Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[EzG]

Blizzard. They say normal mode is to be tuned around naxx 10 levels.


The tuning of the raid.


They may well do. Doesn't matter. Ths subject of this thread is about how TOV is overtuned - and it is.

Normal mode is far too hard for the sort of players who would be expected to go there. End of story.

So nobody in the world is capable of killing it without overgearing it? Proof? Let's also get a quote for blizzard talking about naxx 10 difficulty. I was a "friends and family" casual during that time and found it somewhat hard to pug kills sometimes. What is your definition of overtuned? If 11k guilds have killed helya since the release of the raid, how many more would be sufficient to say its tuned well. How easy does she need to be. Nearly the same amount of guilds that cleared heroic EN have done Odyn and Guarm. I'm pretty sure the consensus is ToV is harder than En and doesn't translate as if you can do Normal En you can do Normal ToV, and it should be. These normal everyday people who log in with friends and family you seem to speak for shouldn't be able to walk in the NEXT raid within the tier and expect to one shot it. The same will go for nighthold which I expect will be much harder than the others.

[Deleted]

So nobody in the world is capable of killing it without overgearing it? Proof?

I'm sure some players might be able to. Great players, who do their research and play optimally.

i.e. not the sort of players normal mode is aimed at.

Let's also get a quote for blizzard talking about naxx 10 difficulty.

Already in the thread.

I was a "friends and family" casual during that time and found it somewhat hard to pug kills sometimes. What is your definition of overtuned? If 11k guilds have killed helya since the release of the raid, how many more would be sufficient to say its tuned well. How easy does she need to be. Nearly the same amount of guilds that cleared heroic EN have done Odyn and Guarm. I'm pretty sure the consensus is ToV is harder than En and doesn't translate as if you can do Normal En you can do Normal ToV, and it should be. These normal everyday people who log in with friends and family you seem to speak for shouldn't be able to walk in the NEXT raid within the tier and expect to one shot it. The same will go for nighthold which I expect will be much harder than the others.

They shouldnt walk into one normal mode from the previous normal mode and find its not possible.

This is the same tier as EN. It should be doable by average to bad players in 855 gear. It isnt

Its overtuned.

Again - thre are already two hard progression modes. There doesn't need to be 3. If you have everything in place to do normal TOV, you can do Heroic EN instead and then come back and do heroic TOV. Normal TOV is a raid for basically no one. It has no audience as it is currently tuned.

[EzG]

Already in the thread.

Link?

They shouldnt walk into one normal mode from the previous normal mode and find its not possible.

It is though?

This is the same tier as EN. It should be doable by average to bad players in 855 gear. It isnt

So is Nighthold. 855 Ilvl should be able to do that as well even it drops way better/higher gear (875+ for normal)?

Its overtuned.

In your opinion sure. You keep saying this. Stop, you don't speak for the friend and family populous.

Again - thre are already two hard progression modes. There doesn't need to be 3. If you have everything in place to do normal TOV, you can do Heroic EN instead and then come back and do heroic TOV. Normal TOV is a raid for basically no one. It has no audience as it is currently tuned.

Except some itemization in normal ToV is better than mythic EN gear, but ok, normal TOV is for no one. And "hard" progression, meaning heroic/mythic to you, is a subjective thought.

I would like to add I take the word "overtuned" as meaning unkillable, or nearly impossibly hard. If guilds can kill it, and quite a few have (normal/heroic) then I wouldn't say it's overtuned, but maybe slightly hard. As I stated above, it's all subjective, but you speak as if fact is the only thing hitting your keyboard.

[Coldvibes]

People crying about Normal mode now are going to be screaming when they see N Tichondrius if the tuning is the same from beta.

[Deleted]

Link?

Its in this thread. Just read the last few pages of this thread.

Look, normal mode has a specific and defined audience. This are the raiders that -

Do not kick low performers
Do not min/max
Do not watch guides much
Do not pick the optimal classes and specs
Want to have fun
Dont want to wipe a shitton
Have low gear
Aren't the best players

The question is - is normal TOV tuned for these players. The answer isn't just no it is FUCK NO.

That some mythic group can stimp it on their way to better things is completely meaningless. Normal mode isn't for them. That you think normal mode should be a super hard progression run doesn't mean anything either. Blizzard want it to be around naxx 10 level. Somewhere between the old normal 10 and LFR in difficulty.

[EzG]

Its in this thread. Just read the last few pages of this thread.

Look, normal mode has a specific and defined audience. This are the raiders that -

Do not kick low performers
Do not min/max
Do not watch guides much
Do not pick the optimal classes and specs
Want to have fun
Dont want to wipe a shitton
Have low gear
Aren't the best players

The question is - is normal TOV tuned for these players. The answer isn't just no it is FUCK NO.

That some mythic group can stimp it on their way to better things is completely meaningless. Normal mode isn't for them. That you think normal mode should be a super hard progression run doesn't mean anything either. Blizzard want it to be around naxx 10 level. Somewhere between the old normal 10 and LFR in difficulty.

K I can't find the link, if you don't want to find it fine, lets forget about it.
You have described lfr. If you raided in mop you may be describing Flex difficulty which turned into the normal mode today. Normal is most certainly tuned at that audience minus a couple of those traits. You keep quoting this naxx 10 bs. Please, I don't even remember that place being easy as a casual and NOT wiping alot. What constitutes wiping a shit ton? I've been reading and hearing players complaining wiping 10 times on a boss. TEN. Are you serious? After 10 wipes you decide the place is too hard when you think you should have one or two shot the boss without even reading the dungeon journal, a blizzard tool, or anything else? The game should not be as easy as that. Lfr, I repeat, Lfr is tuned accordingly to the audience you have been describing. The difficulty level you want is there. It's called LFR. The level of players you are talking about, are talking about Lfr. You want to see the content without the commitment? LFR.

[Osmeric]

I'm starting to feel you're just trolling at this point. A human being seldom can be this dense.

It's really weird that you don't understand the obviously correct point he is making.

- - - Updated - - -

People crying about Normal mode now are going to be screaming when they see N Tichondrius if the tuning is the same from beta.

If that is the case we're going to see a sub collapse worse than any seen before.

[Goondicker]

I do think normal is overtuned. Mythic can be hard as balls - and I would prefer it that way.

But remember that normal is the old flex. It's supposed to be one raiding step above LFR. It's supposed to be the "family friendly" version. It should be a reasonable step for a normal-clearing, casual EN guild. I don't see it being feasable for that group of players in its current state.

[Easo]

Not sure... Helya probably yes, Odyn and Guarm I would say no. But the difficulty level comparably is higher than EN Normal for sure.

[Myztikrice]

Normal is supposed to be between LFR and heroic - its supposed to be a laughaby easy raid mode that you don't need to share with strangers.

its supposed to be the raiding equivalent of sitting on the sofa with your mates drinking beer and fucking around on a console.

it is not supposed to be a rock hard progression mode that's equivalent to the previous tiers HC mode, that you need to completely overgear in order to kill anything in.

No it's not, that is LFR

[Osmeric]

No it's not, that is LFR

No, LFR has to be even easier, since it has to be done by total strangers with almost no coordination, and has to be tolerant of players actively trying to grief the encounters.

And in any case, N EN seems appropriate N tuning, and no one can honestly claim LFN EN and N EN are the same difficulty.

[Ylrahc]

The progression for, as you say, "mid skill players" is as follows, I'll repeat myself:
NormalEN -- HeroicEN -- NormalToV -- Heroic ToV. Players of "high skill"(by your definition i guess) have Mythic EN and Mythic ToV in the mix and can do Heroic ToV Straight after HeroicEN.

And what about skilled players that raid heroic only ? A group of players should be able to progress in the same difficulty bracket throughout the entire expansion. Normal EN > Normal ToV > Normal Nighthold, or Heroic EN > Heroic ToV > Heroic Nighthold.
I RL a guild with about 15 active raid players, almost all with several server firsts and respectable world ranking under their belts from the Vanilla to WotLK period, and a few years ago after a 2 years break we decided to form a casual raiding group. We raid twice a week with the aim to get heroic content done before next one opens up, we've been successful doing this in MoP & Draenor. We don't want to go mythic because we don't have neither the time nor the raiding size, and stepping up with merges etc is not something we want.
We found Heroic EN rather easy, cleared Normal HoV in a few pulls, including Helya, yet Heroic Odyn feels like a brick wall. Our average ilvl is a bit below 870, yet when we reach around 80% healers are out of mana, people can't be topped fast enough, start dying, and boom. I don't see us killing it with 1 more set of gear.

There is no world where a guild of people, who cleared Heroic EN multiple times and has the gear to show for it (860+. but usually 870ish) cannot clear a normal ToV in a few cooldowns.

Which is not the point. First boss of a new instance on the same bracket as the one you cleared multiple times shouldn't feel like a brickwall. Hell, here are some numbers :
Odyn HC kills : 4293
EN Dragons of Nightmare mythic (4th boss of instance) kills : 3978
So Odyn HC is more or less available to ppl who cleared at least 3 mythic bosses in EN already.
It is completely overtuned.
And let's not speak about retarded scaling for low sized raid, did you know even with 10-11 men there are still 3 ppl to dispell on Helya, even if you run with 2 healers ? If you don't have a third magic dispelling class (warlock or SP) you're basically fucked, encounter is undoable, even in normal mode.

Stop clinging to names, you sound delusional. Normal ToV is by no means a continuation of Normal EN.

And yet it should be ? What is the group of chaps who cleans EN Normal every week and don't want to start minimaxing to progress through heroic supposed to do now ? nothing ?

Overall I'm happy it's harder, I don't mind wiping 100+ times on a boss, yet I do think that the overall numbers of ToV should be tuned down a wee bit, or the loot bumped a wee bit, because right now the entry boss of a bracket is available more or less only to ppl who are raiding previous instance in bracket+1.

[Deleted]

Normal guilds should take same amount progressing normal as mythic guilds takes mythic.
Normal is ment to be easy for Heroic guilds. Heroic is ment to be easy for Mythic guilds.
If your guild matches the difficulty then you're gona work for it, you're gonna be challenged and the kills will feel rewarding.

If you want free loot and handouts while drinking and making sausages go do lfr.

[Osmeric]

Normal guilds should take same amount progressing normal as mythic guilds takes mythic.
Normal is ment to be easy for Heroic guilds. Heroic is ment to be easy for Mythic guilds.
If your guild matches the difficulty then you're gona work for it, you're gonna be challenged and the kills will feel rewarding..

Having normal guilds require the same effort (for their skill level) as mythic guilds do (for their skill level) is not a workable design. Normal players are at the level of skill they're at because, at least in part, they don't consider that expenditure of effort to be worthwhile. The design you are suggesting would largely gut normal raiding and drive much of its intended audience from the game.

[IKT]

The differentiation between LFR and Flex/Normal has never been bigger imo.

Going from laughing through Odyn in LFR to getting 1 shot by him wasn't a nice turn of events.

They either need to buff LFR so it is actually possible to wipe on it so you can learn something, or nerf Flex/Norm because this is a shitload harder than I remember SoO ever being.

[Ylrahc]

Normal guilds should take same amount progressing normal as mythic guilds takes mythic.
Normal is meant to be easy for Heroic guilds. Heroic is ment to be easy for Mythic guilds.
If your guild matches the difficulty then you're gona work for it, you're gonna be challenged and the kills will feel rewarding.

If you want free loot and handouts while drinking and making sausages go do lfr.

You are missing the point. It's not having to work for it atm, it's hitting a brick wall and having to wait for more resets of loot hoping for titanforged to kill the boss. It's basically being told gtfo & come back when you have 5/10 more ilvls. It's not like progress is slowed, it's more that guilds do NOT progress AT ALL in the bracket they are supposed to.
Tactics are easy, execution as well, it's just numbers that are not here. Basically atm only heroic guilds kill normal Odyn, only mythic guilds kill Heroic Odyn, only Mythic+ hardcore world/server first guilds kill Mythic Odyn (mythic Xavius : 1304, mythic Odyn : 171, not even 20% !)
It is overtuned, and it's pointless to argue against it. I see no real problem in that apart from the fact that they weren't really honest with it, they made it this way to give us something to do until Nighthold is released and maybe it's not as closed as it's supposed to be, but if Nighthold really comes out in january you can bet your ass we'll see some ToV nerfs / adjustements before Xmas so more people can progress in it.

[WhatIsLegion]

You are missing the point. It's not having to work for it atm, it's hitting a brick wall and having to wait for more resets of loot hoping for titanforged to kill the boss. It's basically being told gtfo & come back when you have 5/10 more ilvls. It's not like progress is slowed, it's more that guilds do NOT progress AT ALL in the bracket they are supposed to.
Tactics are easy, execution as well, it's just numbers that are not here. Basically atm only heroic guilds kill normal Odyn, only mythic guilds kill Heroic Odyn, only Mythic+ hardcore world/server first guilds kill Mythic Odyn (mythic Xavius : 1304, mythic Odyn : 171, not even 20% !)
It is overtuned, and it's pointless to argue against it. I see no real problem in that apart from the fact that they weren't really honest with it, they made it this way to give us something to do until Nighthold is released and maybe it's not as closed as it's supposed to be, but if Nighthold really comes out in january you can bet your ass we'll see some ToV nerfs / adjustements before Xmas so more people can progress in it.

You can't compare EN progress to anything, EN is terribly terribly under tuned. EN is probably the most laughable raid I've ever ran in terms of difficulty. ToV seems right, it's fine, if anything EN needs to be buffed.

[Ylrahc]

Didn't you read my backstory ? I know what difficulty is and perfectly recognize EN is easy, but's it's an entry raid, who never have been super difficult, then it ramps up until the last raid which usually is a bitch Again it's not about difficulty, tactics or execution, it's just about fucking NUMBERS. There is just not enough heal or dps if you come from Xavius HC and you work on Odyn HC (same goes for Xavius normal Odyn Normal, and even for Xavius Mythic Odyn mythic)
The number of guilds cleaning heroic Xavius (21k, first end boss of Legion in a short instance) is not that higher to the number of guilds who killed heroic Archimonde (18.5k, last end boss of Draenor is a really long instance), which means heroic EN is still not a walk in the park (yes Xavius Hc kills number will grow up, but not by 10k, and yes it's normal to have that difference, it's the first instance of Legion after all, players base is larger than at the end of Draenor). So saying EN difficulty is too low & ToV is right just isn't backed up by numbers.
Guilds killing Xavius Heroic shouldn't need 2 or 3 months of gear in EN HC to kill first boss of ToV HC. Same goes for normal & mythic.

You say ToV is fine, can I ask you your progress in EN & ToV ?
A lot of ppl who say that are halfway in EN mythic & have killed only Odyn HC and not mythic, making their point invalid, because they do not actually know what Odyn HC feels like for a 870 raid group.

TL/DR : I don't care about how you feel, numbers back up the fact that ToV is overtuned, deal with it.

[Kazuchika]

It's totally overtuned thats why some of the top guilds had to cheat kappa

[Jastall]

I agree with the fact that heroic helya is more difficult than half of en mythic, but I don't agree with the expectation that normal mode is intended to be yolo faceroll. As if the "friend and family" difficulty means it has to be so easy it is meant for elementary children to accomplish. As if there is an assumption that friends and family casual players are complete idiots and incompetent and cannot handle even the slightest bit of difficulty. This is the first raid in awhile that the "normal" difficulty actual forces casual players to think about mechanics instead of play each mechanic off like lfr and barely learn the fight or their character to the point the bosses would die, and not even by that much. Lfr is there for a reason if you do not want to learn mechanics, play your character to its potential, or want to spend any time progressing.

As for the loot, well there isn't a whole lot of good things that drop there beyond Helya for me so I don't have an opinion, although a normal mode trinket from her for me is better than most mythic trinkets.

Let's have an analogy;

LFR is is the kid's league. Participation trophies, encouraging speeches, ''everyone wins'' attitude, so on and so forth.

Normal is the beer league. You go there with friends to have a good time. Some rivalry and challenge is expected, but nothing major.

Heroic is, say, junior/semi-pro. You're not at the top of the game, but you're not quite messing around either, you have a clear goal and want to accomplish it.

Mythic is pros. NHL, NBA, Olympic Games, best of da best.

As I see it, Normal is indeed there to be fairly easy. Not LFR level of total faceroll, but once your group has a basic understanding of mechanics and know their rotations, bosses should fall in short order. Heroic is there for more progression-oriented, yet still relatively casual difficulty. Mythic is where big dicks go about their business.

As of now, it's not the case. Normal ToV feels too much like Heroic, especially Helya. Normal HFC seemed perfect to me; apart from a handful of bosses that broke pugs because some people cannot do mechanics to save their life, it was perfectly doable with people under the dropped items so long as they knew the basics and out some back into it. That's my definition of what normal should be.