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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    >ignores the existence of constructive criticism.
    Blizzard objectively has a bad record with this sort of stuff.

    Yes, there's a ton of hyperbole, but some of the worries are justified by things Blizzard has done in the past when people didn't complain enough.

  2. #302
    Fire (with Pyro Bracers) is one of the best specs for everything, even in ToV. If 7.1.5 PTR changes reach live, Fire is going to be garbage on everything aside from AoE.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Senistian View Post
    pfft, just roll a shadow priest.
    Believe it or not, getting hit a lot harder than Fire is. A lot harder.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by dnasty View Post
    Believe it or not, getting hit a lot harder than Fire is. A lot harder.
    I highly doubt it got hit 'a lot' harder than Fire, that's pretty difficult.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    GTFO, how many times did you hear this? How many times they said that they won't have content draughts? Etc-etc.
    "relax it's just alpha"
    "oh come on, it's in beta, the launch will be OK"
    "oh okay, let's wait til 7.1"
    "don't worry about 7.1.5 PTR, the patch notes are far from final"

    hm?
    I agree with this completely, however this does not mean that fire is going to be bad. It just means that some specs are gonna go live op untouched, and some which are weak are gonna stay weak. You can never predict which is it going to be.

  6. #306
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnasty View Post
    Believe it or not, getting hit a lot harder than Fire is. A lot harder.
    Even if it is getting hit a lot harder, most of the people in this thread will not and do not care. We can't be held responsible for other classes' issues, nor can we be expected to tone down our discourse because other classes feel we get too much already.

    The responsibility of Mages is to get the best possible outcome for Mages from the devs. Nothing else.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumstein View Post
    Here's the thing:
    Sure, it's only half (if even) the changes that there will be total.
    But honestly, what the hell is the point in putting only half the changes in the PTR at this stage? Tweaks to come sure, but skill reworks that are dependent on other skill reworks yet to come? If you destroy half the skills, and add another half to compensate, but you only allow people to test the destroyed ones and not give any word as to what the compensation is, you really think people aren't going to be pissed off?

    There is no point putting half the changes (minus balancing number tweaks) into the PTR at a time. Save them up and do them all at once, so that they can be looked at together rather than in a vacuum. Until then, we can only test what they have given us, and tell them that it plays like shit.
    To be fair, fire doesn't play like shit on the PTR. As has been mentioned the 3 charge fast recharge fire blast makes it very smooth and helps to compensate for lack of ice floes while moving. It actually plays quite smoothly, it's just that the numbers are shit at the moment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lateralsx5 View Post
    Given that rogues are (or are supposed to be) single target specialists, you can't seriously complain that fire mages which excel at AOE should be as good as a rogue in ST? 10 ilvl difference doesn't mean you are entitled to be performing great at everything.
    I hear rogues are quite capable of outputting good aoe too....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biowned View Post
    Fire (with Pyro Bracers) is one of the best specs for everything, even in ToV. If 7.1.5 PTR changes reach live, Fire is going to be garbage on everything aside from AoE.
    Any damage spec with their bis damage legendaries is one of the best specs for anything when compared to people that lack legendaries. Frost DKs with belt and bracers piss on fire mages for singletarget even if they have bracers. Spriests with belt and shoulders piss all over firemages for singletarget as well, regardless of the mages' legendaries status.

    That doesn't even account for the fact that the vast majority don't have their bis legendary. The specs should be balanced around their baseline (without legendaries) and then the legendaries should be balanced based on that. It's not fun nor good to have an un-farmable legendary be the determining factor in whether or not you can perform well relative to your peers.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Adudu View Post

    I hear rogues are quite capable of outputting good aoe too....
    True, assass with poison build can do monster aoe even if it's dependant from rng of poison bomb procs, outlaw with blade flurry doesn't even need further explanations and subt can do good aoe too even if it requires more effort
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  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTrouble View Post
    Well thats because we are FUN! Not cause we are doing great dmg. Look at current ToV and nightmare logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/12
    Fire is only ever topping any meter if the fight is based on short AoE phases.

    What blizz should do? They should not listen to all the q.q mages doing too much dmg when 10 adds stack up to a boss in my mythic dungeon q.q

    I know, balance is a hard thing to achieve, but fire mages are the best example of a class getting played because its FUN to play even though NOT doing top DPS (as I said, except for burst AoE). We were the lucky ones and got some great new mechanics this addon, thats why there are so many mages.
    We can't look at mythic logs as of yet for ToV. I would rather not look at Heroic due to multiple different variables. EN mythic, Fire mages do well on the majority of fights. The other classes that are so consistent with them are getting changes as well.

    Now this is going to be the ball shattering part of why fire needs a nerf. [B]Mythic+[B]is where fire mages shine, you want a fire mage in a mythic+ group, They are almost to the point of being mandatory if doing higher end mythic+.

    Now the nerfs they are getting seem more of a 'nerf one thing, buff another after we figure out what was to powerful'.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Even if it is getting hit a lot harder, most of the people in this thread will not and do not care. We can't be held responsible for other classes' issues, nor can we be expected to tone down our discourse because other classes feel we get too much already.

    The responsibility of Mages is to get the best possible outcome for Mages from the devs. Nothing else.
    Mages responsibility is to have fun. They have no responsibility to balance the game, they can help out with giving advice or talking out about it but that is not responsibility.

    Now I used the keyword, Balance. All mages are a part of the community, the WoW community needs balance for a proper functioning game. That would mean if you felt responsibility, it should be for all classes and not have a selfish mindset.

    Lets talk about the word fun as this is your only responsibility. Fun is a very subjective word, so your version of fun might be different then another mages version. Now if only mages are having fun then why would anyone else play ? you would then have only mages playing and wouldn't be able to do any content.

    This then goes into the factor that mages should care about other classes balance because without it, this game should just rename itself "World of Potter". You may as well play a different game if that is what you are aiming for.

    So to have the "best possible outcome for mages from the devs" you are going to need to start caring about other classes. I am not saying change your discourse but maybe look at it from the other side of the fence. They are not saying to stop voicing your opinion but to remember that other classes are way worse then mages and that these changes are needed to create proper game play.


    ORRR you can just ask for blizzard to make you super saiyan god 4 and you can just one shot all the bosses.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbadubba View Post

    Mages responsibility is to have fun. They have no responsibility to balance the game, they can help out with giving advice or talking out about it but that is not responsibility.

    Now I used the keyword, Balance. All mages are a part of the community, the WoW community needs balance for a proper functioning game. That would mean if you felt responsibility, it should be for all classes and not have a selfish mindset.

    Lets talk about the word fun as this is your only responsibility. Fun is a very subjective word, so your version of fun might be different then another mages version. Now if only mages are having fun then why would anyone else play ? you would then have only mages playing and wouldn't be able to do any content.

    This then goes into the factor that mages should care about other classes balance because without it, this game should just rename itself "World of Potter". You may as well play a different game if that is what you are aiming for.

    So to have the "best possible outcome for mages from the devs" you are going to need to start caring about other classes. I am not saying change your discourse but maybe look at it from the other side of the fence. They are not saying to stop voicing your opinion but to remember that other classes are way worse then mages and that these changes are needed to create proper game play.


    ORRR you can just ask for blizzard to make you super saiyan god 4 and you can just one shot all the bosses.
    After the past few days, I am convinced a sizeable proportion of posters on these forums want a sizeable mage nerf because we have, in their minds, become a scapegoat. The chosen ones, the golden class.

    Every nerf for us therefore becomes karmic retribution because of our supposed dominance. Every buff proof of developer favoritism.

    We try and discuss issues, our fourms are invaded by those who accuse of seeking to become overpowered, people who are clearly lobbying for buffs to their own class. If they can't have their buffs, then they want us nerfed for no other reason than to satisfy that need for a scapegoat

    I believe 'Fire Mages are OP' is a myth perpetuated by other players who don't want to accept that we are just well designed and that we have weaknesses too.

    Yet we are treated as a class apart...it's hard to empathise with others when they are baying for you to be nerfed.

    That is why I don't care. Blizzard will probably balance as you describe, but all I care about it is that we end up in a good place. Because only Mages will look out for Mages now.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    >ignores the existence of constructive criticism.
    Wow sick green arrow meme though

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    After the past few days, I am convinced a sizeable proportion of posters on these forums want a sizeable mage nerf because we have, in their minds, become a scapegoat. The chosen ones, the golden class.

    Every nerf for us therefore becomes karmic retribution because of our supposed dominance. Every buff proof of developer favoritism.

    We try and discuss issues, our fourms are invaded by those who accuse of seeking to become overpowered, people who are clearly lobbying for buffs to their own class. If they can't have their buffs, then they want us nerfed for no other reason than to satisfy that need for a scapegoat

    I believe 'Fire Mages are OP' is a myth perpetuated by other players who don't want to accept that we are just well designed and that we have weaknesses too.

    Yet we are treated as a class apart...it's hard to empathise with others when they are baying for you to be nerfed.

    That is why I don't care. Blizzard will probably balance as you describe, but all I care about it is that we end up in a good place. Because only Mages will look out for Mages now.
    I will look out for mages, my best friend plays a mage and my guild runs 3 mages. I don't want them being useless. So I am a player who doesn't play a mage who doesn't want them to be useless.

    You need to remember that these forums are going to have a bunch of trolls. The only reason your forums are invaded is because they hit the front page.

    Mages do need a nerf but I think they need a nerf to the amount that they bring to a mythic+. I am actually against the number nerf outside of the legendaries. I do think the mixture of their damage and utility has them at a very strong spot at this time.

    They are the most appealing class in mythic+.

    So it is not a scapegoat for other classes that are not getting buffs, it is the fact that if you don't have a mage in a group of 5 people can hinder your experience due to the amount that mages bring to a group.

    So now that I got the "they are to versatile", I am going to shed some light on the damage nerf they will get.

    I used to main a mage for 3 expansions, fire gets nerfed halfway through the expansion every time. I don't understand why people need to get all up in the air about the nerfs as it has become so obvious why it happens. Fire mages have always scaled oddly which if they didn't get a nerf they would become gods at the end of the expansion.

    So between how much mages have and the fact that fire has always been notorious with scaling, I am pro nerf if blizzard does it properly.

    To note, a title "Fire Completely Wrecked" is going to be a shit show and if you are trying to defend the mage community, don't make these posts the ones that become popular. 7.1 Fire discussion would have been a title that would invite less troll, that is the one you should be posting on and promoting. This one is basically asking to be targeted.

  13. #313
    Honestly i give sh*t to m+, i'm interested in hc/myth raiding and it hurts my ass when i put so much effort in playing properly and doing all that micro management and get crushed by assass rogue who's idle without pressing any button 40% of the time (sim an assa rogue in simcraft and check yourself) or some random class that pushes buttons when they light up like some sort of whack-a-mole game
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  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbadubba View Post
    I will look out for mages, my best friend plays a mage and my guild runs 3 mages. I don't want them being useless. So I am a player who doesn't play a mage who doesn't want them to be useless.

    You need to remember that these forums are going to have a bunch of trolls. The only reason your forums are invaded is because they hit the front page.

    Mages do need a nerf but I think they need a nerf to the amount that they bring to a mythic+. I am actually against the number nerf outside of the legendaries. I do think the mixture of their damage and utility has them at a very strong spot at this time.

    They are the most appealing class in mythic+.

    So it is not a scapegoat for other classes that are not getting buffs, it is the fact that if you don't have a mage in a group of 5 people can hinder your experience due to the amount that mages bring to a group.

    So now that I got the "they are to versatile", I am going to shed some light on the damage nerf they will get.

    I used to main a mage for 3 expansions, fire gets nerfed halfway through the expansion every time. I don't understand why people need to get all up in the air about the nerfs as it has become so obvious why it happens. Fire mages have always scaled oddly which if they didn't get a nerf they would become gods at the end of the expansion.

    So between how much mages have and the fact that fire has always been notorious with scaling, I am pro nerf if blizzard does it properly.

    To note, a title "Fire Completely Wrecked" is going to be a shit show and if you are trying to defend the mage community, don't make these posts the ones that become popular. 7.1 Fire discussion would have been a title that would invite less troll, that is the one you should be posting on and promoting. This one is basically asking to be targeted.
    I didn't name the thread. Frankly I am surprised it hasn't been locked when we have a much more productively named thread here

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...s-facing-7-1-5

    I guess this one focuses on fire but the knee jerk reaction to the changes shaped the title.

    We disagree that Mages need a nerf. I find almost nothing I do exceptional in terms of damage, and damage is basically all I bring, My CC is only rarely called upon, even in mythic+ as the time limit means that, occasional affix aside, it is much more productive to just cleave everything down. The ONLY area where my damage does go wild is in mass aoe or cleave bosses. And the boss I'm cleaving has to stick with my main target and live long enough for my ignite to do appreciable damage


    But as things stand,a lot of posters here have little sympathy for Mages. I fail to say why I should be nerfed into oblivion, as some have advocated, because their class is suffering.

    Besides, I've lived through the same patch cycles you have with fire being broken mid expansion to rise again at the end. You know what we did? We all respec Arcane, a LITERAL glass cannon spec. It bursts like nothing else does. And people then begin to complain about Mages and their Arcane god mode.

    We can't win with trolls who won't be happy till their spec is top dog. After all, if Mages are the favored child, then that is someone taking THEIR spot.

  15. #315
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    Watching method's Helya mythic video atm.. How blizzard imagine fire mages doing competative ST dps on that fight without Ice Floes is beyond me.. Unless they buff scorch damage by around 75-100% and make it affect kindling, mage's will be outdps'd by most other dps classes..

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I didn't name the thread. Frankly I am surprised it hasn't been locked when we have a much more productively named thread here

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...s-facing-7-1-5

    I guess this one focuses on fire but the knee jerk reaction to the changes shaped the title.

    We disagree that Mages need a nerf. I find almost nothing I do exceptional in terms of damage, and damage is basically all I bring, My CC is only rarely called upon, even in mythic+ as the time limit means that, occasional affix aside, it is much more productive to just cleave everything down. The ONLY area where my damage does go wild is in mass aoe or cleave bosses. And the boss I'm cleaving has to stick with my main target and live long enough for my ignite to do appreciable damage


    But as things stand,a lot of posters here have little sympathy for Mages. I fail to say why I should be nerfed into oblivion, as some have advocated, because their class is suffering.

    Besides, I've lived through the same patch cycles you have with fire being broken mid expansion to rise again at the end. You know what we did? We all respec Arcane, a LITERAL glass cannon spec. It bursts like nothing else does. And people then begin to complain about Mages and their Arcane god mode.

    We can't win with trolls who won't be happy till their spec is top dog. After all, if Mages are the favored child, then that is someone taking THEIR spot.
    The trolls are not trying to make their spec the top, they are trying to get a rise from you.

    Mages are always one of the favored childs, they were when I played it and they always have been.

    This thread should be locked but it has caught the anger of some players which seemed more appealing to them which caused it to get popular which invited trolls.

    Mages don't need their damaged nerfed right now, they will need it in that patch as fire always gains that nerf mid expansion. You know this, everyone else knows this.

    Problem with Mythic+ is a few things they bring over others. Strong cleave, high mobility while being ranged, Good AoE disorient, heroism/bloodlust, short DPS cooldown, High damage bursty single target opener for bosses, good CC and decent ranged interrupt, Low ramp time compared to other range classes, Mana biscuits (You may put this down but a good healer can easily go threw stacks if they do a drink stop every pull, this is were you get between pulls and when you get that split second out of combat you drink, half the time you only get one tick but one tick is one tick), I can keep going but to shorten it down is that Mages bring a bit of everything while being better at it all then other ranged classes. The fact that they have strong cleave, high mobility while ranged (I know this is somewhat gone next patch) and high burst single target opener causes them to be ideal for mythic+ over any other ranged, you then get to add everything else they bring.

    The only actual nerf I thought they needed was the mobility. Scorch isn't the best spell but is a lot stronger then most ranged mobility, to add icy floes, it caused scorch to be almost useless and they then have this super mobility with the two. So removing Icyfloes is the only thing I am for on the actual nerf side of things.

    Though for the changes, I do like the movement of Blast wave and the added in talent for Dragons breath is 'interesting'. One mage in my guild has the helm and the two mixed seem pretty crazy.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbadubba View Post
    The trolls are not trying to make their spec the top, they are trying to get a rise from you.

    Mages are always one of the favored childs, they were when I played it and they always have been.

    This thread should be locked but it has caught the anger of some players which seemed more appealing to them which caused it to get popular which invited trolls.

    Mages don't need their damaged nerfed right now, they will need it in that patch as fire always gains that nerf mid expansion. You know this, everyone else knows this.

    Problem with Mythic+ is a few things they bring over others. Strong cleave, high mobility while being ranged, Good AoE disorient, heroism/bloodlust, short DPS cooldown, High damage bursty single target opener for bosses, good CC and decent ranged interrupt, Low ramp time compared to other range classes, Mana biscuits (You may put this down but a good healer can easily go threw stacks if they do a drink stop every pull, this is were you get between pulls and when you get that split second out of combat you drink, half the time you only get one tick but one tick is one tick), I can keep going but to shorten it down is that Mages bring a bit of everything while being better at it all then other ranged classes. The fact that they have strong cleave, high mobility while ranged (I know this is somewhat gone next patch) and high burst single target opener causes them to be ideal for mythic+ over any other ranged, you then get to add everything else they bring.

    The only actual nerf I thought they needed was the mobility. Scorch isn't the best spell but is a lot stronger then most ranged mobility, to add icy floes, it caused scorch to be almost useless and they then have this super mobility with the two. So removing Icyfloes is the only thing I am for on the actual nerf side of things.

    Though for the changes, I do like the movement of Blast wave and the added in talent for Dragons breath is 'interesting'. One mage in my guild has the helm and the two mixed seem pretty crazy.
    And nobody talks about the negatives.


    The cleave is strong only if the mobs live long enough to take the full brunt of the damage.

    High burst yes, but at the cost of weak sustain.

    An ungodly dependence on a single secondary stat to even achieve decent damage.

    Not to mention zero survivability. I don't think I am exaggerating when I say that Fire Mage is the most fragile class in the game. One immunity ever five minutes, sure, but after that?

    I personally expect Ice Floes to go and scorch to be buffed in compensation. With the artifact trait giving a stacking 25% speed buff and the talent providing a 30% flat speed buff for 3 seconds if you cast scorch...I fully expect to hear people complaining about Fire Mages going giddy in battlegrounds kiting them with a scorch speed build.

    Mobility is pretty much part of the fire mage fantasy. And I am not ashamed of that. Our mobility is the compensation we get for our lack of defensives.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psykee View Post
    Dear Mages

    Now you may feel the touch of mortality, the touch that the rest of us have lived with for years.

    There will be tears, it will be tough. But i am sure we are all gonna come out of this together.
    See? This is the sort of stuff I talk about it that kills my empathy for other classes.

    Shoo. Shoo.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2016-11-21 at 08:49 PM.

  18. #318
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    Dear Mages

    Now you may feel the touch of mortality, the touch that the rest of us have lived with for years.

    There will be tears, it will be tough. But i am sure we are all gonna come out of this together.

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    I don't understand how we go through this every expansion and blizzard still fails to recognize the bigger problem.

    Typically fire is always OP in the beginning of the expansion primarily because we rely heavily on critical strike to make our spec as a whole. Critical strike is easy to get by stacking it on all of our gear and while it may go up from 40-50-60%. Over the course of the first tier our overall critical strike % stays flat, yet we continue to gain other stats which only marginally increase our damage.

    In comparison other classes who scale well from multiple secondary stats, not just 1 like fire mages, are more gimped in the beginning of the expansion and less so at the end of it due to the increasing stats on gear and better scaling along with them.

    What this translates too ultimately is the problem we are seeing fire mages make their DPS quicker in the expansion while other classes struggle to keep up. By the second tier we are historically tied and by the third we are typically giving up fire due to it's lack of ability to keep up. Nerfing fire in the front of this expansion will only lead to fire falling significantly behind in later expansions as other classes and even other mage specs scale better and better.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Rip fire, have fun melees doing 500 while afking
    lol mages complaining about melee being easy in pve

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