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  1. #781
    885 ilvl required to down a boss that drops 890. It's a joke.
    Finbez
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological
    if only WoW had come out when I was a teenager. Back then online gaming consisted of text-based MUDs....I could type "kill orc" faster than any of my competition, brosephs, and played a mean giantman cleric.

  2. #782
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    TOV is overtuned for its intended audience - there is no way that low to mid skill players in 850 gear are killing anything in there. Theres no way mid skill players in 860 gear are clearing heroic, either.

    Its overtuned.
    You can probably make the same argument for Karazhan. People in 850-855 gear are the ones who actually benefit from the baseline gear, but it's quite difficult if you attempt to do it at that level. If you bring in one or two 870+ people it shifts the balance and makes some of the fights considerably easier, but a group of, say, ilvl 850 alts is going to struggle.

    Anybody who is ilvl 850 on their main is probably not a very serious player and consequently will likely have *even more* trouble, but at the same time, I think it's fine to have some content aimed at the top tier of players.

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    TOV is overtuned for its intended audience
    I'm starting to feel you're just trolling at this point. A human being seldom can be this dense.

    The progression for, as you say, "mid skill players" is as follows, I'll repeat myself:
    NormalEN -- HeroicEN -- NormalToV -- Heroic ToV. Players of "high skill"(by your definition i guess) have Mythic EN and Mythic ToV in the mix and can do Heroic ToV Straight after HeroicEN.

    There is no world where a guild of people, who cleared Heroic EN multiple times and has the gear to show for it (860+. but usually 870ish) cannot clear a normal ToV in a few cooldowns.

    Do ToV's rewards feel undertuned in terms of difficulty? They do, most of the time.

    Stop clinging to names, you sound delusional. Normal ToV is by no means a continuation of Normal EN. Much like you don't expect a group of people in, say 835, who are able to topple a Mythic dungeon of any kind to go straight to beating the crap out of Mythic return to Karazhan.

    man, someone beat me to a Kara comparison
    Last edited by Tang0; 2016-11-22 at 06:37 PM. Reason: too slow

  4. #784
    Not sure why people worry about how tuned it is, this is the only thing we have to do until Nighthold. If it takes some time... that's probably for the best anyhow.

  5. #785
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tang0 View Post
    I'm starting to feel you're just trolling at this point. A human being seldom can be this dense.
    No, i' just measuring blizzards raid against their openly stated design goal for those raids.

    Therefore, tov is overtuned. On normal, at any rate.
    The progression for, as you say, "mid skill players" is as follows, I'll repeat myself:
    NormalEN -- HeroicEN -- NormalToV -- Heroic ToV. Players of "high skill"(by your definition i guess) have Mythic EN and Mythic ToV in the mix and can do Heroic ToV Straight after HeroicEN.
    Sure. it should be normal - normal - normal - normal if that's all you want to do. Currently it isn't because Tov normal is overtuned.
    There is no world where a guild of people, who cleared Heroic EN multiple times and has the gear to show for it (860+. but usually 870ish) cannot clear a normal ToV in a few cooldowns.
    Sure. But Tov normal should be clearable in 850 gear by bad players. it isn't. Because its overtuned.
    Do ToV's rewards feel undertuned in terms of difficulty? They do, most of the time.
    Yes, its overtuned.

    Stop clinging to names, you sound delusional. Normal ToV is by no means a continuation of Normal EN. Much like you don't expect a group of people in, say 835, who are able to topple a Mythic dungeon of any kind to go straight to beating the crap out of Mythic return to Karazhan.

    man, someone beat me to a Kara comparison
    Yes, kara it is easy to argue is also overtuned. Only slightly though.

    So to recap - normal ToV, a 3 boss raid that should be doable in under 6 wipes by players who have done normal EN only and who don't min max or kick baddies is overtuned.

  6. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    But Tov normal should be clearable in 850 gear by bad players. it isn't. Because its overtuned.

    normal ToV, a 3 boss raid that should be doable in under 6 wipes by players who have done normal EN only and who don't min max or kick baddies
    So by your logic, EN should be doable in under 6 wipes by bad players in 835-840 (same ilvl diff as in ToV) gear, otherwise it's overtuned.

    For some reason i hardly believe you, as a player, and your raid would be able to do it.

    Ergo, by your logic, EN is overtuned. Emerald Nightmare. Overtuned
    (said no one ever)

    It's easier to reason with a cactus. I'm out.

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by ohlins View Post
    Normal and HC content is aimed at people that don't want to spend 4 to, maybe, 8 hours a week on figuring out on how to break that brick wall they ran in to. And they certainly don't want to come back to try 2 resets later because they are geared better and have a higher chance, like raiding used to be...
    Despite being on the side believing that ToV is clearly overtuned, I'd say that if you don't want to spend 4 hours in a full week figuring how to down a boss in a raid that has been released the previous week, you have no fucking place in Heroic. Or you just confused HC and LFR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    It should be killable at 850ish ilvl in about 6 pulls, with grandma and two drunks.
    Same as above. It's "normal", not "LFR".
    Though at least you're right it should be doable in 850ish ilvl.
    But you're ridiculous if you consider "6 pulls with a bunch of idiots" as something expected for normal.
    Last edited by Akka; 2016-11-22 at 07:46 PM.

  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Not sure why people worry about how tuned it is, this is the only thing we have to do until Nighthold. If it takes some time... that's probably for the best anyhow.
    Well yea if you neglect to mention Nighthold is already finished and ready to go and it's delay is only an excuse for blizzard to stretch out content more because they can't handle properly supporting an expansion past release.

  9. #789
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Trial of valor is tuned for ppl who have 35th artifact trait
    and tuned for the best dps specs, like keep stacking fotm best dps if you take tons of the weaker dps you'll just never make the dps checks on mythic, again blizzard following their moto bring the class not the player.

    if guess if you can't design hard content just make 50% of the specs really bad for content and give bosses way too much fucking hp.

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    and tuned for the best dps specs, like keep stacking fotm best dps if you take tons of the weaker dps you'll just never make the dps checks on mythic, again blizzard following their moto bring the class not the player.

    if guess if you can't design hard content just make 50% of the specs really bad for content and give bosses way too much fucking hp.
    Wait wait wait, I thought that it was Vanilla who had broken spec unable to compete ?

  11. #791
    I'm not certain about Heroic, but Normal is definitely too hard. It's the friends and family difficulty, definitely not progression oriented beyond the basic mechanics; at least, it's what I remember from BRF, HFC and EN. But in ToV, you're going to have a very hard time doing N ToV with a group that doesn't overgear the content. I cleared it with a pug, but literally everyone was 870+, so of course it was pretty easy that time. I tried with a circa 860 pug and it was much, much harder. We got Odyn after 2 hours, shattered on Guarm, and would absolutely never have downed Helya.

    The ilvl bump helped to define ToV's place in the raid ladder, but I still feel Normal should have been easier, and Heroic being harder than most of Mythic EN is a bit ridiculous too.

  12. #792
    Immortal Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Sure.

    I thought it was the perfect antidote to highmaul, but En being undertuned really doesn't excuse TOV being this much of a clusterfuck. its nowhere near naxx 10 level, its more like 2 horridons and a durumu. ;p
    I have not started heroic progression yet but Normal is not tuned that difficult. DPS and Healing checks are fairly low. The problem is there's lots of mechanics for each boss and people are failing at some fairly simple mechanics. Guarm starts running around....stand there are get smushed?!?! I think people go in assuming it's going to be a pushover and complain when a mechanic kills them.

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  13. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I'm not certain about Heroic, but Normal is definitely too hard. It's the friends and family difficulty, definitely not progression oriented beyond the basic mechanics; at least, it's what I remember from BRF, HFC and EN. But in ToV, you're going to have a very hard time doing N ToV with a group that doesn't overgear the content. I cleared it with a pug, but literally everyone was 870+, so of course it was pretty easy that time. I tried with a circa 860 pug and it was much, much harder. We got Odyn after 2 hours, shattered on Guarm, and would absolutely never have downed Helya.

    The ilvl bump helped to define ToV's place in the raid ladder, but I still feel Normal should have been easier, and Heroic being harder than most of Mythic EN is a bit ridiculous too.
    I agree with the fact that heroic helya is more difficult than half of en mythic, but I don't agree with the expectation that normal mode is intended to be yolo faceroll. As if the "friend and family" difficulty means it has to be so easy it is meant for elementary children to accomplish. As if there is an assumption that friends and family casual players are complete idiots and incompetent and cannot handle even the slightest bit of difficulty. This is the first raid in awhile that the "normal" difficulty actual forces casual players to think about mechanics instead of play each mechanic off like lfr and barely learn the fight or their character to the point the bosses would die, and not even by that much. Lfr is there for a reason if you do not want to learn mechanics, play your character to its potential, or want to spend any time progressing.

    As for the loot, well there isn't a whole lot of good things that drop there beyond Helya for me so I don't have an opinion, although a normal mode trinket from her for me is better than most mythic trinkets.

  14. #794
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by EzG View Post
    I but I don't agree with the expectation that normal mode is intended to be yolo faceroll.
    You don't get to disagree. Yolo faceroll is what blizzard say it should be.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    I have not started heroic progression yet but Normal is not tuned that difficult. DPS and Healing checks are fairly low. The problem is there's lots of mechanics for each boss and people are failing at some fairly simple mechanics. Guarm starts running around....stand there are get smushed?!?! I think people go in assuming it's going to be a pushover and complain when a mechanic kills them.

    This expansion focuses on personal accountability and staying alive more than any other one in the past.
    Which it shouldn'tbe for normal mode.

    Normal mode is supposed to be beer league. There are already two progression min max runs, there is no need for a 3rd.

  15. #795
    Mechagnome EzG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You don't get to disagree. Yolo faceroll is what blizzard say it should be.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Which it shouldn'tbe for normal mode.

    Normal mode is supposed to be beer league. There are already two progression min max runs, there is no need for a 3rd.
    So the audience for normal mode are idiots who need gear, achievements, and kills handed to them? My word, well now that sounds alot like what lfr is for.

  16. #796
    Not overtuned at all.

  17. #797
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by EzG View Post
    So the audience for normal mode are idiots who need gear, achievements, and kills handed to them? My word, well now that sounds alot like what lfr is for.
    Normal is supposed to be between LFR and heroic - its supposed to be a laughaby easy raid mode that you don't need to share with strangers.

    its supposed to be the raiding equivalent of sitting on the sofa with your mates drinking beer and fucking around on a console.

    it is not supposed to be a rock hard progression mode that's equivalent to the previous tiers HC mode, that you need to completely overgear in order to kill anything in.

  18. #798
    Quote Originally Posted by Dehooka View Post
    Not overtuned at all.
    i play elemental, so i say massively overtuned for what dps my spec can do on those fights, if i was shadow priest i'd agree and be like yup it's a tough raid designed to last till nighthold and not overtuned.

    just look at helya mythic, i dare the top 5 guilds to try without any shadow priests or any hunters, bet they would tell me to fuck off it's not even possible, you know when paragon went back and killed lich king even max geared but they used no buff, amazingly impressive to 99.99% of the raiding community they could never kill it without that 30% buff, i'd consider mythic helya without spriests and hunters to be on that level of obscene skill and insane ability.
    Last edited by Socialhealer; 2016-11-22 at 09:44 PM.

  19. #799
    Mechagnome EzG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Normal is supposed to be between LFR and heroic - its supposed to be a laughaby easy raid mode that you don't need to share with strangers.

    its supposed to be the raiding equivalent of sitting on the sofa with your mates drinking beer and fucking around on a console.

    it is not supposed to be a rock hard progression mode that's equivalent to the previous tiers HC mode, that you need to completely overgear in order to kill anything in.
    Ok, so who is telling you it's supposed to be laughably easy. Who said you 100% need to overgear it to kill it. And why do you think a mid tier raid is supposed to be stupid easy? I guarantee you that someone will make a thread 2 months from now called "Nighthold is overtuned" and we get 800 posts into that thread talking about how it should be easy when in reality it's the final raid of the tier, and should be harder than its two predecessors combined. ToV is supposed to be harder than EN and take some attempts. The idea that you should walk into a raid and one shot it all is absurd. If ToV normal is meant to be a sit on the sofa drinking a cold one kind of raid, and you're dying to it, then you might want to reconsider how you are playing because it's likely user error, not the raid.

  20. #800
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by EzG View Post
    Ok, so who is telling you it's supposed to be laughably easy.
    Blizzard. They say normal mode is to be tuned around naxx 10 levels.
    Who said you 100% need to overgear it to kill it.
    The tuning of the raid.
    And why do you think a mid tier raid is supposed to be stupid easy? I guarantee you that someone will make a thread 2 months from now called "Nighthold is overtuned" and we get 800 posts into that thread talking about how it should be easy when in reality it's the final raid of the tier, and should be harder than its two predecessors combined. ToV is supposed to be harder than EN and take some attempts. The idea that you should walk into a raid and one shot it all is absurd. If ToV normal is meant to be a sit on the sofa drinking a cold one kind of raid, and you're dying to it, then you might want to reconsider how you are playing because it's likely user error, not the raid.
    They may well do. Doesn't matter. Ths subject of this thread is about how TOV is overtuned - and it is.

    Normal mode is far too hard for the sort of players who would be expected to go there. End of story.

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