[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[Prometheous]

Well I can now say that people are being a bunch of crying babies about the changes because I don't even notice the changes. I am geared however so my experience will be different as I actually have a lot of haste. Just get used to it if you have to, its not a big deal in the slightest.

Seconded; 886 With 19% haste, hardly noticed a change from live to PTR.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

i havnt played ptr yet arnt our strongest dps talents changed? like fury of air now being viable, are we able to maintain it with the boulderfist and frostbrand nerfs? or will it be easier to keep it up with hot hands and the wind builder talent? i imagine i will probs be using hot hands if the buff to the wrist legendary goes through, or would that still be behind boulderfist?

[Deleted]

Seconded; 886 With 19% haste, hardly noticed a change from live to PTR.

Is that with or without Fury of Air? I have nice haste levels too, so I wonder if you tried that along with BF and HS.

[Prometheous]

Is that with or without Fury of Air? I have nice haste levels too, so I wonder if you tried that along with BF and HS.

Same build as live, as it will be the same build we'll be using. So, without.

[Deleted]

There's been talks about FoA being a worthwhile option, at least for aoe.

[Darleth]

Same build as live, as it will be the same build we'll be using. So, without.

At least for the moment. Keep in mind that it is still the first ptr patch. It could still change a lot during the next few days/weeks.

[Imnick]

Current testing implies we'd actually be using FoA even on single target, although yeah again there are definitely going to be more changes coming.

[Darleth]

Current testing implies we'd actually be using FoA even on single target, although yeah again there are definitely going to be more changes coming.

Was playing around with the changes today and just asking this:

Whats the actual plan IF we have to play with FoA? In my testing I had pretty high MP-issues, with around 19% Haste, 76% Mastery and this setup. Trinkets were SA (870) and BTI (865). Personally speaking: I had more problems keeping up with MP with FoA than I had with the standard current build. I also had overall 30k damage more with the standard build, and almost no real problems keeping up my buffs and having enough MP, while feeling extremely starved with FoA.

I cant see myself playing with Tempest and FoA, thats why I choose Empowered Stormlash. But whats the plan for any other talent? FoA dumps MP harder than anything, so everything that adds extra MP costs falls out pretty quickly. Had almost NO chance to dump MP with anything else besides Stormstrike, Frostbrand recasting and Crash Lightning after Feral Spirits and even CL only got casted 3 or 4 times during my testing, to get the AoE up on wolves. Lava Lash basically became completely useless and I could've thrown it off my bar. Thats the result of my short testing phase with FoA.

Its strong, but god... the MP starvation feels way too bad for me personally.

[Prometheous]

Whats the actual plan IF we have to play with FoA? In my testing I had pretty high MP-issues, with around 19% Haste, 76% Mastery and this setup.

Lots of people don't seem to realize how little room you have to spend maelstrom with that build.

I don't know why people are calling for a change like this anyway, the spec plays fine now and only needs slight adjustments (Not even sure why we need nerfs, we're no where near as good as most other melee right now, and being forced into a worse build is only going to widen that gap.) I hope blizzard realizes that the vocal minority only are calling for changes for the sake of changes, not because we actually need them.

[Darleth]

Lots of people don't seem to realize how little room you have to spend maelstrom with that build.

I don't know why people are calling for a change like this anyway, the spec plays fine now and only needs slight adjustments (Not even sure why we need nerfs, we're no where near as good as most other melee right now, and being forced into a worse build is only going to widen that gap.) I hope blizzard realizes that the vocal minority only are calling for changes for the sake of changes, not because we actually need them.

Yeah, pretty sure I dont know how to play the spec
My main problem currently is, as soon as I proc Stormbringer, I either have to wait for MP to generate via WF/AA/BF or just press it and then not dropping LOW enough so I might screw myself over on FoA. Not including rebuffing FT.

Also, nobody was asking for those changes, you're correct. Its more like blizzard is going the way they wanted to have certain builds (BF being a lot slower mainly).
I personally only wanted to have some of the weaker talents more in line with what we're currently using so that we actually HAVE some choices if we wanted to try out another build without losing too much and making things like Feral Lunge baseline.

[Imnick]

We don't need nerfs or buffs, performance wise we are in a good place.
On live though we literally only have one talent build.

That is Enhancement's biggest problem and what Blizzard are setting out to solve in this patch.

They aren't trying to make us weaker or just force us into a different single talent build, this was just the first pass of changes.

[nazrakin]

Personally, I just dont like the idea of consistently using AE skills for single target gains. Theyve buffed LL so that we may end up favoring it to CrL... but it ends up not mattering because we'll probably be using FoA anyway. They should probably up FoA's malestrom cost to 10 per second, but then have it reduced by 50% if the CL buff is up.

[Darleth]

Personally, I just dont like the idea of consistently using AE skills for single target gains. Theyve buffed LL so that we may end up favoring it to CrL... but it ends up not mattering because we'll probably be using FoA anyway. They should probably up FoA's malestrom cost to 10 per second, but then have it reduced by 50% if the CL buff is up.

I think I've said something similar in another thread, just in regards to the current BF build that is still playable on the PTR. In that case, we still dont want to use a lot more LL's because of FBs 35 MP. In FoA's case (and whatever we're going to pick in our L15 row) we still wont be able to use it that much, because were getting drained pretty heavily. I cant see FoA working without switching to Hot Hands or Windsong and I personally would be pretty sad to switch to a Rockbiter build. I absolutely despise hammering one button the whole time to gain ressources and that'll make me feel like I'm playing a Rogue or Fury Warrior; if I would want to play like that, I would've just rolled one of said classes.

[Prometheous]

I think I've said something similar in another thread, just in regards to the current BF build that is still playable on the PTR. In that case, we still dont want to use a lot more LL's because of FBs 35 MP. In FoA's case (and whatever we're going to pick in our L15 row) we still wont be able to use it that much, because were getting drained pretty heavily. I cant see FoA working without switching to Hot Hands or Windsong and I personally would be pretty sad to switch to a Rockbiter build. I absolutely despise hammering one button the whole time to gain ressources and that'll make me feel like I'm playing a Rogue or Fury Warrior; if I would want to play like that, I would've just rolled one of said classes.

Unfortunately, the "pray for procs to play your spec" thing is legions design standpoint. It makes the classes more accessible because the only thing you need is gear and good luck.

I'll most likely reroll if we're forced into that play style, but it seems like they're just ruining most specs. I really wish they'd take a moment and stop homogenizing all classes into this "RNG or bust" mindset that more than half of the spec's have. This is the same issue Ret paladin suffered from for so long, you boiled down into a pink slot machine and it appears they've not learned a single thing in 12 years.

[Deleted]

(Not even sure why we need nerfs, we're no where near as good as most other melee right now, and being forced into a worse build is only going to widen that gap.)

Unfortunately for your opinion in reality Enhancement is very strong right now, basically the strongest sustained ST class bar a cheesing shadow priest. Don't know where you get the impression otherwise.


In terms of buffs and nerfs, it's more of a question of accepting that Blizzard considered our crappy AoE as a drawback for our powerful ST. But obviosuly that isn't a thing going from the notes.

[wordup]

Lots of people don't seem to realize how little room you have to spend maelstrom with that build.

I don't know why people are calling for a change like this anyway, the spec plays fine now and only needs slight adjustments (Not even sure why we need nerfs, we're no where near as good as most other melee right now, and being forced into a worse build is only going to widen that gap.) I hope blizzard realizes that the vocal minority only are calling for changes for the sake of changes, not because we actually need them.

Are we playing the same game?

Enhancement is extremely good right now, in the higher bracket of melee with a couple of other specs. The changes on PTR is arguably a net buff bringing up the value of other talents at a relatively tame set of nerfs.

When it comes to builds, even the most starved possible (Boulderfist/Hailstorm/Tempest/Fury of Air/Earthen Spike) can be pulled off if you manage your resource properly. If you go into the PTR and play it like you do on live, you will perform sub-optimally with the current standard build simply because it has changed. The likely candidate (assuming you are unable to efficiently manage) to be dropped in the build would be Boulderfist in favor of either of the other two options dependant on your gear/fight archetype so you can sustain FoA, Tempest and Hailstorm are too valuable to drop from the rotation, and obviously still Landslide. FoA is roughly equivalent to the power level of Hailstorm except it scales up linearly in AoE making it extremely powerful and finding a way to fit it into a build is pretty important with current PTR numbers.

[Prometheous]

Are we playing the same game?

Enhancement is extremely good right now, in the higher bracket of melee with a couple of other specs. The changes on PTR is arguably a net buff bringing up the value of other talents at a relatively tame set of nerfs.

Are we?

Outside of the few lucky RNG parses with bis legendaries, Enhancement is well behind rogues/warriors/paladins on pure single target (Guarm) and even on our arguably best fight (cenarius) they're keeping up and stay within 2-3% on average. So in most scenarios they're just as good and in others they're far ahead. Checking all progression kills from ToV; Not a single Enh was brought in (an ELE shaman has been even) yet all other melee specs have.

That really doesn't make us "extremely good", especially when all we bring is damage, and we're still not even the best at that.

[wordup]

Are we?

Outside of the few lucky RNG parses with bis legendaries, Enhancement is well behind rogues/warriors/paladins on pure single target (Guarm) and even on our arguably best fight (cenarius) they're keeping up and stay within 2-3% on average. So in most scenarios they're just as good and in others they're far ahead. Checking all progression kills from ToV; Not a single Enh was brought in (an ELE shaman has been even) yet all other melee specs have.

That really doesn't make us "extremely good", especially when all we bring is damage, and we're still not even the best at that.

Did you actually check the progression kills for ToV? Method used an Enhancement Shaman in every single boss, they even used two on Guarm (the boss you used as an example), Serenity also brought one for all 3. Looking at logs instead of actual raw kills is silly, because the majority of higher end optimised guilds are still keeping their logs private for their own reasons.

The only class you listed there that I think is consistently better is Paladins. You also diluted our damage down to "lucky RNG parses with bis legendaries", which is simply not true. We do well without RNG, and excellent with RNG on our side, comparing to Warriors who you listed there, they do horrendously with bad RNG, and excellent with RNG. That kind of swing makes for a pretty bad investment. What you're saying is simply incorrect and, sounds like it's coming from an anecdotal place rather than a factual one.

[Prometheous]

Looking at logs instead of actual raw kills is silly, because the majority of higher end optimised guilds are still keeping their logs private for their own reasons.

The only class you listed there that I think is consistently better is Paladins.

I think you ignored my point, we bring nothing but damage while most other melee do as much as we do unless we're lucky and they bring other utility.

[Imnick]

Hes not ignoring you, you are moving the goalposts. That wasn't what you were originally trying to argue at all.
I know some people really really want their class to be bad but it's simply not true, Enhancement is in a very good place this expansion.

It wasn't even the main thrust of the post he was replying to. You spent one sentence passingly mentioning utility and a whole paragraph about how our dps could be better.
He fact checked the only statistic you actually brought up and proved that you pulled it out of your ass, and now you are pretending that "that wasn't my point".
This transparent evasion isn't flattering.