You can still cleave like hell with Sidewinders and Barrage. What's being nerfed is Sidewinder applying Vulnerable, which is actually a nerf on Single Target. However, since it will just make your Single Target damage equal to non-sidewinders, Blizzard can more easily now buff Aimed Shot to compensate.

And they wouldn't make Sidewinders baseline. Because nothing screams less "archer" than shooting magical snakes that fly non-straight. That's like making a Fire Mage's main attack frost-based because it's the best talent.

It's going away in it's current form. It not applying Vulnerability is not just a nerf to Single Target, but to AoE as well since Marked Shot is also nerfed. There's little reason to take it if the 7.1.5 goes live.

If Blizz agrees with your sentiment that Sidewinders is not 'archer' enough, they would not have put it as a talent in the first place. Whether we feel it fits the theme is not that relevant since it's entirely subjective. I for one am totally fine with using Sidewinders. I see it as sending out devices that curve and spread to mark and highlight targets to focus down. If I didn't read the tooltip, I wouldn't even have noticed they were snakes.

[Kissthebaby]

Tuning pass still coming. I do expect them to buff our basic shots.

Who cares about that shit you do realize they are just completely going to re design how we play the spec and it hasn't even been a full tier yet. We already had to learn a completely new spec and now 2 months later we have to do it again, a whole new play style because instead of buffing other talents they just destroyed the good ones. Patient sniper is completely new and different. Sidewinders gives 15 less focus and no more vulnerable so it's just a useless talent that gives even less focus, they r basically giving that talent the hellfire survival hunter treatment, meaning breaking it so much no one plays it. So they want us to spam arcane shot for focus. Patient sniper doesnt give us 30 more focus for our rescource pool. Marked shot is basically just move to put a debuff. Barrage which was already in the most balance talent row is just going to get destroyed and will never really be picked unless it's constant aoe, the barrage nerf just shows how clueless they are, just nerfing a talent that was already nerfed and not the best talent for situations.

They have no fucking idea what they are doing with the class and no one fucking cares. They are just going to make us play a whole new play style when everyone is just getting the hang of the current one. Who cares about fucking tuning numbers if the spec feels like shit. Survival is a dumpster fire. BM is shit, they just have no fucking clue what direction they are going in . And because current mm had sick cleave with average single target. The high numbers on pad fights and cookie cutter build everyone uses just puts in their head that they need to dismantle the play style and nerf every cookie cutter talent.

But they still need to tune the abilites. Fuck that shit, just reading the patch notes and getting on ptr you know what they are trying to do. The class is becoming a joke, the whole redesign of the class for legion has been a joke. It's not fucking good. That's not an opinion. The class is not fucking good.

Yeah I'm mad, I don't mean to take it out on you specifically but fuck this stupid change for the sake of change. This fucking drastic of talent changes just shows and proves how clueless and how little they didn't test or listen to feedback during beta. The class is a dumpster .

[Deleted]

Who cares about that shit you do realize they are just completely going to re design how we play the spec and it hasn't even been a full tier yet. We already had to learn a completely new spec and now 2 months later we have to do it again, a whole new play style because instead of buffing other talents they just destroyed the good ones. Patient sniper is completely new and different. Sidewinders gives 15 less focus and no more vulnerable so it's just a useless talent that gives even less focus, they r basically giving that talent the hellfire survival hunter treatment, meaning breaking it so much no one plays it. So they want us to spam arcane shot for focus. Patient sniper doesnt give us 30 more focus for our rescource pool. Marked shot is basically just move to put a debuff. Barrage which was already in the most balance talent row is just going to get destroyed and will never really be picked unless it's constant aoe, the barrage nerf just shows how clueless they are, just nerfing a talent that was already nerfed and not the best talent for situations.

They have no fucking idea what they are doing with the class and no one fucking cares. They are just going to make us play a whole new play style when everyone is just getting the hang of the current one. Who cares about fucking tuning numbers if the spec feels like shit. Survival is a dumpster fire. BM is shit, they just have no fucking clue what direction they are going in . And because current mm had sick cleave with average single target. The high numbers on pad fights and cookie cutter build everyone uses just puts in their head that they need to dismantle the play style and nerf every cookie cutter talent.

But they still need to tune the abilites. Fuck that shit, just reading the patch notes and getting on ptr you know what they are trying to do. The class is becoming a joke, the whole redesign of the class for legion has been a joke. It's not fucking good. That's not an opinion. The class is not fucking good.

Yeah I'm mad, I don't mean to take it out on you specifically but fuck this stupid change for the sake of change. This fucking drastic of talent changes just shows and proves how clueless and how little they didn't test or listen to feedback during beta. The class is a dumpster .

If you take more than a few days to adapt to spec changes, then.... Nvm.

They are not changing the entire playstyle, they are just HOPEFULLY, making the horrible design that is sidewinders and barrage less attractive. Skills that risk pulling half a room are not good design for a game with this much group content. There is no discussion there.

You're seriously being a way over the top drama queen about this, nothing has been finalized and frankfully, hunters are quite ... bareboned atm, any changes would be welcome imo. Not even sure why they felt the need to change them, they were just fine in WoD, but they changed everything else so I guess hunters had to as well.

[Deleted]

that sounds fun for like 10 sec until you realize you can't just go stand in africa all the time.

well some ppl live in africa and the dmg will be too low, so you have a point too

[randomasiandude]

Vulnerable is probably the one thing keeping the spec from being completely braindead. Removing it would remove a lot of depth to it. And yes, I'm not saying it is super complicated to grasp at the moment, but getting rid of it would just make the spec laughably easy to play in its current (live) state.

I agree that it would be easy to play, but if I had to choose between it being a braindead spec, or a spec that relies on the luck of the draw I'd choose braindead, but that's just me.

[Rekuja]

u guys actually like SW? god... i think it's a horrible ability.

Wish they revamped how Vulnerable works, I'd take Piercing Shot over SW any day, shooting a bunch of snakes from my bow? gtfo... unfortunately with how vulnerable works in live right now, not taking SW really gimps you.

[Arkhes]

If you take more than a few days to adapt to spec changes, then.... Nvm.

They are not changing the entire playstyle, they are just HOPEFULLY, making the horrible design that is sidewinders and barrage less attractive. Skills that risk pulling half a room are not good design for a game with this much group content. There is no discussion there.

You're seriously being a way over the top drama queen about this, nothing has been finalized and frankfully, hunters are quite ... bareboned atm, any changes would be welcome imo. Not even sure why they felt the need to change them, they were just fine in WoD, but they changed everything else so I guess hunters had to as well.

That's unfair to say. I do think that if you want to play at a higher level, it does take time to get used to the spec; not just the rotation but getting into the correct mindset that the rotation requires, knowing the little intricacies, or even muscle memory and reaction time. Part of it is also knowing precisely how much burst you can deal and how often etc.

I think proper positioning to not pull anything is good design. It allows a certain depth to the play-style. If you have not adapted to it by now and still pull stuff, then... Nvm. Furthermore, if they do change it to not pull the entire room, we lose an advantage we currently have. Hunters helping tanks pull in Mythic+ is a very valid and prominent strategy to quick clearing.

Blizz IS changing the entire play-style if the patch notes is anything to go by, and that is what he is worried about. I don't see how you can say they are not. I too am frankly worried about the potential change in play-style. I chose the hunter as my main based on the play-style on live. Some may not like it, but I chose based on it's current iteration, and he and I have a reason to be upset (he could tone down the frustration though lol) if Blizz is going to change the play-style, which looks like it might be the case.

[DeicideUH]

u guys actually like SW? god... i think it's a horrible ability.

Most of those who like SW are just interested in DPS meters. They don't care if we waste entire talents rows, or if shooting snakes makes no sense, all they want is their incredible spread cleave damage intact. And even complain that it needs more single target damage!

[Ninjeff]

Why did Blizzard get rid of our on the move focus regen shots? I thought those were fine and made it feel like we controlled our focus generation more so we had enough focus to use big shots while not focus capping. Was something to pay attention to during the rotation and felt much better than the spam everything off cd and then wait rotations we have now. If anything just balance the old focus regen shots with our base focus generation so we dont fully depend on them, but can use them to smooth out the rotation and control our own focus generation.

And ya, WHY THE FUK ARE THEY DOING THIS TO MM ??? IT IS NOT NECESSARY AT ALL. Strong on 2/7 fights in EN and 1/3 fights in ToV is not reason enough for these changes. Think about this Blizzard and do the right thing and REVERT THESE HORRIBLE CHANGES. Thank you.

[threads]

u guys actually like SW? god... i think it's a horrible ability.

Wish they revamped how Vulnerable works, I'd take Piercing Shot over SW any day, shooting a bunch of snakes from my bow? gtfo... unfortunately with how vulnerable works in live right now, not taking SW really gimps you.

piercing shot feels terrible atm cause it destroys your focus and arcane is a dogshit generator

Most of those who like SW are just interested in DPS meters. They don't care if we waste entire talents rows, or if shooting snakes makes no sense, all they want is their incredible spread cleave damage intact. And even complain that it needs more single target damage!

it's not even about cleave, that's just an added bonus. SW is just a less annoying generator. it gives more focus and applies vulnerable.

like do you people even play MM on live?

[DeicideUH]

it's not even about cleave, that's just an added bonus. SW is just a less annoying generator. it gives more focus and applies vulnerable.

like do you people even play MM on live?

I play it, but I dislike it a lot. I've played MM since I started playing, in Cataclysm.

Legion MM doesn't feel like an archer, an sniper or an evolution of MM.

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Edit: And I'll say more: Those that say Arcane Shot needs to be spammed really haven't played with Arcane Shot for a long time. I do play without Sidewinders, and if not for Piercing Shot requiring a lot of focus every 30 seconds, I could keep up my rotation by just weaving one Arcane Shot after an Aimed Shot. You rarelly need to cast two or three Arcane shots in a row, and most often only do it because of Piercing Shot.

Natural Focus regeneration is pretty strong in this expansion.