So has the numbers been crunched, will Nemesis topple Momentum?

[Lucetia]

Everyone who does shit dmg doesnt use momentum, and the difference between good momentum users and bad momentum users is huge, you have a lot of DHs doing shitty damage with the same build, theres the hard part of momentum, its hard to master, the people who say its easy are the same baddies who can barely get 50% uptime on it if they are lucky and they are more than happy that their brainless nemesis/fel eruption are getting buffs cause momentum is too much for them, but they dont accept that and come saying "hey momentum is not hard, you just track a buff" it almost sounds like a joke, every single player who has said momentum is easy is a garbage momentum user and they havent prove the opposite

But none of that is what he said. He said everyone​ uses it. Which isn't the case.

[Frozenbro]

But none of that is what he said. He said everyone​ uses it. Which isn't the case.

I guess with everyone he was reffering to all the high parses DH

[Ralor]

This thread is just toxic at this point. None of this conversation is constructive at. Pointing fingers at Nemesis/Fel Eruption players saying git gud and Momentum is elite. While Nemesis players point fingers back. Just drop the argument. Some people play different specs BECAUSE THEY LIKE IT, regardless of the outcome.

[Deleted]

How in thee blue hell does it make it interesting if it doesn't change your rotation at all by dropping it? You will still zip around and use FR...it changes nothing...is having to press a extra button every 2 minutes to much effort for you?

When you've raided for 12 years not standing in fire becomes second nature, playing a stationary rotational spec bores me to bloody death, clicking 1-1-1-3-2 repeat is the most dull thing ever.
Aye, you'll rush around, spamming Fel rush twice (never using VR) and that's it. Momentum adds the mini game of resourcemanagement and micro managing a buff, I.E makes the game interesting for those who want the extra challenge.

Nemesis removes all thought from the spec and makes it yet another "click the shiny button" boring spec, that's all.

[Littlepwny]

But none of that is what he said. He said everyone​ uses it. Which isn't the case.

It is called a hyperbole; hyperbole is a statement that is exaggerated for the purpose of emphasis. But you know that, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

The point is that Demon Hunters almost universally pick Momentum, they also don't pick Chaos Cleave or Desperate Instincts. There's also probably someone that doesn't pick any talents at all.

I guess with everyone he was reffering to all the high parses DH

Well, the number 23 DH on Ursoc does have Nemesis and doesn't have AotHG (he was top parse at some point). He uses Momentum on most fights though.

[Lucetia]

It is called a hyperbole; hyperbole is a statement that is exaggerated for the purpose of emphasis. But you know that, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Except when people are trying to prove a point or make an emphasis on something they bring tangible proof to help support their claim. Not use hyperbole or made up numbers to support their claim.

[Littlepwny]

You won't find 90+% parses from a DH who had 53% momentum uptime.

You will actually, quite a few of them. Even 99% ST parses. The caveat is that the vast majority of them will have AotHG making up for their suboptimal play.

[Deleted]

Except, not everyone specs it? I mean I could probably go through the armory and find a handful of people who don't spec Momentum. Because you know you said everyone does it and specs into it..

*Raises hand* I don't spec Momentum. I don't need that kind of commit in my life.

[Deix-EU]

Herpderp i'm higher dips than them so it must mean it's the most skilled talent

Bads will be bad no matter what talents they pick, Momentum isn't hard folks sorry to burst your bubble.

But that gap doesn't exist with a non momentum build with DH, peeps with Fel Erupt and Nemesis nowadays are quite "steady", easy to play, static, no risk to move in shits. Unfortunately, they do no DPS but it's in this case the SPEC, not peeps.

[Sarange]

But that gap doesn't exist with a non momentum build with DH, peeps with Fel Erupt and Nemesis nowadays are quite "steady", easy to play, static, no risk to move in shits. Unfortunately, they do no DPS but it's in this case the SPEC, not peeps.

The gap may be smaller, but it will still be there. It just wont be because of momentum uptime.

[ufta]

You will actually, quite a few of them. Even 99% ST parses. The caveat is that the vast majority of them will have AotHG making up for their suboptimal play.

Touche.
/10char

[ChakanDH]

Momentum is love. Momentum is life.


All seriousness, I love the momentum style, when all is said and done I do HOPE it remains the highest dps option. That's just my opinion though, completely respect that people may dislike it.

[Phookah]

I will say it again: Momentum should just become our mastery.

Ohhh. I like that idea.

[iperson]

Except when people are trying to prove a point or make an emphasis on something they bring tangible proof to help support their claim. Not use hyperbole or made up numbers to support their claim.

Forgot all the mods here are pedantic trolls. Time to filter out all the forums again on my new machine...

[Infective]

This thread is just toxic at this point. None of this conversation is constructive at. Pointing fingers at Nemesis/Fel Eruption players saying git gud and Momentum is elite. While Nemesis players point fingers back. Just drop the argument. Some people play different specs BECAUSE THEY LIKE IT, regardless of the outcome.

Yes. And that's fine. But what isn't fine is people trying to insist their snowflake spec should be buffed into beating the current top spec, because they think they shouldn't have to be "stigmatized" as suboptimal, or be "forced to play" the existing top spec. That's just begging for the wrong people to be catered to in this game. Nemesis should be similar dps to other dps classes. it should not inherently be better than momentum. it's a fire and forget button u hit once every 2 minutes...if demon blades isn't allowed to be the best option because "it's passive", Nemesis shouldn't be allowed because it is 1 button press every 2 minutes away from being a passive itself.

Point is, momentum doesn't require a hell of a lot more thought though, maybe if you don't use any addons it may be tricky, with addons it's a joke, it can be awkward on some mythic fights i guess, but i disagree that it should be the best in every situation, sorry nemesis should spank it on pure ST just like momentum spanks it on AoE and cleave which is most mythic fights.

There really is some group delusion that momentum makes the class hard or require skill, it doesn't, you fel rush either way, the only difference between them is you have an addon that tracks the buff from momentum and you don't fel rush/VR until you have a decent fury pool, super hard and requires a lot of thought right?

I love that I anticipated and mocked the, "LOL MOMENTUM ISN'T EVEN HARD" argument and then you go on to make that exact argument without actually refuting the point I made...

no, but it requires a hell of a lot more thought/effort and has higher margin for error than pressing Nemesis every 2 min.

...oh. right.

That point is irrefutable.

The fact such high variance exists between parses where it can directly be correlated to Momentum uptime proves that management of the buff is the most important factor of the skillcap the class currently has. The end.

[Lengs]

[IMG]
(this is one of Kib's sims)

It is definitely a single target gain. Not sure why Momentum is equated with movement among demon hunters >>

Surely this Kib's sims is not a single target fight if Death sweep is the top source of damage and Blade dance 5th.
If you have neither Fel Mastery nor Momentum selected as your talents, you would not be using Fel Rush at all on single target.
You would instead be spamming demon bite's/blade to generate more fury to spam Chaos Strike (high source of single target damage) and increasing the chance of resetting Felblade to spam that as well, as Felblade would be a higher source of damage compared to a Fel Rush without Fel Mastery and Momentum.

- - - Updated - - -

Reply to Thread Title:
I think we are not losing Momentum build completely.
The changes will give us the option to go with Nemesis build for Single Target fights and Momentum for Multi-Target fights with constant 5 or more targets such as Mythic Nythendra and Helya encounters (though DPS would drop significantly in Phase 3).
I think that is the idea.

In my opinion though, the likelihood of using Momentum build for any encounters will decrease significantly because you would still want to prioritize damage on boss over adds for the entire encounter. Those adds can be AEed down easily by raid group without DH.

If possible, could they allow Nemesis's 25% damage increase to work on additional 2 or 3 targets even when primary target is still alive?
Though this would then definitely render Momentum completely useless.

How to keep Momentum a viable option with the upcoming Nemesis buff? Hmz...
I think they still need to give us a way to reset Fel Rush?

[Frozenbro]

Surely this Kib's sims is not a single target fight if Death sweep is the top source of damage and Blade dance 5th.
If you have neither Fel Mastery nor Momentum selected as your talents, you would not be using Fel Rush at all on single target.
You would instead be spamming demon bite's/blade to generate more fury to spam Chaos Strike (high source of single target damage) and increasing the chance of resetting Felblade to spam that as well, as Felblade would be a higher source of damage compared to a Fel Rush without Fel Mastery and Momentum.

First blood talent in PTR is the go to talent in that row, and thats why its your highest damage, you certainly didnt read 7.1.5 PTR notes

[Svisalith]

We are clearly only allowed to imagine demon hunters playing one way, basing the entire class around one talent.

We're only "allowed" to play Fire mages one way; with Ignite and Pyroblast. That's not neccesarily a bad thing.

[mitre27]

Yes. And that's fine. But what isn't fine is people trying to insist their snowflake spec should be buffed into beating the current top spec, because they think they shouldn't have to be "stigmatized" as suboptimal, or be "forced to play" the existing top spec. That's just begging for the wrong people to be catered to in this game. Nemesis should be similar dps to other dps classes. it should not inherently be better than momentum. it's a fire and forget button u hit once every 2 minutes...if demon blades isn't allowed to be the best option because "it's passive", Nemesis shouldn't be allowed because it is 1 button press every 2 minutes away from being a passive itself.



I love that I anticipated and mocked the, "LOL MOMENTUM ISN'T EVEN HARD" argument and then you go on to make that exact argument without actually refuting the point I made......oh. right. The fact such high variance exists between parses where it can directly be correlated to Momentum uptime proves that management of the buff is the most important factor of the skillcap the class currently has. The end.

I'm not arguing that nemesis is harder though, i'm arguing that momentum isn't hard, and it's not.

It requires more thought, sure, but not a hell of a lot more, it barely requires any thought after getting used to it for an hour.

High variances exist among all classes and specs, trying to use that to prove your point is stupid, don't play flawlessly? Your spec must be super hard, you don't need to play with 100% perfection to say something isn't hard, that's stupid and if you play to a decent level, someone playing at a perfect level won't beat you by much, a few % at most.

[Deleted]

How about this:

Felrush, if it hits just ONE target, resets Felblade.
Each Chaosstrike (crit?) which hits during momentum hast a chance to reset a Felrush-Charge.
This would result in an awesome fast playstyle.

Rush -> Felblade in -> CS CS -> Rush -> Felblade in -> ... and so on...