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  1. #61
    Sidewinders are good because they are a reliable source of vulnerable. Without that, you only have windburst and rng based vulnerable. I don't think it feels good.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxie View Post
    Sidewinders are good because they are a reliable source of vulnerable. Without that, you only have windburst and rng based vulnerable. I don't think it feels good.
    No, it doesn't feel good, I agree. But Sidewinders is a terrible solution for a terrible design.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    I play it, but I dislike it a lot. I've played MM since I started playing, in Cataclysm.

    Legion MM doesn't feel like an archer, an sniper or an evolution of MM.

    -----
    Edit: And I'll say more: Those that say Arcane Shot needs to be spammed really haven't played with Arcane Shot for a long time. I do play without Sidewinders, and if not for Piercing Shot requiring a lot of focus every 30 seconds, I could keep up my rotation by just weaving one Arcane Shot after an Aimed Shot. You rarelly need to cast two or three Arcane shots in a row, and most often only do it because of Piercing Shot.

    Natural Focus regeneration is pretty strong in this expansion.
    thats only because you have so low uptime on vulnerable you dont need to cast nearly as many aimed shots as with sw and yes, I have played without SW for more than a month and still take piercing for volcanic weeks, it has way better aoe during trueshot in m+, but also way worse ST during trueshot precisely because it doesnt have enough focus to spam aimeds like SW...

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    thats only because you have so low uptime on vulnerable you dont need to cast nearly as many aimed shots as with sw and yes, I have played without SW for more than a month and still take piercing for volcanic weeks, it has way better aoe during trueshot in m+, but also way worse ST during trueshot precisely because it doesnt have enough focus to spam aimeds like SW...
    I play with Sentinel instead of Patient Sniper, so Vulnerable uptime is not a problem. But damage is shit, and that's the problem: a spec shouldn't be dependent on a talent combo in order to be viable. It's even worst when that same talent combo is the best in both AoE and single target.

    Like I said before in this thread, Patient Sniper was designed as a "high risk, high reward" talent. However, because Sidewinders applied Vulnerable all the time and no other option did it, it turned the Sidewinder-Patient Sniper combo into a "low risk, high reward" must-have combo.

    Blizzard needs to fix the baseline spec first. If Patient Sniper is going to be baseline, then either non-vulnerable Aimed Shots and Marked Shots will need to be buffed a lot, or we will need to have so many "Marking Targets" procs that we can have high Vulnerable uptime (which defeats the whole purpose of Vulnerable...). But keeping old SW-PS combo would be no fix at all.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Most of those who like SW are just interested in DPS meters.
    Your point being?
    As a dps it is my job to contribute damage. As much as possible to the right targets at the right time. That's how I judge my contribution to the raid group and I need that to be fine.
    They don't care if we waste entire talents rows
    Well, not entirely, but Blizz's policy of making this the ultimate design goal is bull**. This pales in comparison by orders of magnitude to the above performance question.
    Talent choices would be cool, no doubt, but not at this cost.
    , or if shooting snakes makes no sense
    even smaller issue (to me)
    , all they want is their incredible spread cleave damage intact. And even complain that it needs more single target damage!
    Incredible? What's your experience with Hunters outside of Il'gynoth?

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Sol77 View Post
    Your point being?
    As a dps it is my job to contribute damage. As much as possible to the right targets at the right time. That's how I judge my contribution to the raid group and I need that to be fine.
    Hey, guess what? For a good design, you should be able to have good DPS with more than a single talent build. Also, for a good design, a single talent build should not be the best for all situations!

    Liking a shitty design does not make it any less shitty.

    Well, not entirely, but Blizz's policy of making this the ultimate design goal is bull**. This pales in comparison by orders of magnitude to the above performance question.
    Talent choices would be cool, no doubt, but not at this cost.
    What cost? Why are you assuming you will have a huge loss of DPS even before we know the the full scope of the changes?
    A single target build out-performing all other options so much just proves it's a shitty design.

    even smaller issue (to me)
    Thus proving my original point that those in favor of SW-PT combo just care about their numbers. If you were shooting unicorns out of your butt you'd still be happy as long as the DPS is great.

    Incredible? What's your experience with Hunters outside of Il'gynoth?
    What's your experience with Hunters outside Sidewinders-Patiente Sniper combo? Shitty, isn't it? Well, that's the problem to begin with.
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2016-11-21 at 04:41 PM.

  7. #67
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by randomasiandude View Post
    I agree that it would be easy to play, but if I had to choose between it being a braindead spec, or a spec that relies on the luck of the draw I'd choose braindead, but that's just me.
    At the moment it doesn't rely on luck of the draw. If you're talking about the PTR, then yes... fully agree. Death to vulnerability and all that comes with it.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedirt View Post
    At the moment it doesn't rely on luck of the draw.
    That's why SW-PT is so powerful. It removes the luck of the draw, and you can maintain almost all the time a buff that was designed to be available only sometimes. That's why non-SW MM sucks. And that's why people are so negative about SW not applying Vulnerable anymore.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    What cost? Why are you assuming you will have a huge loss of DPS even before we know the the full scope of the changes?
    Maybe you didn't get the memo, but benefit of the doubt no longer works at Blizz.

    Compared to the old days (I stopped raiding during WotLK and came back for WoD) it feels like their quality assurance has gone missing. They come up with so many weird ideas these days and go "just do it" with them instead of thinking them through. Take the RNG mess of titanforged and legendaries for examples. Or the gutting of a spec until the next major patch, which might just happen to us now. I have no more faith in their judgement so the only thing that apparently works (at least for other classes) is to be vocal about bad changes.

    The MM spec is especially precious now since we've had one spec taken away already and BM is mechanically bad, which is harder to fix then tuning MM-numbers could have been.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sol77 View Post
    Maybe you didn't get the memo, but benefit of the doubt no longer works at Blizz.

    Compared to the old days (I stopped raiding during WotLK and came back for WoD) it feels like their quality assurance has gone missing. They come up with so many weird ideas these days and go "just do it" with them instead of thinking them through. Take the RNG mess of titanforged and legendaries for examples. Or the gutting of a spec until the next major patch, which might just happen to us now. I have no more faith in their judgement so the only thing that apparently works (at least for other classes) is to be vocal about bad changes.

    The MM spec is especially precious now since we've had one spec taken away already and BM is mechanically bad, which is harder to fix then tuning MM-numbers could have been.
    TLDR: "Let's not fix anything because I'm confortable with current design despite it having huge flaws everywhere".

  11. #71
    Deleted
    They already did that with 7.0, from vanilla and up until WoD, Hunters have had a very recognizable playstyle. That playstyle is gone.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    TLDR: "Let's not fix anything because I'm confortable with current design despite it having huge flaws everywhere".
    They're free to fix stuff. But if their first step to fixing tiny issues is to cleave my left leg off, then yes, screw that.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Thus proving my original point that those in favor of SW-PT combo just care about their numbers. If you were shooting unicorns out of your butt you'd still be happy as long as the DPS is great.
    Those of us in favor of SW/PS care about the flow of a spec and viability in all content. You take away our ability to cleave and we can't run M+ anymore. You take away vulnerable from SW and we can't switch to priority targets when they come up. Losing that combo also ensures that we are stuck with an EXTREMELY clunky spec that is based on auto shot procs which we have 0 control over and are able to do damage only when we get lucky.

    You seem completely ignorant of the fact that most people here have been complaining about the feel of the spec, not the damage. You and Bliz both have your heads so far up your ass that you're unable to grasp the most basic concepts of the spec. If the spec FEELS bad to play, then it sucks ass. SW/PS gave a flow to the rotation with only a small amount of waiting. Without it, we're stuck smashing keys and hoping something happens. We can't even afford to hold our marks for AOE because Arcane Shot is such shit that we can't afford to not generate focus. That procs our HM on one target instead of a number of them like we should be able to. SW rewarded encounter knowledge and quick thinking with movement. None of that is offered with any Arcane Shot builds. The spec is a dumpster fire on the PTR.

    Do you even main a hunter? Do you have any idea how you need to play to do good damage? Or are you making a whole bunch of assumptions?

    And by the way, every class in the game has a single talent build for doing damage. Most have to shift per encounter to switch between ST and AOE but that's it. We had to as well with Barrage/AMoC, and there is no real difference between needing to switch one or three talents. It's still an obnoxious thing they put us through to make sure we spend our gold on their tomes that let us do what we've been doing for a long time without them. Talent swapping.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by construkt View Post
    Those of us in favor of SW/PS care about the flow of a spec and viability in all content. You take away our ability to cleave and we can't run M+ anymore. You take away vulnerable from SW and we can't switch to priority targets when they come up. Losing that combo also ensures that we are stuck with an EXTREMELY clunky spec that is based on auto shot procs which we have 0 control over and are able to do damage only when we get lucky.
    And that's why SW-PS is shitty solution to a shitty design, and I'm in favor of Blizzard breaking it to fix the baseline design.

    You seem completely ignorant of the fact that most people here have been complaining about the feel of the spec, not the damage. You and Bliz both have your heads so far up your ass that you're unable to grasp the most basic concepts of the spec. If the spec FEELS bad to play, then it sucks ass. SW/PS gave a flow to the rotation with only a small amount of waiting. Without it, we're stuck smashing keys and hoping something happens. We can't even afford to hold our marks for AOE because Arcane Shot is such shit that we can't afford to not generate focus. That procs our HM on one target instead of a number of them like we should be able to. SW rewarded encounter knowledge and quick thinking with movement. None of that is offered with any Arcane Shot builds. The spec is a dumpster fire on the PTR.
    Again, all the text above just shows how much shit is the spec design.

    Baseline MM is horrid, and you know it. But instead of fixing it, you keep asking for Blizzard to keep the way it is because you don't care about the shit as long as you have DPS. Again, you'd be fine if MM was doing DPS while shooting unicorns out of its butt.

    Do you even main a hunter? Do you have any idea how you need to play to do good damage? Or are you making a whole bunch of assumptions?
    Yes, I do. I play Hunter since patch 4.3, and it became my main in 6.0. I've always played it as Marksmanship, even when it was the worst of the 3 specs. Legion MM is the first time I'm really upset with the spec.

    And by the way, every class in the game has a single talent build for doing damage.
    No. While there's often a "best configuration" for a given situation, having 3 talent rows locked into a configuration that is best (within the spec) for everything, with almost 30% damage difference to other configurations, is almost the definition of shitty design.

    Most have to shift per encounter to switch between ST and AOE but that's it. We had to as well with Barrage/AMoC, and there is no real difference between needing to switch one or three talents. It's still an obnoxious thing they put us through to make sure we spend our gold on their tomes that let us do what we've been doing for a long time without them. Talent swapping.
    No, the obnoxious thing is the horrid design that required Sidewinders in the first place.

    You are complaining because you liked the broken "fix" for a broken spec. I'm complaining because the spec is broken in the first place, and it can't be fixed if they can't undo the "fix".

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol77 View Post
    They're free to fix stuff. But if their first step to fixing tiny issues is to cleave my left leg off, then yes, screw that.
    That leg was a peg leg in the first place.
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2016-11-21 at 09:29 PM.

  15. #75
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    And that's why SW-PS is shitty solution to a shitty design, and I'm in favor of Blizzard breaking it to fix the baseline design.



    Again, all the text above just shows how much shit is the spec design.

    Baseline MM is horrid, and you know it. But instead of fixing it, you keep asking for Blizzard to keep the way it is because you don't care about the shit as long as you have DPS. Again, you'd be fine if MM was doing DPS while shooting unicorns out of its butt.



    Yes, I do. I play Hunter since patch 4.3, and it became my main in 6.0. I've always played it as Marksmanship, even when it was the worst of the 3 specs. Legion MM is the first time I'm really upset with the spec.



    No. While there's often a "best configuration" for a given situation, having 3 talent rows locked into a configuration that is best (within the spec) for everything, with almost 30% damage difference to other configurations, is almost the definition of shitty design.



    No, the obnoxious thing is the horrid design that required Sidewinders in the first place.

    You are complaining because you liked the broken "fix" for a broken spec. I'm complaining because the spec is broken in the first place, and it can't be fixed if they can't undo the "fix".



    That leg was a peg leg in the first place.
    You keep crying about "How broken" MM and sidewinders are, but I have not seen you post anything saying why they are "broken". Instead of crying about removing an ability that is crucial to how MM plays right now, which would actually break the spec, could you explain what exactly is broken about the spec and sidewinders ??

    Theres only one thing bugged with Sidewinders. It will sometimes apply Hunter's Mark to targets it does not hit. Also snakes are weird, but that could be changed to flame arrow, bolas shot, etc...

    If Blizzard strips MM of what it has right now, we will be left with pure dog shit. The changes made with Legion to the Talents were very lazily done and need to be thought about to correctly fix. They should not rush these changes or Hunter will be in a worse position than it is now.
    Last edited by Ninjeff; 2016-11-21 at 09:42 PM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjeff View Post
    You keep crying about "How broken" MM and sidewinders are, but I have not seen you post anything saying why they are "broken". Instead of crying about removing an ability that is crucial to how MM plays right now, which would actually break the spec, could you explain what exactly is broken about the spec and sidewinders ??
    I'm not the one crying. I'm actually happy to see they nerfing it, because it may mean baseline MM is buffed.

    And about what's broken in the spec, I've stated it too many times in too many threads.

    Vulnerable is a terrible design. It exists just to make our shots hit like wet noodles without it. I don't like how they are making Patient Sniper baseline, but maybe this means the base shots without it will be buffed to compensate, and Vulnerable just becomes a bonus that we benefit from time to time, instead of having the entire rotation being about waiting it to proc. Were it up to me, I'd throw the Vulnerable mechanic in the garbage and think of something else to put in the rotation.

    The only reason Sidewinders was too powerful in the first place is that it bypassed Patient Sniper's main flaw. Patient Sniper was meant to be a high risk, high reward mechanic, but, Vulnerable can be maintained almost all the time, what's the point?

    To make matters worst, as long as SW applies Vulnerable, the spec can't be fixed, because any buffs to Vulnerable, Marked Shot or Aimed Shot will just make Sidewinders even better.

    And our Talent selection is shit. You have exactly one right "choice" in almost every row. I understand that always one talent will be somewhat better than the rest, but with MM the difference can reach up to 30% of our DPS, it's insane.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    I'm not the one crying. I'm actually happy to see they nerfing it, because it may mean baseline MM is buffed.

    And about what's broken in the spec, I've stated it too many times in too many threads.

    Vulnerable is a terrible design. It exists just to make our shots hit like wet noodles without it. I don't like how they are making Patient Sniper baseline, but maybe this means the base shots without it will be buffed to compensate, and Vulnerable just becomes a bonus that we benefit from time to time, instead of having the entire rotation being about waiting it to proc. Were it up to me, I'd throw the Vulnerable mechanic in the garbage and think of something else to put in the rotation.

    The only reason Sidewinders was too powerful in the first place is that it bypassed Patient Sniper's main flaw. Patient Sniper was meant to be a high risk, high reward mechanic, but, Vulnerable can be maintained almost all the time, what's the point?

    To make matters worst, as long as SW applies Vulnerable, the spec can't be fixed, because any buffs to Vulnerable, Marked Shot or Aimed Shot will just make Sidewinders even better.

    And our Talent selection is shit. You have exactly one right "choice" in almost every row. I understand that always one talent will be somewhat better than the rest, but with MM the difference can reach up to 30% of our DPS, it's insane.
    Well, I totally agree with your assessment that SW-PS combo was broken. However, they were a combo because they worked so freakin well together, but are not that special on their own.

    By making PS baseline, while destroying the SW-PS synergy, the class is currently unplayable. Like you said, PS is supposed to be high risk high reward, but now the entire spec is high risk high reward, with no way to mitigate that risk. And I'm giving blizzard the benefit of the doubt here, because "high reward" is currently not the case on PTR.

    Either you make both baseline and add cool new talents, or make both garbage and buff the remaining numbers to accommodate. Right now we're in this in-between awful place of our shots hitting for nothing, relying on RNG upon RNG (2x marking target) AND we need a weakaura to tell us exactly when to hit marked shot (6 seconds after your vulnerable application).

    There's a lot of things that Blizzard can do - including just overtuning the crap out of our numbers to make us viable with an awfully clunky spec. Just that the first iteration is a half finished piece of garbage that should never even have been pushed to PTR.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Azlo View Post
    Well, I totally agree with your assessment that SW-PS combo was broken. However, they were a combo because they worked so freakin well together, but are not that special on their own.

    By making PS baseline, while destroying the SW-PS synergy, the class is currently unplayable. Like you said, PS is supposed to be high risk high reward, but now the entire spec is high risk high reward, with no way to mitigate that risk. And I'm giving blizzard the benefit of the doubt here, because "high reward" is currently not the case on PTR.

    Either you make both baseline and add cool new talents, or make both garbage and buff the remaining numbers to accommodate. Right now we're in this in-between awful place of our shots hitting for nothing, relying on RNG upon RNG (2x marking target) AND we need a weakaura to tell us exactly when to hit marked shot (6 seconds after your vulnerable application).

    There's a lot of things that Blizzard can do - including just overtuning the crap out of our numbers to make us viable with an awfully clunky spec. Just that the first iteration is a half finished piece of garbage that should never even have been pushed to PTR.
    Given the current state in PTR, IMO they should balance the spec around Vulnerable being a bonus you'd not have all the time. Buff Aimed Shot and Marked Shot so we can actually do damage without Vulnerable being up. Another option is to make Marking Target procs more common, but that defeats the purpose of Vulnerable if it's too common.

    Also, they really need to come up with better talents. Trick Shot and Explosive Shot in particular need replacements.

    IMO, hey should just redesign the spec from scratch, basing it in older iterations of MM and Survival (allow us to chose style throught talents). But the chances of that happening are close to zero.

  19. #79
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post

    Baseline MM is horrid, and you know it. But instead of fixing it, you keep asking for Blizzard to keep the way it is because you don't care about the shit as long as you have DPS.
    youre obviously right here. mm baseline is garbage but it was bearable with sw. sw allowed us to switch to focus targets and allowed some amazing cleave. now theyre taking our strenghts away. mayb theyll fix us by 7.2 or 7.3. playing the garbage pile baseline mm is for a couple of months is a underwhelming prospective.

    im a raider. i want to play a specc i enjoy and want to be rewarded with damage according to my performance and ideally some nice nische for my specc.idgaf about class fantasy or storytelling anymore. theres much better rpgs out there in that regard

    Again, you'd be fine if MM was doing DPS while shooting unicorns out of its butt.
    now thats some constructive feedback. ild love it. honestly ild dig it even if its dps was subpar. shooting unicorns. man. the giggles ild have. priceless.
    love your idea.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Legion MM doesn't feel like an archer, an sniper or an evolution of MM.
    Legion MM class fantasy:


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