Rets, what can we expect from patch 7.1.5?

[ThePants999]

call yourself lucky yesterday evening I´m the proud owner of sepzut´s but it goes nicely with justice gaze...

Were it not for the 7.1.5 changes, I'd consider myself pretty UNlucky. I've got Prydaz, Aggramar's Stride and Chain of Thrayn, three legendaries and not a single point of DPS increase in sight. (With only 13% haste, the Stride is basically just giving me the WoD cloak enchant back!) With the 7.1.5 changes, though, I will happily call myself lucky.

[stolker]

Just a question: The tooltip for chain of thrayn specifically refers to 25% during CRUSADE, whereas it refers to basic avenging wrath for holy and prot spec. is that an indicator that crusade will be made baseline for ret?

[Bormec]

I want to see improvements to our utility, especially off healing. I really miss Selfless Healer; we have traits that buff Flash of Light, but in 99% of most group PvE content, I never use it. Only like if shit is really, really hitting the fan. I also want to see some more consideration to our mobility, and for them to stop making us choose utility OR Cavalier; the change to Seal of Light now Judgement of Light is a step in the right direction, but it competes with Cavalier which then competes with Divine Intervention; you should choose talents that modify similar functions, not ones that forces functions to compete with each other.

Also would like to uncouple our ability to do good damage from the 50ish-second window that is Avenging Wrath. We should be stronger at a base level, with cooldowns giving an edge, not the whole knife. Mastery not being near-worthless would also be nice.

[ThePants999]

Also would like to uncouple our ability to do good damage from the 50ish-second window that is Avenging Wrath. We should be stronger at a base level, with cooldowns giving an edge, not the whole knife.

My head says I should agree with you, but my heart says I've never had as much fun with Ret as I'm having right now going absolutely insane every two minutes.

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Just a question: The tooltip for chain of thrayn specifically refers to 25% during CRUSADE, whereas it refers to basic avenging wrath for holy and prot spec. is that an indicator that crusade will be made baseline for ret?

The datamined tooltip I'm looking at has an AW 25/35 version that applies to holy, an AW 25/70 version that applies to prot and ret, and a Crusade 25/70 version that applies only if you've taken the talent.

[Deleted]

Were it not for the 7.1.5 changes, I'd consider myself pretty UNlucky. I've got Prydaz, Aggramar's Stride and Chain of Thrayn, three legendaries and not a single point of DPS increase in sight. (With only 13% haste, the Stride is basically just giving me the WoD cloak enchant back!) With the 7.1.5 changes, though, I will happily call myself lucky.

Aggramar is a dmg increase even if it doesn´t show in simcraft and greater numbers. Do you know why the cloak enchant was so mandatory? It was the increased uptime it allowed for. It´s nothing like the ring and the cloak but atleast on par with the bracers which allow you to park in shit and ignore mechanics. Count yourself lucky.
The neck takes pressure of your healers in most fights which in turn increase your survival rate which is never bad but agrred it is a pretty damn useless when everything goes according to plan
On the belt i can only congratulate you given that the buff to it stays.

[Romanesca]

AFAIK, if you get Dream of Ysera, you are automatically assigned to pool soaking , but I digress.
so you simply ignore mechanics , it is s small wonder you have no problems with Ret mobility.
I too had no problems with Ret mobility on my last week HXavius kill, as I simply tunneled him all the fight.


So, to sum it up: Ret mobility is fine as long as one of these conditions are met:
1. You don't PvP as Ret
2. You ignore mechanics that require movement or bypass them in any way
3. You don't Ret at all

The most frustrating thing for me as ret in PvP absolutely has to be frost mages and druids. Literally uncatchable and you get kited until you die of a brain aneurysm. Other than that, I think monks and demon hunters have too much escape capabilities in comparison, but I'm generally topping charts in damage and killing blows and not wanting to kill myself overall.

Also, the PvP talent that increases the duration of judgment is fantastic.

[ThePants999]

Aggramar is a dmg increase even if it doesn´t show in simcraft and greater numbers. Do you know why the cloak enchant was so mandatory? It was the increased uptime it allowed for. It´s nothing like the ring and the cloak but atleast on par with the bracers which allow you to park in shit and ignore mechanics. Count yourself lucky.
The neck takes pressure of your healers in most fights which in turn increase your survival rate which is never bad but agrred it is a pretty damn useless when everything goes according to plan

Alas, we're progressing on Cenarius M, which means that Aggramar is essentially useless (I'm on the boss the whole fight), and the neck is 100% useless, because there are no 5-second windows in which I don't take any damage (Ofc, that's getting better in 7.1.5 too.)

[Deleted]

Alas, we're progressing on Cenarius M, which means that Aggramar is essentially useless (I'm on the boss the whole fight), and the neck is 100% useless, because there are no 5-second windows in which I don't take any damage (Ofc, that's getting better in 7.1.5 too.)

look at it thisway with the boots you can clear one or 2 more bramble patches but jest the neck is an utter piece of shit i this fight^^

[Taeldorian]

look at it thisway with the boots you can clear one or 2 more bramble patches but jest the neck is an utter piece of shit i this fight^^

You own Sephuzs secret? I'd say that's really good especially for ret. Obviously not right now but it's really good in 7.1.5. 25% haste when you interrupt every 30 seconds? That's fantastic. It has good stats as well (crit is the main stat im going for atm). So eh, right now it's ass but pretty soon it'll be good.

[Omaski]

The most frustrating thing for me as ret in PvP absolutely has to be frost mages and druids. Literally uncatchable and you get kited until you die of a brain aneurysm. Other than that, I think monks and demon hunters have too much escape capabilities in comparison, but I'm generally topping charts in damage and killing blows and not wanting to kill myself overall.

Also, the PvP talent that increases the duration of judgment is fantastic.

i actually have alot of fun with the puesdo hammer of wrath talent on that last pvp talent tier....ive used it to get KBs on those mages/druids/hunters that only have like 50k hp left but are kiting me to hell

[Deleted]

Havoc DHs are meh at ST but absolutely insane at cleave/Aoe. Fury warriors are bad ST but have good Aoe, frost mages have bad ST (not sure about Aoe), ele shamans are bad at ST and good at Aoe, fire mages can be good at ST but if they get unlucky they'll drop really fast, but they have crazy Aoe. There's more as well but not going to go through everything.

Was kind of a bait, but well.
Havoc? One of the very best ST speccs in the game atm. Sure it is reliant to right legendaries to top parses, but what spec isn't?
Fury Warr are kind of shit overall from my experience. Weak aoe and weak ST. Obviously gonna get buffed.
Frost Mages are is really good, but because of 99% of mages running fire with corresponding legendaries, only a few mages got the correct gear setup for it.
Ele Shamans are just bad overall. Good aoe? lol not really if you compared to other top aoe speccs.
Fire mages have the strongest aoe in the game atm, and really good ST as well.

My point is; there is no class/specc that is niched into aoe and at the same time have awful ST. The other way around applies to some speccs (frost, feral, ret by some extent).

Oh and ret is not #1 dps specc in the game atm. Sure, we are VERY competetive with double bis legendary. But so are assass rogues, SP, Arms, Havoc.

Here is an example of logs for Guarm (M); https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/12#boss=1962

[Taeldorian]

Was kind of a bait, but well.
Havoc? One of the very best ST speccs in the game atm. Sure it is reliant to right legendaries to top parses, but what spec isn't?
Fury Warr are kind of shit overall from my experience. Weak aoe and weak ST. Obviously gonna get buffed.
Frost Mages are is really good, but because of 99% of mages running fire with corresponding legendaries, only a few mages got the correct gear setup for it.
Ele Shamans are just bad overall. Good aoe? lol not really if you compared to other top aoe speccs.
Fire mages have the strongest aoe in the game atm, and really good ST as well.

My point is; there is no class/specc that is niched into aoe and at the same time have awful ST. The other way around applies to some speccs (frost, feral, ret by some extent).

Oh and ret is not #1 dps specc in the game atm. Sure, we are VERY competetive with double bis legendary. But so are assass rogues, SP, Arms, Havoc.

Here is an example of logs for Guarm (M); https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/12#boss=1962

In all honesty it depends on what level of raiding your doing. If you raid with a heroic guild you may see different numbers throughout your guild. That's mainly what I'm talking about. Normal, heroic and mythic raiding will all yield different results based on your guild.

As for everything else, frost mages are bad ST and I'm not basing this on logs since there really aren't that many. Basing this on my guild and my own experience running mythic+ and EN. That's basically the only way to see how they're doing since nobody really plays one. It's either fire or arcane.

Ele shamans have good Aoe if you know how to play the class. I personally don't but Natoro (top ele sham on my realm) and a few others that are in the top 100 do and they do fine.

Fire mages have good ST if they get lucky. Have you seen a fire mage get unlucky? It's uncommon but if you have two fire mages and one gets a good amount of procs while the other doesn't you'll notice a gigantic difference. Most of the time they will have good ST but they are proc reliant.

I haven't seen too much of havoc DHs. So I most likely misspoke there.

As for fury warriors not sure why you brought that up. Still fits the basis of what I said.

I shouldn't have said awful. I think mediocre fits better. Some specs have good Aoe and mediocre ST and some have good ST and mediocre Aoe. Nothing is really awful though.

[Deleted]

In all honesty it depends on what level of raiding your doing. If you raid with a heroic guild you may see different numbers throughout your guild. That's mainly what I'm talking about. Normal, heroic and mythic raiding will all yield different results based on your guild.

As for everything else, frost mages are bad ST and I'm not basing this on logs since there really aren't that many. Basing this on my guild and my own experience running mythic+ and EN. That's basically the only way to see how they're doing since nobody really plays one. It's either fire or arcane.

Ele shamans have good Aoe if you know how to play the class. I personally don't but Natoro (top ele sham on my realm) and a few others that are in the top 100 do and they do fine.

Fire mages have good ST if they get lucky. Have you seen a fire mage get unlucky? It's uncommon but if you have two fire mages and one gets a good amount of procs while the other doesn't you'll notice a gigantic difference. Most of the time they will have good ST but they are proc reliant.

I haven't seen too much of havoc DHs. So I most likely misspoke there.

As for fury warriors not sure why you brought that up. Still fits the basis of what I said.

I shouldn't have said awful. I think mediocre fits better. Some specs have good Aoe and mediocre ST and some have good ST and mediocre Aoe. Nothing is really awful though.

It has nothing to do with the level of raiding. You are basing your conclusions of subjective opinions from people in your guild. Skill level tend to alter a lot in heroic raiding guilds. Hence referring to "X is good at that, Y is better at that" is totally misleading on forums like these. That is why looking at logs are better (even though you must take them with a grain of salt, since top parses usually occur when all stars align, but it gives you and idea). Simulating your character also gives you a better picture.

The thing is, if you compare mythic raiding guilds, the DPS numbers for classes have much lower delta and this is where you really see if a class excels or not. A prime example is the Havoc or SP which tend to fluctuate a lot more then other dps speccs for less skilled player at same ilvl.

You can't just say "Frost mages are bad ST" while basing that on your own anecdotal experience. I am basing my argument from simulated data. Frost is good with this current build on single target. Not controversial. Obviously this may change in the future, as anything else.

Peace

[Deleted]

It's not pure numbers that needs fixing atm. Anyways numbers can always be turned around with a hotfix. What we really want is talent and trait reworking to make the class more appealing and have some niche. So many nice ideas here by people that just enjoy play this game whereas blizzard employees only come with a handful and most of the time awful ones.

[Matrlx]

dreams are dreams, soon we will have nightmares
WaDDUP!!

[Deleted]

@Arctic don´t fall for him I tried arguing with him several times after the "DH is bad on ST" I just tried to ignore him

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You own Sephuzs secret? I'd say that's really good especially for ret. Obviously not right now but it's really good in 7.1.5. 25% haste when you interrupt every 30 seconds? That's fantastic. It has good stats as well (crit is the main stat im going for atm). So eh, right now it's ass but pretty soon it'll be good.

ok I will take the bait. Please tell me which boss requires interrupting on a 30 second interval? But I´m pretty darn sure the ring will help me pushing the necessary DPS on guram in (hopefully) 2 weeks.
That said the stats are nice but if I had to choose for another stat stick legendary after the helmet I would have had chosen a different one.

[Taeldorian]

@Arctic don´t fall for him I tried arguing with him several times after the "DH is bad on ST" I just tried to ignore him

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ok I will take the bait. Please tell me which boss requires interrupting on a 30 second interval? But I´m pretty darn sure the ring will help me pushing the necessary DPS on guram in (hopefully) 2 weeks.
That said the stats are nice but if I had to choose for another stat stick legendary after the helmet I would have had chosen a different one.

Lol says the Storm echo chamber.

You tried saying we're bad at Aoe. That's not even remotely close to how things are. But of course, if there's nothing negative to talk about you gotta find something even if it doesn't make sense because you lack the creativity of a certain poster. The proof is there. Maybe I was wrong and we aren't good at gigantic burst Aoe like fire mages, but we pull good numbers. Hell there's even streams you can go check out (Quinrat for one) that show our Aoe isn't bad at all. It's not insane like I said originally, but it's still good. Obviously we need to take zeal, but complaining about needing to switch talents has to be one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.

Like even Icy Veins (guide written by Fardion, a top ret pally) says we do decent in the Aoe scene.


As for the ring, I guess you don't realize just how important mythic+ is eh? That's where we are going to get a majority of our gear come nighthold because a ton of things in NH have awful stats. There is hardly ever anything you don't interrupt in mythic+.

For now though just gonna put you on ignore. First one to go there but there's already one negative Nancy in here but at least said poster has creativity. I also don't like to argue with people who continuously say negative shit just to be negative when they're completely wrong. Gets boring after a while mate.

[Deleted]

Lol says the Storm echo chamber.

FYI Storm is the cynic while I am the salty one.

You tried saying we're bad at Aoe. That's not even remotely close to how things are. But of course, if there's nothing negative to talk about you gotta find something even if it doesn't make sense because you lack the creativity of a certain poster. The proof is there. Maybe I was wrong and we aren't good at gigantic burst Aoe like fire mages, but we pull good numbers. Hell there's even streams you can go check out (Quinrat for one) that show our Aoe isn't bad at all. It's not insane like I said originally, but it's still good.

don´t challenge me to really put effort into finding things I can be salty about you don´t want your rose tinted goggles to be stripped of you. We pull ok numbers when talented for AOE but nothing to be proud of, your usual m+ 8 (and upward) comp will leave you solidly behind.

Obviously we need to take zeal, but complaining about needing to switch talents has to be one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.

"Obviously we need to take zeal" is my new favorite BS comment.
1. it hits 3 targets max (which leaves it as a cleave talent)
2. which talent to chose heavily depends on your actual gear
3. you have to take group composition and pull strategy in mind

I did not complain about having to specc for AOE I complained about other classes getting more for doing so while at the same time losing less on ST compared to us.

As for the ring, I guess you don't realize just how important mythic+ is eh? That's where we are going to get a majority of our gear come nighthold because a ton of things in NH have awful stats. There is hardly ever anything you don't interrupt in mythic+.

I specifically stated that am looking at raids not at m+. I do m+ as a necessary evil since as you rightly put it our best gear comes from dungeons but I rather take 895 haste/mastery item from nighthold than spending 5 hours on our of raid nights hunting for that war/titanforged m+ item. Even if you might not believe it, I do have a life to balance.
Fun Fact: once you have the Elysandre trinket you won´t use your on use trinkets anymore so even less reason to run 30 or 40 wardens m+

[Taeldorian]

FYI Storm is the cynic while I am the salty one.



don´t challenge me to really put effort into finding things I can be salty about you don´t want your rose tinted goggles to be stripped of you. We pull ok numbers when talented for AOE but nothing to be proud of, your usual m+ 8 (and upward) comp will leave you solidly behind.



"Obviously we need to take zeal" is my new favorite BS comment.
1. it hits 3 targets max (which leaves it as a cleave talent)
2. which talent to chose heavily depends on your actual gear
3. you have to take group composition and pull strategy in mind

I did not complain about having to specc for AOE I complained about other classes getting more for doing so while at the same time losing less on ST compared to us.



I specifically stated that am looking at raids not at m+. I do m+ as a necessary evil since as you rightly put it our best gear comes from dungeons but I rather take 895 haste/mastery item from nighthold than spending 5 hours on our of raid nights hunting for that war/titanforged m+ item. Even if you might not believe it, I do have a life to balance.
Fun Fact: once you have the Elysandre trinket you won´t use your on use trinkets anymore so even less reason to run 30 or 40 wardens m+

Uh no, there are plenty of Ret Paladins that do mythic 8+ and above. Want some names? Shouldice, Quinrat, myself, Solsacra, and I can guarantee a few posters in here don't get declined for 8+. If you're getting declined that's on you, I do my daily 9-10 every week with no issue as many many other ret Paladins do.

So, im sorry mate. I'd much rather listen to the guy who writes Ret paladin guides and knows the in and outs of the spec over the random poster on MMO-champ who claims we'll be left behind in any form of mythic 8+ and claims our Aoe is "ok" when the ret paladin guide writer states that it's actually decent while our ST is excellent. Not only that but I've watched streams of rets doing 8+ and higher, I've done it myself and I'm damn sure I can name a few posters in here who have as well.

Oh, and I have no idea where you got the rose tinted goggles thing from. Another useless argument that has no basis aside from just being negative? Looks like it. I don't follow legacy BS and I focus on current WoW, not past iterations.

[Morally Grey Storm]

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