So has the numbers been crunched, will Nemesis topple Momentum?

[Cymorìl]

I started playing havoc dh a few days ago and have to say this change is just saddenning.

Having the best option when played at max potential being the hardest to master and the one with the most minmax potential is good design, you can leave a viable option like nemesis for people who just want to lick their screen and do decent.
Catering to bad players by making the hard/interesting talent worse than the nobrain talent is just bad design, you're dumbing down the spec to the extreme in some scenarios, and reducing the impact of a player on the situations were momentum is still ahead.
Momentum is literally what makes the spec remotely interesting, without that it's just a tasteless auto attack and use your charges/fury spec
Windwalkers got the same treatment from wod to 7.0, removing chi torpedo, removing brew charges, removing clone management, that's just destroying the soul of the spec to make it a generic melee with *insert class fantasy* spell names

At some point designers need to step up and tell people "that's how the class plays, if you don't like it then don't play it" instead of completly destroying everything that makes a spec interesting so everyone and their mother clicking and keyboard turning can play it, that's not a good direction to aim the game at

tdlr: make the hardest talents the best option, make viable alternatives for people who don't want to make efforts, don't make it so the brainless option becomes the best, and the game can only get better from there

Generally speaking that's should be the rule, the problem is that we just have one dps spec and should be viable both in pve and pvp. Even with honor talents, sometimes it's hard to obtain decent results... That's why I really hope that talents like demon blades and/or felblade become baseline. In 7.1.5 they fixed something and destroyed other things, right now I don't like what they are doing.

[Cazz17]

Being a mobile class has nothing to do with rotations. Should Monks have to roll and backflip all over the place because they're highly mobile? You see how this logic literally makes no sense?

People play a class for the fantasy of it. I want to beat people up while turning into a demon. I don't want to rush around and do a lot more work than most other melee classes while doing less damage in the process. That's not fun in the slightest.

Does roll give them a damage buff? No

[DemoBytom]

Then play monk. Demon Hunter was designed with Fel Rush as a damaging ability. It's not just there for mobility. If you don't like it you should probably reroll because you're going to be using it even without Momentum.

You know that monks in MoP changed with every single major comtent patch? Their gameplay, was changed every time.. not to mention total redesing in Legion..
What's more they were initially designed with different resource system and no autoattacks..

The point is - just because a class was designed in one way doesn't mean it cant and/or shouldn't change. Especially for a newly introduced class.

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Does roll give them a damage buff? No

It did.. or rather it did give resources. Blizz changed it, partially since it was a pvp set bonus, partially because they didnt want movement abilities to be used for DPS reasons..

[epLe]

People throwing out statements like they know the designers intentions...

Blizzard makes changes like a rollercoaster, you got to accept the lows as much as the highs.

Considering the melee bloat and how messy having a couple of DHs fel rushing at cd is for rest of melee, Momentum may have had its time.
It is not a great design, but can easily be fixed with small tweaks to numbers.

Somehow Nemesis starts to feel more difficult to use, as you actually have to consider carefully when to pop it (contra momentum on CD).

[Saiyendra]

Somehow Nemesis starts to feel more difficult to use, as you actually have to consider carefully when to pop it (contra momentum on CD).

You can't be serious. Either that or this is veiled bait.

[Deleted]

Somehow Nemesis starts to feel more difficult to use, as you actually have to consider carefully when to pop it (contra momentum on CD).

Yeah sure, so hard to pop everything when you have to pop everything from the beginning of the fight.
Nemesis is dull, there's no debate about it. It's yet another cooldown with the sole difference of being usable on the target rather than being a buff.

[ufta]

Avoiding keywords like "difficult", because difficultly is relative to the beholder...
I hate what is happening to Momentum for the sole reason that Momentum was/is the only ability that DH's have that really produces any kind of skill cap whatsoever....and imo it creates a pretty noticeable skill cap at that. There has been a clear difference between a good DH and a bad DH, and that difference is proper use of Momentum.

I logged into PTR yesterday and tried several new builds. My current spec on live is way down (and I don't have a ring).
I did, however, throw together a Felblade/Chaos Cleave/Nemesis build that is doing about the same DPS I currently do on live while remaining planted in the same spot 100% of the time.

This was on the single target dummy in the class hall. Comparable ST dmg to live while not using any mobility abilities (other than Felblade) or defensive CDs. Just standing there and mashing my face on the keyboard. Mind-numbingly boring. So easy, even a noob could do it.

I'm sure there's plenty of tuning left to come....but if a build so stupid easy as this turns out to be the best option, or even close to it, then this class will truly become Demon Huntards. Makes me sad.

[mitre27]

Should be Eye Beam imo. That button begs for a reason to get pushed outside of aoe packs.


Also, this thread just makes me sad. Anyone that thinks Nemesis should be more rewarding than Momentum is delusional. If you want to take the less skill intensive talent, you deserve less dps. "LOL MOMENTUM ISN'T EVEN HARD", no, but it requires a hell of a lot more thought/effort and has higher margin for error than pressing Nemesis every 2 min. That point is irrefutable. Nemesis should still leave you comparable to other dps, but it should be markedly behind Momentum. It's okay if the gap shrinks in niches like single target, but there needs to be a gap.

Point is, momentum doesn't require a hell of a lot more thought though, maybe if you don't use any addons it may be tricky, with addons it's a joke, it can be awkward on some mythic fights i guess, but i disagree that it should be the best in every situation, sorry nemesis should spank it on pure ST just like momentum spanks it on AoE and cleave which is most mythic fights.

There really is some group delusion that momentum makes the class hard or require skill, it doesn't, you fel rush either way, the only difference between them is you have an addon that tracks the buff from momentum and you don't fel rush/VR until you have a decent fury pool, super hard and requires a lot of thought right?

[ufta]

There really is some group delusion that momentum makes the class hard or require skill, it doesn't,

I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong here. The logs prove it. The DHs doing suboptimal dps are using momentum suboptimally.

[Lolsteak]

I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong here. The logs prove it. The DHs doing suboptimal dps are using momentum suboptimally.

Logs don't prove shit, Momentum is the cookie cutter build right now everyone specs it.

[Littlepwny]

Logs don't prove shit, Momentum is the cookie cutter build right now everyone specs it.

Yes Momentum is the best talent by far.

However, you will find DHs a wide range of momentum usage %; so wide in fact that many players are better off switching to Nemesis for certain fights.

Nemesis is just a 2 min CD with 1 min duration; that offers little to no variance caused by the ability itself with the exception of completely incorrect usage of Nemesis.


These two facts mean that Momentum should be the better talent by design.

[ufta]

Logs don't prove shit, Momentum is the cookie cutter build right now everyone specs it.

lol of course everyone specs it. What the logs show is that not everyone is playing it correctly. You won't find 90+% parses with DHs who don't know how to use momentum correctly. You won't find 90+% parses from a DH who had 53% momentum uptime.

What you WILL see, however, is a metric ton of 30%-50%-70% parses from DHs who are rocking a 45-55% momentum uptime.

[mitre27]

I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong here. The logs prove it. The DHs doing suboptimal dps are using momentum suboptimally.

Even if momentum was removed fully, you would have huge variation in output among the playerbase, i guess that means the non momentum build is hard also? Rofl.

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Demon Speed seems to be the more significant change, not numbers tuning on Nemesis. I don't play Havoc so no skin in this game but I did find turning the defensive cooldown into a dps cooldown to be a really counterintuitive passive.
As for Momentum being about the mobile class fantasy, that's just not true. Fel Rush being a high DPET ability is what creates that class fantasy and that will stay true even without Momentum and Fel Mastery. You will still need to use Fel Rush rotationally, still need to make sure you don't land in shit and be prepared to reposition.
Momentum is about dumping cooldowns and fury during specific windows of time and just waiting on them outside those windows. With Demon Blades being a passive it seems you often end up just standing there still waiting for resources to accrue so you can dump them on your next Momentum window. It certainly is more complex than the alternative but it is also inherently more powerful on any encounter where there is any downtime or frequent burst windows, which is the majority of raid encounters. It is not about mobility but rather about tactical resource management; a gameplay element that does not easily evoke class fantasy.
Practically speaking, Nemesis can sim better and Momentum will still outperform it in most encounters because Momentum fits encounter design while Nemesis only fits 3/5/7 min patchwerks.

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Eh yes, it is additional decision making compared to Nemesis so it is comparatively harder, that is self evident. Rotations do not happen in a vaccuum, they happen during combat. Adjusting the Momentum rotation to each encounter as well as to individual events (the demon hunter being targeted by boss mechanics) is a big part of the built and because fel rush has charges and demon blades works great for banking resources, those adjustments are not minor.

I'm not arguing that nemesis is harder, but momentum isn't some sky high skill ceiling like some people make it out to be, is it harder than nemesis? Sure, but not much for players who aren't bad, and bad players will do poorly regardless of spec.

I'm a strong supporter of different talents shining in different situations, the current cookie cutter build where you only change 1 talent for ST sucks.

Then again, talent switching for fights can be too expensive with the shitty tome system they have in legion, give us back tomes of clear mind from vendors damnit.

[Moozart]

How is Momentum clunky? Don't just throw out buzzwords. You pool your fury, use VR or FR, hit chaos strike a few times. What about this is clunky?

"buzzword" is more of a friggen buzzword than "clunky" And clunky indeed best described it.

[Deleted]

I have mixed feelings about this.

I really wanted to move away from Shaman for the first time ever this expansion and had high hopes for the DH. Levelling was fun but when I got to 110 I hated having to move all the time. This was largely down to how tiring I was finding it after a whole days worth of play and I could imagine progression raid nights being the same. I have no issues with using Fel Rush but it's the VR camera spinning nonsense that got me.

All that being said, and whilst I was hoping for it to change, I went back to enhance Shaman as it was more my play style. Whilst these changes are making me look at the DH again it is at the potential expense of those that loved the movement style DPS it had going on which is a bummer. The calls for people to "play another class" aren't that unreasonable if you are trying to play something that just isn't for you.

[Deix-EU]

Logs don't prove shit, Momentum is the cookie cutter build right now everyone specs it.

Yeah, 3 DHs until now said that to me. They had 50k+ DPS less than me with the same ilvl. I'm averaging the 63% uptime most often while they were at 50%.
But hey, it's easy to play ^_^, keep thinking that. Played everying else with a hand in my pant. Other classes are just "push the button when he's bright" (and yet some are still failing at it).

[Lolsteak]

Yeah, 3 DHs until now said that to me. They had 50k+ DPS less than me with the same ilvl. I'm averaging the 63% uptime most often while they were at 50%.
But hey, it's easy to play ^_^, keep thinking that. Played everying else with a hand in my pant. Other classes are just "push the button when he's bright" (and yet some are still failing at it).

Herpderp i'm higher dips than them so it must mean it's the most skilled talent

Bads will be bad no matter what talents they pick, Momentum isn't hard folks sorry to burst your bubble.

[carnicide]

Calling a spec "brain dead" and only the "Screen lickers will like this change" isn't going to be counted as valid feed back. Please do valid testing and show numbers for example: "In my current set up I can pull X amount of dps, in the new set up I now pull this amount DPS. With the new talents I am able to produce this vaule of DPS, however the play style isn't enjoyable. Whereas I agree that the current live play style is a cookie cutter build. Could you please look into adjusting the numbers so that either play style is viable for the players to have choice?" No one will ever take you serious if you do nothing but name call and belittle other peoples opinions.

[Lucetia]

Logs don't prove shit, Momentum is the cookie cutter build right now everyone specs it.

Except, not everyone specs it? I mean I could probably go through the armory and find a handful of people who don't spec Momentum. Because you know you said everyone does it and specs into it..

[Frozenbro]

Except, not everyone specs it? I mean I could probably go through the armory and find a handful of people who don't spec Momentum. Because you know you said everyone does it and specs into it..

Everyone who does shit dmg doesnt use momentum, and the difference between good momentum users and bad momentum users is huge, you have a lot of DHs doing shitty damage with the same build, theres the hard part of momentum, its hard to master, the people who say its easy are the same baddies who can barely get 50% uptime on it if they are lucky and they are more than happy that their brainless nemesis/fel eruption are getting buffs cause momentum is too much for them, but they dont accept that and come saying "hey momentum is not hard, you just track a buff" it almost sounds like a joke, every single player who has said momentum is easy is a garbage momentum user and they havent prove the opposite