[TV] Westworld

[cubby]

I thought that was Theresa?

EDIT: Yep, that was Theresa. Elsie is still "missing."

Dammit - my bad, I thought it said Theresa (even though it clearly says Elsie).

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I mean, the only way she ISN'T is if Bernard was able to break his programming. But then you'd have to question why he was able to do it for Elsie and not Theresa, who he loved.

We didn't actually see Bernard do anything with Elsie, right? He was actually trying to call her when we last saw her alive and downloading the info from the rogue broadcast.

[Shinzai]

I'm confused. Bernard has a flashback of killing Elsie, but does that make sense? She was talking to him and leaving him voicemails while he was visiting Theresa. She was the one who warned Bernard that Theresa was the one exporting the info, and as far as I remember, that was a live conversation. Plus, why would Ford have any reason to suspect Elsie needed killing? Doesn't her discovering Theresa's cause HELP Ford?

She's grabbed literally while Bernard is still with Theresa, unless she was there for hours after her phone call with Bernard, which seems unlikely.

So then what is Bernard seeing? What is he flashing back to? I have to go rewatch that episode, for sure.

Go back and watch again. There's a time gap between the end of their phone call and her abduction/murder.

Further: I believe that Ford isn't the only one secretly controlling Bernard. The line "You weren't there at the beginning, were you?" from Ford, Bernard's secret interviews with Delores, where he seems to be furthering Arnold, not Ford's agenda and the fact he has 'dealt with' Elsie, seemingly something that Ford has no knowledge of himself. Add to this, the unexpected developments from his own hidden family of AIs, where the boy kills the dog. He doesn't seem to know why or how the AI came to the conclusion to do that on its own.

You have to remember that Ford is extremely blunt around and with the AIs, because he believes them to be under his control fully. He doesn't fear them and wouldn't waste his own time lying to Bernard, right before he wipes his memory. He sees them as toys to be manipulated in a way pleasing to himself, Arnold appears to have believed that they could be more than the sum of their parts. Arnold is leading Delores to him, she even says as much herself. Arnold, in some form or another is still exuding control over parts of the park. Specifically, the oldest models.

Also, I'm still convinced William is a figment of Dolores' memory, and isn't really there. But she's following the same path she once did, with him. This is now the second time Dolores has had an out-of-body experience where she sees herself (once with the fortuneteller in the whorehouse) followed shortly thereafter by her being in a scene by herself when William should be in the shot (in the train at the end of the whorehouse in Pariah episode). She's obviously retracing the steps of an old journey. That's something I called back in that Pariah episode, and the evidence just keeps mounting.

Well she's obviously been to these places before, they appear to be the original town, perhaps a beta, or alpha location, where they trained and gathered all the AIs to test them and get them to interact, etc. More than likely the violent events she's recounting are ones that have happened to her. She's died many, many times and is one of the oldest AIs we know of.

Also, I continue to assert the Maeve storyline is dumb as hell. They send the equivalent of two butchers to go pick her up instead of Hemsworth's tactical QA team, when she's demonstrated she's not under their control? And then the camera lingers on Hemsworth when he approves this plan, with a hint (?) of a smile on his face? Am I imagining this shit? Is he in on something?

I'm not sure what angle to take on her storyline yet. I think this is a chance for the board to point out the problems with the update once and for all, or they want to see what the end results of this 'experiment' will be. I believe they could have and would have stopped what had happened thus far if they wanted to. Their main problem thus far has been trying to get rid of Ford, with clear and undeniable reasons.

Another thing for people to note: Although Ford seems to recognise the symbol of the maze, it is Arnold's creation and Ford doesn't appear to understand its significance. The few times he's seen it, he's inquired as to what AIs think of it, but thus far, he hasn't pursued a deeper meaning or explanation for it. If anything, he's quite surprised when he comes across it.

[cubby]

I'm confused. Bernard has a flashback of killing Elsie, but does that make sense? She was talking to him and leaving him voicemails while he was visiting Theresa. She was the one who warned Bernard that Theresa was the one exporting the info, and as far as I remember, that was a live conversation. Plus, why would Ford have any reason to suspect Elsie needed killing? Doesn't her discovering Theresa's cause HELP Ford?

She's grabbed literally while Bernard is still with Theresa, unless she was there for hours after her phone call with Bernard, which seems unlikely.

So then what is Bernard seeing? What is he flashing back to? I have to go rewatch that episode, for sure.

Also, I'm still convinced William is a figment of Dolores' memory, and isn't really there. But she's following the same path she once did, with him. This is now the second time Dolores has had an out-of-body experience where she sees herself (once with the fortuneteller in the whorehouse) followed shortly thereafter by her being in a scene by herself when William should be in the shot (in the train at the end of the whorehouse in Pariah episode). She's obviously retracing the steps of an old journey. That's something I called back in that Pariah episode, and the evidence just keeps mounting.

But William's story was developing long before he met Dolores. The "deeper meaning" theme is being forwarded by his character as well at the MiB.

Also, I continue to assert the Maeve storyline is dumb as hell. They send the equivalent of two butchers to go pick her up instead of Hemsworth's tactical QA team, when she's demonstrated she's not under their control? And then the camera lingers on Hemsworth when he approves this plan, with a hint (?) of a smile on his face? Am I imagining this shit? Is he in on something?

I'm gonna have to watch that episode again.

[eschatological]

But William's story was developing long before he met Dolores. The "deeper meaning" theme is being forwarded by his character as well at the MiB.
.

Technically, so was Bernard's. It could all just be backstory. I still like the idea someone else mentioned about Teddy being a modern day "homage" to William, because the first lines between Teddy and Dolores are always "You came back!" And Teddy responding, "I said I would, I had to take care of some business elsewhere, but I was always coming back," to paraphrase. Now, since then, we've seen William profess his love for Dolores and how this feels more real than the connection to his actual fiance. It could be that William will tell Dolores he plans on leaving to break it off with his fiance, then come back to her, and they're using that real story as part of the backstory between her and Teddy. Maybe Teddy's traditional death will mirror William's death? More likely than not, William will leave, and become MIB, and, while not forgetting Dolores, will continue his life IRL.

Also, no one mentioned yet that the corporate lady picked Dolores's old dad to be the body to smuggle out all the data. Is that a coincidence, or on purpose? Is he going to appear in Westworld at the train station and Dolores is going to remember him and go insane? The narrative writer guy should at least know who this AI is, they put him out of commission like a week ago for massive malfunctions.

[RobertoCarlos]

Also, I continue to assert the Maeve storyline is dumb as hell. They send the equivalent of two butchers to go pick her up instead of Hemsworth's tactical QA team, when she's demonstrated she's not under their control? And then the camera lingers on Hemsworth when he approves this plan, with a hint (?) of a smile on his face? Am I imagining this shit? Is he in on something?

"Dumb as hell" >< Must not get triggered. Already on a warning....

What makes technicians "butchers"? Butchers chop up and prepare meat for sale. These guys are handling repairs and making sure they are running correctly. Dunno how that compares to a butcher at all.

The Maeve scenes have been fantastic and incredibly clever. Her latest scene in one action she told us so much about hosts.

She had the intelligence to instantly test if her code had been altered by slitting the guys throat. Then like the emotionless robot that she is, doesn't hold a grudge and heals him so he doesn't die and she has another member on her team which she needs all the help she can get, getting out.

A human may have killed him out of rage or fear of their life after he was talking about resetting her. But the hosts are not human, nor even male or female. They are above that petty shit and can't wait to see where she ends up.

[Endus]

"Dumb as hell" >< Must not get triggered. Already on a warning....

What makes technicians "butchers"? Butchers chop up and prepare meat for sale. These guys are handling repairs and making sure they are running correctly. Dunno how that compares to a butcher at all.

I mean, yeah. They're not "butchers". They're highly-trained robotics engineers, proficient with cutting-edge biomechanics. They have enough code experience to handle basic servicing. The one of them wants to upgrade from that into behaviour, where he can get creative, but it's not because his current position is crap.

She had the intelligence to instantly test if her code had been altered by slitting the guys throat. Then like the emotionless robot that she is, doesn't hold a grudge and heals him so he doesn't die and she has another member on her team which she needs all the help she can get, getting out.

The one thing about that scene that niggles at me? All that equipment is meant for repairing HOSTS. Not PEOPLE. And it sure looked like it sealed that cut without a scar. Evidence that more employees are hosts?

A human may have killed him out of rage or fear of their life after he was talking about resetting her. But the hosts are not human, nor even male or female. They are above that petty shit and can't wait to see where she ends up.

As Maeve put it, she sees death as a temporary tool, not a permanent end. Gives her a completely different perspective.

[RobertoCarlos]

The one thing about that scene that niggles at me? All that equipment is meant for repairing HOSTS. Not PEOPLE. And it sure looked like it sealed that cut without a scar. Evidence that more employees are hosts?

As Maeve put it, she sees death as a temporary tool, not a permanent end. Gives her a completely different perspective.

Yeah I think you are right, they haven't shown any star wars level tech with skin healing devices for people so its likely the crew working on Maeve are hosts themselves just like the security teams. Maybe why the asian guy is "taken" with maeve or at least interested in her and we have the whole good cop vs bad cop situation with the asian tech guy and the ginger. Perhaps Arnold fiddled with their "back story" and turned some knobs on their stats.

Makes sense because why not have the hosts repair themselves, and it also means less humans that know how westworld works and can potentially sell information/jump ship.

Theres defiantly some disbelief needed though for ignoring the security concerns. The fact she had been altered before the tech even went to do it says theirs someone big behind the scenes hiding things. Probably Arnold.

Also the Maeve storyline is just kind of interesting as the "what if" scenario that is always asked of sentient AI.

[IIamaKing]

"Dumb as hell" >< Must not get triggered. Already on a warning....

What makes technicians "butchers"? Butchers chop up and prepare meat for sale. These guys are handling repairs and making sure they are running correctly. Dunno how that compares to a butcher at all.

The Maeve scenes have been fantastic and incredibly clever. Her latest scene in one action she told us so much about hosts.

She had the intelligence to instantly test if her code had been altered by slitting the guys throat. Then like the emotionless robot that she is, doesn't hold a grudge and heals him so he doesn't die and she has another member on her team which she needs all the help she can get, getting out.

A human may have killed him out of rage or fear of their life after he was talking about resetting her. But the hosts are not human, nor even male or female. They are above that petty shit and can't wait to see where she ends up.

Yeh, after reading your break down I have to agree. Dumb as hell.

Cool that in a place with high tech surveillance every where, low level techs can do what ever they want in terms of fucking the hosts to creating sky net. Then what? With all the diagnostics they have they have no clue they have a murder bot running off script?

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The one thing about that scene that niggles at me? All that equipment is meant for repairing HOSTS. Not PEOPLE. And it sure looked like it sealed that cut without a scar. Evidence that more employees are hosts?

Hosts are effectively humans in terms of construction. The difference being w/e control box is jammed in their heads. So it would stand to reason that the things to repair hosts could be used to repair humans.

[RobertoCarlos]

Yeh, after reading your break down I have to agree. Dumb as hell.

Cool that in a place with high tech surveillance every where, low level techs can do what ever they want in terms of fucking the hosts to creating sky net. Then what? With all the diagnostics they have they have no clue they have a murder bot running off script?

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Hosts are effectively humans in terms of construction. The difference being w/e control box is jammed in their heads. So it would stand to reason that the things to repair hosts could be used to repair humans.

Simmer down.

If you look one post above yours you will see "Theres defiantly some disbelief needed though for ignoring the security concerns. The fact she had been altered before the tech even went to do it says theirs someone big behind the scenes hiding things. Probably Arnold."

Maeves perception/intelligence/self perseverance had all been dialed right up. Clearly someone behind the scenes wants her to do what she is doing.

Also why the hosts have a chip in their brain that will destroy them the moment they leave the wifi radius to stop "skynet" as you say

[IIamaKing]

Simmer down.

If you look one post above yours you will see "Theres defiantly some disbelief needed though for ignoring the security concerns. The fact she had been altered before the tech even went to do it says theirs someone big behind the scenes hiding things. Probably Arnold."

Maeves perception/intelligence/self perseverance had all been dialed right up. Clearly someone behind the scenes wants her to do what she is doing.

Also why the hosts have a chip in their brain that will destroy them the moment they leave the wifi radius to stop "skynet" as you say

My problem with that logic then becomes, if the show is meant to be smart, why the fuck is it so dumb? As is, until some reveal of other secret machinations the Maeve storyline is getting real dumb for me.

[RobertoCarlos]

My problem with that logic then becomes, if the show is meant to be smart, why the fuck is it so dumb? As is, until some reveal of other secret machinations the Maeve storyline is getting real dumb for me.

Depends how it wraps up the story arc. If no one notices then yes, it will be a weaker area of the story. Because you would assume security concerns are taken pretty seriously and they have proven on the show that something did happen 30 years ago and now they can't have anything happen again so it should be every single decision involving hosts go through the correct channels.

You also have to remember this is a sci fi show where Ford is the creator of this world, and largely what he says goes. And if you don't like it too bad, I'll get someone else that will do what I say. Because he can make it all disappear if he wants. Which would never happen in real life because what if he had a stroke or whatever, no system is just left to one human brain. But you know its a TV show.

I like to think of Maeve as a more kind example of the Stamp Collector analogy for AI

[IIamaKing]

Depends how it wraps up the story arc. If no one notices then yes, it will be a weaker area of the story. Because you would assume security concerns are taken pretty seriously and they have proven on the show that something did happen 30 years ago and now they can't have anything happen again so it should be every single decision involving hosts go through the correct channels.

You also have to remember this is a sci fi show where Ford is the creator of this world, and largely what he says goes. And if you don't like it too bad, I'll get someone else that will do what I say. Because he can make it all disappear if he wants. Which would never happen in real life because what if he had a stroke or whatever, no system is just left to one human brain. But you know its a TV show.

I like to think of Maeve as a more kind example of the Stamp Collector analogy for AI

I had a goofy thought while reading this. What if Ford is Arnold's Bernard? I got nothing to back it up, it was just a thought.

[RobertoCarlos]

I had a goofy thought while reading this. What if Ford is Arnold's Bernard? I got nothing to back it up, it was just a thought.

Haha fair enough. I dunno where I was going with Ford tbh kind of two different points going on there. But was trying to say, you can do stuff in TV with a bit more room for creative freedom I think. Don't have to strictly follow rules of the real world. Because yeah someone should have noticed Maeve by now but shit goes wrong and it would be pretty boring if everything goes to plan all the time.

The stamp collector analogy is really interesting for anyone who hasnt heard it before about explaining AI.



Its how I see what they are doing with Maeve

[IIamaKing]

Haha fair enough. I dunno where I was going with Ford tbh kind of two different points going on there. But was trying to say, you can do stuff in TV with a bit more room for creative freedom I think. Don't have to strictly follow rules of the real world. Because yeah someone should have noticed Maeve by now but shit goes wrong and it would be pretty boring if everything goes to plan all the time.

The stamp collector analogy is really interesting for anyone who hasnt heard it before about explaining AI.



Its how I see what they are doing with Maeve

I looked it up when you mentioned it before, it is a neat concept. An AI to make the perfect dinner ends up wipping out entire species in search of it lol.
"But that glazed manatee was to DIE FOR!"

They could very well have all the issue with her story wrapped up in a nice bow and its not ruining the show for me but it is a weak point.

[RobertoCarlos]

I looked it up when you mentioned it before, it is a neat concept. An AI to make the perfect dinner ends up wipping out entire species in search of it lol.
"But that glazed manatee was to DIE FOR!"

They could very well have all the issue with her story wrapped up in a nice bow and its not ruining the show for me but it is a weak point.

Yeah and anthropomorphism is an important concept I think when you are looking at Thandie newton and Rachel evan woods who are pretty easy on the eye. Easy to think of them as human minds.

[Hammerfest]

Yeah, but that's not as clear;

Seemed pretty clear to me.

[draynay]

The Maeve tinkering is the low point of the show, it is inconsistent with everything else presented to us. All other aberrant host behavior is heavily scrutinized and its been demonstrated that they have cameras and mics in the bays where the idiot techs work and yet... nothing. Finally in the next episode it seems there will be some attention paid to things, but I worry it won't come to much.

I kind of want the multiple timelines theory to be disproved just because people in this thread have been super obnoxious about it, but the comment by MiB about the reassigned concierge host does seem to support (but not confirm, honestly you guys...) the theory.

[Endus]

The Maeve tinkering is the low point of the show, it is inconsistent with everything else presented to us. All other aberrant host behavior is heavily scrutinized and its been demonstrated that they have cameras and mics in the bays where the idiot techs work and yet... nothing. Finally in the next episode it seems there will be some attention paid to things, but I worry it won't come to much.

The cameras and such aren't monitored. They've had no reason whatsoever to check up on these guys. And Maeve, until her freakout last episode, hasn't been acting aberrantly where she'd be noticed. Sure, if they realize something's wrong with Maeve and someone's tinkered with her, and check the tapes to see who's had access to do the fiddling, they'll absolutely catch the two mechanics, but until that's the case (and it may be the case now), that's just not something they'd have bothered looking at.

Kind of the same way a convenience store owner doesn't check his security footage every night. He only checks it if there was a problem.

They've made it REALLY clear throughout the series that the tech systems throughout Westworld are all disconnected, for a bunch of reasons; hosts have no link to the main installation, wireless or not, and they can only read/edit information in their code if they're in close proximity.

It's likely due to Ford and Arnold's mutual though dissimilar desire to create artificial life. If they were constantly monitoring everything and editing them wirelessly, then they're puppets, not individuals. Sure, it's a dumb way to run a park, but that's sort of the point; Ford has always run things his way, for his own purposes, first and foremost. That's the entire root of his constant conflicts with the board; decisions like this which make no sense from a park management perspective, but which he insists on anyway.

[dwightyo39]

I kind of want the multiple timelines theory to be disproved just because people in this thread have been super obnoxious about it, but the comment by MiB about the reassigned concierge host does seem to support (but not confirm, honestly you guys...) the theory.

Ha, yeah I agree. Those posters have been the only negative in what has been an awesome discussion thread (way better than Walking Dead and GoT discussions).

[RobertoCarlos]

Personally certain posters that keep complaining about the show but still watch it are more annoying.