Hunter 7.1.5 'The goal is to avoid upending how you play the spec.'

[DeicideUH]

Legion MM class fantasy:

Lol, it feels like that, indeed.

[Deleted]

That's why SW-PT is so powerful. It removes the luck of the draw, and you can maintain almost all the time a buff that was designed to be available only sometimes. That's why non-SW MM sucks. And that's why people are so negative about SW not applying Vulnerable anymore.

I can't speak for others, but that isn't my biggest concern. First of all - let's establish that if Vulnerable was designed to be up 'only sometimes' MM would have a single target dps that would be so low that you could barely bring them to Ursoc HC. They're already bottom 3 (assuming no bis legendaries of course) with the design as it is today.

Now, here's my bigg issue with the SW thing - removing the application of Vulnerable through SW presents huge issues in terms of our reliability not only for ST but even more importantly so AOE. By the looks of the current changes, we'll be left with a slightly worse ST than we have now (which is already horrible, mind you) but also a completely gutted AOE capacity. This is why I am so negative about the SW changes, and why I can imagine other people are too.

[DeicideUH]

I can't speak for others, but that isn't my biggest concern. First of all - let's establish that if Vulnerable was designed to be up 'only sometimes' MM would have a single target dps that would be so low that you could barely bring them to Ursoc HC. They're already bottom 3 (assuming no bis legendaries of course) with the design as it is today.

But that's the point. Blizzard needs to fix the baseline problems of the spec (and the class), not keep the band-aid that's holding the spec together.

By removing Vulnerable application from Sidewinders, they'll need to take a look at how dependend we are of the debuff in order to function. Any solution that could potentially fix the spec would also improve the "new" version of Sidewinders.

Now, here's my bigg issue with the SW thing - removing the application of Vulnerable through SW presents huge issues in terms of our reliability not only for ST but even more importantly so AOE. By the looks of the current changes, we'll be left with a slightly worse ST than we have now (which is already horrible, mind you) but also a completely gutted AOE capacity. This is why I am so negative about the SW changes, and why I can imagine other people are too.

Current changes are bad, yes, but not because SW lost its ability to apply Vulnerable. In essence, SW was just "balanced" with the rest of the spec's options. Now everything sucks, and they need to look at the numbers and come up with solutions that will make the spec, not just Sidewinders, work.

As an example: they could increase damage of Aimed Shot and Marked Shot by 100% (yes, 100%, which is the same as non-PS Vulnerable bonus), and the spec would still be underpowered (as the baseline MM is). So, increase their damage by 100% anyway, and then balance damage bonus of Vulnerable based on that (probably would need to go down to 50% bonus during Vulnerable).

[Avikur]

this was just posted by Ornyx on the US PTR forums:

Survival Hunter:
Survival's most notable addition is some new gameplay for traps. As all Hunters will once again have traps in 7.1.5, we want to make sure that Survival still feels like the master of traps. In particular, we want to restore the concept of baiting enemies into traps, as opposed to merely dropping them at their feet for an immediate effect. A new Survival passive will grant all your traps an added effect if an enemy is led into the trap after it is placed, encouraging you to anticipate the movement of an enemy, or coordinate with your tank in group content. Talents further enhance this, allowing you to increase the bonus in situations where you can reliably make use of it, or to use a new effect on Steel Trap to singlehandedly eliminate enemies who walk into it of their own accord.


Marksmanship Hunter:
We agree with players that Marksmanship currently relies far too much on Patient Sniper not only to do good damage, but also to make the rotation feel fun and rewarding. As such, we’re changing baseline Vulnerability to essentially bake in Patient Sniper, and adding a new Patient Sniper talent in its place. We are also adjusting some talents to allow for more diversity within talent rows and reflect the change to the base rotation. In particular, the Level 100 row: while Sidewinders was commonly used in all situations for its effects on the rotation, we’d rather the base rotation felt fluid on its own, and Sidewinders was a talent focused on the wide-area cleave that is its most clear purpose. Among other changes to help with this, Marked Shot no longer requires the targets to have Vulnerable to do strong damage, so builds without Sidewinders will be able to use it more effectively.

[Sol77]

Sounds like they're (still) missing the elephant in the room. That for sure ain't Patient Sniper. How would the rotation even look w/o Sidewinders? Replace this 1 shot with it's two stillborn brethren + use another active talent? Don't even know what my inactive talents outside the Barrage tier are called.

Also, their entire intention is wrong. They just try to fix the "non-noob-compatible" aiming issues of SW and Barrage by nerfing these talents to the ground. Their opinion of the average Hunter player must be awful. Why don't they just give those talents the Starfall treatment? Some kind of toggle (glyph) to make these talents only hit targets that are already in combat.

[Sarevokcz]

this was just posted by Ornyx on the US PTR forums:

I dont they really get it in regards to MM. Patient Sniper was good and rewarding precisely because we had guaranteed vulnerability from sidewinders, now it will feel like shit, because the uptime without guaranteed vuln will drop drastically, but we will be forced into basically having patient sniper yet we loose extra 30 focus so we cant even pool, when the luck doesnt go our way and the extra 15 focus from SW when we would want to actually benefit from vulnerable with multiple aimeds...

they better have alot more changes on ptr asap, otherwise I have a feeling this is "it" for MM hunter and in two months, all MM hunters will be praying to autoshot RNG gods just to beat tanks on ST...

[Azlo]

Sounds like they're (still) missing the elephant in the room. That for sure ain't Patient Sniper. How would the rotation even look w/o Sidewinders? Replace this 1 shot with it's two stillborn brethren + use another active talent? Don't even know what my inactive talents outside the Barrage tier are called.

Also, their entire intention is wrong. They just try to fix the "non-noob-compatible" aiming issues of SW and Barrage by nerfing these talents to the ground. Their opinion of the average Hunter player must be awful. Why don't they just give those talents the Starfall treatment? Some kind of toggle (glyph) to make these talents only hit targets that are already in combat.

If they buff Marked Shot damage by 150%, then Sidewinders behaves exactly as it does on live.

The difference being that we might take trick shot or piercing shot (hoping those two talents get looked up) on a pure single target fight, or something like trick shot for pure clumped AoE.

[Aleksej89]

Return hunter utility, mobility and situational abilities back to WoD status.

Make sure every pet family actually has skills, because right now a lot of them do not.

Actually make DPS abilities, talents and rotations fun to use.

[DeicideUH]

this was just posted by Ornyx on the US PTR forums:

Thanks.

I'm not expecting anything big from Survival's traps. Will wait and see, hoping for the best.

Now, this is interesting:
Among other changes to help with this, Marked Shot no longer requires the targets to have Vulnerable to do strong damage, so builds without Sidewinders will be able to use it more effectively.

This is some of the things I expected them to do. I'm now hoping Aimed Shot and other talents get buffs, or else our Single Target will suffer even more.

[Avikur]

So based on what we know from the PTR and the blue post, what would the new rotation look like? As in will we be pooling focus (without over capping) waiting for a vulnerable proc to unload aimed shots and weaving marked shots in when that procs and Windburst on cool down to get a guaranteed vulnerable proc?

[Deleted]

Survival Hunter:
Survival's most notable addition is some new gameplay for traps. As all Hunters will once again have traps in 7.1.5, we want to make sure that Survival still feels like the master of traps. In particular, we want to restore the concept of baiting enemies into traps, as opposed to merely dropping them at their feet for an immediate effect. A new Survival passive will grant all your traps an added effect if an enemy is led into the trap after it is placed, encouraging you to anticipate the movement of an enemy, or coordinate with your tank in group content. Talents further enhance this, allowing you to increase the bonus in situations where you can reliably make use of it, or to use a new effect on Steel Trap to singlehandedly eliminate enemies who walk into it of their own accord.
:

that just sound awful imo

led them into it, like we have to do with binding short allready ? Im sure that will make SV really special, relying on the way the tank kites mobs for max dps/cc. and for pvp/arena, it will just end in the waiting game, hoping they come to you and dont just pull you out of them.

Besides, i really think just slaping traps onto mm and bm, instead of giving them their own set of utility, is a lame way of listening to the community (yes im aware alot of ppl just want the old hunter back, but in alot of cases thats the same ppl who complain about class fantasy but want a marksman throwing traps oO)

[Deleted]

It's funny how this thread doesn't even mention the other specs, but hey, parse numbers say all you need to know:
MM - the only actually played spec
BM - something for hobbyists like me
SV - a spec removed from the class entirely

[Feanoro]

It's funny how this thread doesn't even mention the other specs, but hey, parse numbers say all you need to know:
MM - the only actually played spec
BM - something for hobbyists like me
SV - a spec removed from the class entirely

MM wasmechanically the best and no one wants to play melee (aside from other melee rerolls). Artifact system locks you into one spec unless you care to grind out AP a second time. Not that there's any reason to do so, they're not exactly helping BM either. Maybe they'll learn from this shitshow and put talent trees back on the class, and not the weapon next time. Naaaah, not Actiblizz.

[Divinexve]

Just give us back wod chimera shot plz

[Khorneflake]

What's your experience with Hunters outside Sidewinders-Patiente Sniper combo? Shitty, isn't it? Well, that's the problem to begin with.

Well tbh I don't feel like I should be swapping talents constantly between bosses, a massive part of raiding is doing the encounter and managing the mechanics and, raiding aside, majority of content requires DPS and of course people want to do more.

I'm sure the casual player probably doesn't care about this sidewinder argument and patch 7.1.5 wont make a difference to them, what WoW doesn't need is community members spouting nonsense about having "choice" for every single talent row, you have choice, some are better than others, some are better in raids others in dungeons/questing etc.

The problem lies with how we regard talents, do they need to be offering choice within every piece of content? Or should they fit the type of content we are playing? I would say the latter, enjoy the games content for what it is offering and choose a build that suits it, in a raid for example we want optimal DPS regardless of whether or not it's "boring", raiding is "fun" regardless for many and we don't even have to think about our rotation. The DPS meters matter in a raid, it is a metric of measuring whether or not improvement is needed, and we are all striving to improve? Right? DPS kills bosses, raiders care about killing bosses.

But lets say I'm hungry and have a choice between whether I eat a delicious golden apple or a granny smith, the delicious golden apple looks appealing and certainly fits the apple "fruit identity" and I would expect this from a reputable fruit store, but I'm not in a fruit store, I'm in shitty corner shop because I have no time to spare (because I'm a gardener and pick herbs between my home and job) and I want something that does the job, I turn to the granny smith, it hits the taste buds so violently it's enough to make any vegan puke yet it sates me, I go home with a sour taste in my mouth but I'm no longer hungry, so I am happy.

Point I'm getting at is that there will ALWAYS be a granny smith talent setup, it will suit raiding or dungeons well and sure there may be 1 or 2 choices to make for certain bosses, it won't matter to the casual player what talents he/she picks because strict dps requirements are not in place for world quests or pet battles etc. Lets stop preaching to blizzard for viable choices in every talent row and drastic changes, because TBH this is whats creating these "death patches" and raiders are already too knee deep in AP to be swapping around every patch.

Change needs to be gradual, not completely revamping game play < 3 months in that should have been done in alpha/early beta (this coming from an ex-shadow priest).

[DeicideUH]

I'm sure the casual player probably doesn't care about this sidewinder argument and patch 7.1.5 wont make a difference to them, what WoW doesn't need is community members spouting nonsense about having "choice" for every single talent row, you have choice, some are better than others, some are better in raids others in dungeons/questing etc.

Some choices will always be better than others, but there shouldn't be choices that are plain wrong. MM right now is like having the following choice: you need pass a chasm. You have to choose between a broken bridge, a decrepit wooden bridge or to climb down and back up on the other side with your bare hands. That's no choice, the decrepit bridge is always the best choice.

It would be good if our choices were an helicopter, a car passing over a good bridge or an almost suicidal but cool as hell rocket that will just jump the distance. One of these is obviously the "best" choice (which one is up to you; some will choose the safest, others the coolest, and the rest will choose the most efficient one), but all of them allow you to cross the chasm.

[construkt]

All specs have a "correct" build and going outside of that for raiding is always going to be "wrong".

We have options, people choose not to use them.

You could drop lone wolf for single target fights and you wouldn't see a DPS loss at all. Do people do this? Not really. Doesn't mean the choice isn't there. True aim is the same.

Even black arrow has viability if you can game the resets, but people don't use it.

There are only 2 talent tiers where there are clear winners because they make the spec feel way better and allow us to do aoe.

Whining about them is what is killing the class.

[DeicideUH]

All specs have a "correct" build and going outside of that for raiding is always going to be "wrong".

We have options, people choose not to use them.

You could drop lone wolf for single target fights and you wouldn't see a DPS loss at all. Do people do this? Not really. Doesn't mean the choice isn't there. True aim is the same.

Even black arrow has viability if you can game the resets, but people don't use it.

There are only 2 talent tiers where there are clear winners because they make the spec feel way better and allow us to do aoe.

Whining about them is what is killing the class.

Oh, yes, whining about them, and not their horrible design, is killing the class.

[Deleted]

Its true though, removing Vuln from sidewinders is not only destroying out AoE, it also removes capable ST vuln uptime. I agree they somewhat compensated for it by increasing Aimed shot dmg done but comparing LIVE single target dps to PTR single target dps as a whole, PTR single target damage is slightly lower even than live + no AoE.

If they really want to gut Vulnerable debuff, fine. Make it 50% max or something, proc dependent to give have it actually give bonus damage (not mandatory), so remove it from windburst application, remove it from sidewinder application. All fine. Aimed shot does need a 100-150% damage increase ON TOP of the already buffed version though to make us god of ST instead of cleave.

We must be gods somewhere, since we bring NOTHING but numbers, nothing. No mobility, no utility, no heals, nothing at all. We only have numbers, we can`t just pop hero when its needed, we cant soulstone a healer or tank, we can`t polymoprh adds, cant do anything. Our numbers needs to be rocksolid.

[DeicideUH]

Its true though, removing Vuln from sidewinders is not only destroying out AoE, it also removes capable ST vuln uptime. I agree they somewhat compensated for it by increasing Aimed shot dmg done but comparing LIVE single target dps to PTR single target dps as a whole, PTR single target damage is slightly lower even than live + no AoE.

From what they said, it's clear they'll buff Marked Shot to not rely on Vulnerable, the change is just not in current build. If they do it, we will be fine in AoE. I'm very worried about Single Target, thought. No word on buffing Aimed Shot so far.

If they really want to gut Vulnerable debuff, fine. Make it 50% max or something, proc dependent to give have it actually give bonus damage (not mandatory), so remove it from windburst application, remove it from sidewinder application. All fine. Aimed shot does need a 100-150% damage increase ON TOP of the already buffed version though to make us god of ST instead of cleave.

I agree.

We must be gods somewhere, since we bring NOTHING but numbers, nothing. No mobility, no utility, no heals, nothing at all. We only have numbers, we can`t just pop hero when its needed, we cant soulstone a healer or tank, we can`t polymoprh adds, cant do anything. Our numbers needs to be rocksolid.

Very, very true.