Overall, was Survival a failure?

[Deleted]

A lot of those "WoD clowns" have been around since Wrath of the Lich King. Widely considered one of the best expansions yet.

Players memories are so short.

Does nobody remember that when it was released, it was completely derided for being so damn easy? Except for Ulduar and ICC, WOTLK was a complete hatchet job of an expansion.

[aikanaro]

3 Drake sartharion (at current content) would like to have a word....
Naxx was easy because it was 90% the exact same as 60 so everyone knew the fights already (if they did them or bothered looking them up at all). They just wanted more people to experience it.

[Deleted]

The issue isn't about there being a melee spec for me. It's about taking a fun spec and deleting it completely.. and inb4 u played the opportunity WoD survival remarks... I didn't play WoD passed the first raid, I got bored. I played survival from t6 all the way to WoD. I'm not saying make survival the way it was. The melee spec is fine. I'm saying mm is boring as balls and now feels like playing a caster. As for you can do that with bm.. let me say this in a way that people can understand... bm has a pet doing a good amount of its damage... it feels like I myself do not damage and that to me feels lame I never have and never will play bm for anything. Even when bm was able to be 1 button macro'd and be the number 1 dps.. I still didn't play it and still outperformed most of the other players I knew.

Mm is literally 4 buttons right now yet you mock the SV priority?
Lol

1. I am not fond of the MM rotation right now. I pointed out it was for me more interesting in WoD when the old SV existed. Current MM mastery has changed.

2. You say current MM is a 4 button spec which can cast on the move - just like sv since cata no? If you played since late bc then you would know this. Since Cata SV has been SrS, refresh with cobra shot (the only castable which can be performed while moving), Black arrow on cd, mash explosive shot and arcane shot focus dump, insert talent spell here and slight variation on ae with explosive trap.

Not that I want to drag this conversation out but you say MM is trivial (which i do not disagree with) but it is closer to SV than it ever was before and yet you do not like it.

Somewhat Ironic.

[chinkeetoes]

don't even know why they took out glaive toss.. it looked nice hahah

[Triceratrozer]

What's with the crazy amount of flaming in this thread.

It's a melee-ranged-hybrid turned ranged turned melee specialization in a game.

[Bepples]

Shadow hunters are essentially shaman/hunter hybrids, like damn near every warcraft 3 hero being a hybrid. Their spells were chain heal, hex, serpent ward and big bad voodoo, practically 3 of which are used by shamans and the ult just not being appropriate for an mmo (maybe it is?)
The only real hunter thing would be scaling from agi and using thrown weapons, which could easily be replaced by offering an option to change lightning bolt animation to whatever weapon you use (knives for trolls, hammers for dwarves, fulfill alotta fantasy right there) and there is absolutely 0 lore connecting shadow hunters to the void.

Dark rangers also have nothing to do with them either, and also have nothing to do with the void as the chronicles state undeath magic is a separate entity from fel and void.

Not to mention we already have far too damn many edgy specs as it is, DKs, DHs, sub rogues are now shadow users, warlocks, shadow priests etc etc, shadow magic users is most definitely something we DONT need more of.

So no it definitely will not be shadow hunters im afraid.
Tinker however isnt represented by any class, is thematically unique, fills a niche no other class does, doesnt use shadow magic and just really writes itself, whether you like it or not its a very easy target, but lets not turn this into another tinker thread

Will you ever post about substantive gameplay issues or is that just too far out of your comfort zone? All you do is come in these threads and post pseudo-intellectual nonsense about themes and fantasies, and how the thousands of people who enjoyed Survival as it was deserved having their spec deleted because in your mind Survival and Marksman were the same thing because they both used a ranged weapon (ignoring the fact that, by that logic, literally every melee spec is the same thing because they all use swords, maces or axes rather than bows, crossbows, and guns).

And you don't stop there: you feel the need to deny a spec to Rogues as well since you think spec diversity is so much more important than, you know, having enjoyable specs. You also ignore all differences between any specs because, hey, as long as they use the same weapon types they must be the same thing, and it's only a good thing for Blizzard to continue mutilating beloved specs for the sake of change.

Quite pathetic.

On the thread topic:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10

Frost mage had previously trailed survival, but now with a few key buffs it multiplied its number of parses in Mythic, leaving Survival in the dust. Survival is now the ONLY spec with fewer than 1000 parses in EN mythic. It's actually the only spec with fewer than 3,000. This is despite only being very slightly behind BM in single target. It's also dead last in Heroic, i.e. even casual raiding hunters aren't playing it, so "cutting-edge Mythic raiding requirements" isn't exactly an excuse.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12

Survival has ZERO parses in ToV mythic. In heroic, it has 300, which is just a third of the second-lowest.

Remember, Survival received several large buffs in 7.1. We are not looking at any real non-negligible increase in the number of parses since then.

So, once again, it will be interesting to see how the Survival fanatics in this thread like @KrayZee and @bloodmoth13 pretend how this is purely a numbers problem, and the change from range to melee was not a deeply unpopular change that killed the spec's popularity. Will KrayZee just whine about how Survival just needs a few more buffs ON TOP OF the numerous buffs it has received since launch and then it will promptly gain the 200% increase in activity it needs just to approach the 2nd-least-played-spec, despite the fact that the 7.1 buffs did shit all? Will bloodmoth13 just drop a few walls of text explaining how, regardless of the data, this was in fact a good decision since it introduced variety to the hunter class (even though it a. reduced the variety of specs for all classes put together since now we have 1 less physical ranged dps, a type we already only had 3 of, and b. for most hunters it means 2 spec choices instead of 3 since melee is out of the question for the majority of hunters)?

- - - Updated - - -

You say current MM is a 4 button spec which can cast on the move - just like sv since cata no? If you played since late bc then you would know this. Since Cata SV has been SrS, refresh with cobra shot (the only castable which can be performed while moving), Black arrow on cd, mash explosive shot and arcane shot focus dump, insert talent spell here and slight variation on ae with explosive trap.

Not that I want to drag this conversation out but you say MM is trivial (which i do not disagree with) but it is closer to SV than it ever was before and yet you do not like it.

More pathetic over-generalisation to try to prove a bad point.

MM cannot cast on the move now. Its one cast-time ability, which makes up a great deal of the time spent in the rotation and around 40% of the total damage on single target, cannot be cast while moving. This is a level of immobility Marksman has not seen since early MoP when Steady Shot was also standstill; back then Marksman had standstill aimed shot as well but it could cast Arcane Shot instead during movement for only a small DPS loss. In WoD everything could be cast while moving but you would lose sniper training, which was probably a larger DPS loss than the arcane shot one, but still not comparable to now where missing out on an aimed shot during a vulnerability window is a significant DPS loss.

Several specs in the game use 4 buttons. Several also use 3 buttons. Several use 5 buttons. Thinking that makes them similar is just stupid. Survival and MM were both thematically different, had largely different playstyles, and clearly attracted a different type of player; the few hunters who liked playing a caster picked MM while the hunters who liked a mobile, utility-based spec picked Survival (and. according to data over MoP and WoD, there were a whole lot more of the latter type). Survival did not have the long cast times with high burst that MM had, and MM did not have the DoT-based sustained damage that Survival had. MM would use a lot of focus on fewer abilities while Survival used small amounts of focus on a larger amount of abilities. You can act like these differences didn't matter all you want, but the fact remains that they absolutely did.

More people played Survival than Marksmanship in both Highmaul and Blackrock Foundry, even though Marksman did comparable damage (and actually did more in many cases). If they both had an identical playstyle, why the hell would more people pick Survival over MM, even when MM was more often better?

[Deleted]

....Will KrayZee just whine about how Survival just needs a few more buff...?

Wow... "I'm" the one whining, okay.
Get a life, seriously. And yeah, of course survival needs buffs. You are so deluded if you believe people don't play survival because it's "melee".
People will play any FotM, Survival just isn't - as it's even far away from it. Do they compete against Rogues, Enhancers and Frost DKs? No they fucking don't, not even close, miles behind - about 20%+ behind. You won't be seeing 540k Ursoc parses, because it's (nearly?) impossible. And it doesn't have anything to make up for the lack of DPS compared to the other specs.

People reroll left and right, and the fact that the survival gameplay is not competitively enjoyable remains.
Leave my name out of your shithole of a mouth, thanks.

You don't know any meaning behind these statistics you are posting. You simply ignore absolutely everything that leads to such numbers. For example, why would anyone who is interested in Warcraftlogs, even go for a alpha/beta Spec? If they care about DPS, they won't - because that spec is clearly not finished.
What are these statistics even good for? Warcraftlogs is literally 1-10% of the community, as for who wants to play what and for what reason. It doesn't fucking matter - all warcraftlogs tells you is this. "What is the best/most played spec if you want to be competitive".
And who-fucking-hoo, SV isn't competitive at all - who would've thought. Is it because it's melee? No, it's because it doesn't have the numbers to support the downsides.
And the fact remains, you won't be getting your SV spec back this expansion, so deal with it and stop "whining".

[Lazerbrain]

Survival Hunter being melee and using a spear is the reason I started playing wow again.

So no its not a failure, it's great!

Long before MOP I knew Panda was going to be a playable race.

[Mediik]

From our WoD raiding template we have lost 2 hunters and picked up 2 demon hunters. This leaves our raid melee heavy with minimal ranged representation.

The hunters that quit raiding have done so because they dislike the direction blizz took with ranged hunter development. They didn't switch to DH or SV: they quit raiding.

None of my Hunter friends wanted melee hunters so from that standpoint it was a failure. I think the miniscule representation of SV in parses validates the general impression that a vast majority of Hunters never wanted a melee spec.

SV Hunter cannot compete with DH so again its a failure. If you are swaping to melee why choose the lesser spec?

Overall: Massive failure.

[SirreASDF]

I think the new survival is one of the most interesting specs in the game. It's a somewhat new concept with lots of utility, a few ranged attacks and mainly based on melee.. There is still a lot of work to do on it, but that is not surprising considering it's pretty much the same as "adding a new class". When DKs were introduced Blood was a DPS tree and Frost the tanking tree, so DKs have seen some major overhauls. It would be naive not the expect Survival to see some significant improvements.

Either way, the gameplay for survival is a bit unpolished, but it has such potential! It may not be the spec to chose for raiding, mainly because the game is melee heavy as it is, but the utility for solo play and pvp is amazing.

I personally would like to see it a little bit more focused on ranged abilities (Mind you, not asking for survival to be a ranged spec), but rather a melee spec who can still function for limited time at range. Throwing Axes talent is just the kind of talents I want to see available.

All in all, I think it's a GREAT addition to the hunter class. At the same time, am I sad that the old survival playstyle is gone? Yeah, for sure. But did it warrant an entire spec dedicated to it? I think not. I personally would be happy if MM talents allowed you to customize the spec to be more similar to the old survival.

[Dadwen]

I personally would be happy if MM talents allowed you to customize the spec to be more similar to the old survival.

sure why screw over just one group of people (the Old SV players) when you can screw over those that play MM too (although reading the forums alot are not all that happy with it's layout right now anyway).

[SirreASDF]

sure why screw over just one group of people (the Old SV players) when you can screw over those that play MM too (although reading the forums alot are not all that happy with it's layout right now anyway).

Ah, but if you look at current MM, more than half the talents are completely useless as of right now.. So there's plenty of unused talents that could be used for this with the ultimate goal of making both MM and old SV players satisfied.

I'm thinking talents that for example would replace Aimed Shot with the old Explosive Shot and such.. Talents that remove MM abilities and adds survival abilities in its place.. Because lets face it, The current melee survival isn't going anywhere.

[Dadwen]

Ah, but if you look at current MM, more than half the talents are completely useless as of right now.. So there's plenty of unused talents that could be used for this with the ultimate goal of making both MM and old SV players satisfied.

I'm thinking talents that for example would replace Aimed Shot with the old Explosive Shot and such.. Talents that remove MM abilities and adds survival abilities in its place.. Because lets face it, The current melee survival isn't going anywhere.

So instead of giving MM good choices, you'd trying to cut them down on if they want to play MM or SV type so both will have more limited choices nice.....

[Deleted]

you know what is a bigger failure than most of the legion specs? we trusting the wod clowns to deliver a good and well designed classes/expansion.

Have you actually had any trust in WoD Clowns? How come? A lot of idiotic changes in Legion have been announced very early too...

[namecraft]

I member interrupting mages with scatter, wyvern sting, feign death, frost trap
it was awesome
and berserking mixed with rapid fire for burst

or running at melee, to wing clip, and raptor strike and shoot em in the back

..member you guys??

[tru]

It should have just been BM being the Melee spec. SV should have stayed the more nature damage / high influx of dots spec.

IMO if WoD SV had killshot it would have been the perfect spec...prior to them beating it to the floor that is.

Got the legendary legs today...i died a little on the inside when I read that proc. Im having fun with bm and looking forward to the changes that MM will be getting. If MM has a viable spec that doesnt rely on this sidewinders crap (which doesnt even fit the "theme" for the spec) then ill switch else ill just go back to monkin it.

Legion SV just has nothing for me. My monk has been my main since the start of this xpac have no reason to want to play a melee hunter. I really hope they scrap this idea but you know blizz they will just buff it to make it work and maybe in 9.0 they will do something about it. I fully expect it to last another xpac.

[Feanoro]

Players memories are so short.

Does nobody remember that when it was released, it was completely derided for being so damn easy? Except for Ulduar and ICC, WOTLK was a complete hatchet job of an expansion.

Preach it, brother!

[Deleted]

Will you ever post about substantive gameplay issues or is that just too far out of your comfort zone? All you do is come in these threads and post pseudo-intellectual nonsense about themes and fantasies, and how the thousands of people who enjoyed Survival as it was deserved having their spec deleted because in your mind Survival and Marksman were the same thing because they both used a ranged weapon (ignoring the fact that, by that logic, literally every melee spec is the same thing because they all use swords, maces or axes rather than bows, crossbows, and guns).

And you don't stop there: you feel the need to deny a spec to Rogues as well since you think spec diversity is so much more important than, you know, having enjoyable specs. You also ignore all differences between any specs because, hey, as long as they use the same weapon types they must be the same thing, and it's only a good thing for Blizzard to continue mutilating beloved specs for the sake of change.

Quite pathetic.

On the thread topic:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10

Frost mage had previously trailed survival, but now with a few key buffs it multiplied its number of parses in Mythic, leaving Survival in the dust. Survival is now the ONLY spec with fewer than 1000 parses in EN mythic. It's actually the only spec with fewer than 3,000. This is despite only being very slightly behind BM in single target. It's also dead last in Heroic, i.e. even casual raiding hunters aren't playing it, so "cutting-edge Mythic raiding requirements" isn't exactly an excuse.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12

Survival has ZERO parses in ToV mythic. In heroic, it has 300, which is just a third of the second-lowest.

Remember, Survival received several large buffs in 7.1. We are not looking at any real non-negligible increase in the number of parses since then.

So, once again, it will be interesting to see how the Survival fanatics in this thread like @KrayZee and @bloodmoth13 pretend how this is purely a numbers problem, and the change from range to melee was not a deeply unpopular change that killed the spec's popularity. Will KrayZee just whine about how Survival just needs a few more buffs ON TOP OF the numerous buffs it has received since launch and then it will promptly gain the 200% increase in activity it needs just to approach the 2nd-least-played-spec, despite the fact that the 7.1 buffs did shit all? Will bloodmoth13 just drop a few walls of text explaining how, regardless of the data, this was in fact a good decision since it introduced variety to the hunter class (even though it a. reduced the variety of specs for all classes put together since now we have 1 less physical ranged dps, a type we already only had 3 of, and b. for most hunters it means 2 spec choices instead of 3 since melee is out of the question for the majority of hunters)?

- - - Updated - - -



More pathetic over-generalisation to try to prove a bad point.

MM cannot cast on the move now. Its one cast-time ability, which makes up a great deal of the time spent in the rotation and around 40% of the total damage on single target, cannot be cast while moving. This is a level of immobility Marksman has not seen since early MoP when Steady Shot was also standstill; back then Marksman had standstill aimed shot as well but it could cast Arcane Shot instead during movement for only a small DPS loss. In WoD everything could be cast while moving but you would lose sniper training, which was probably a larger DPS loss than the arcane shot one, but still not comparable to now where missing out on an aimed shot during a vulnerability window is a significant DPS loss.

Several specs in the game use 4 buttons. Several also use 3 buttons. Several use 5 buttons. Thinking that makes them similar is just stupid. Survival and MM were both thematically different, had largely different playstyles, and clearly attracted a different type of player; the few hunters who liked playing a caster picked MM while the hunters who liked a mobile, utility-based spec picked Survival (and. according to data over MoP and WoD, there were a whole lot more of the latter type). Survival did not have the long cast times with high burst that MM had, and MM did not have the DoT-based sustained damage that MM had. MM would use a lot of focus on fewer abilities while Survival used small amounts of focus on a larger amount of abilities. You can act like these differences didn't matter all you want, but the fact remains that they absolutely did.

More people played Survival than Marksmanship in both Highmaul and Blackrock Foundry, even though Marksman did comparable damage (and actually did more in many cases). If they both had an identical playstyle, why the hell would more people pick Survival over MM, even when MM was more often better?

It is not a pathetic comparison.

Being able to cast your focus builder on the move is closer to the flavour Survival had (mobility) except Aimed shot. So you can point out Aimed shot is not castable on the move whereas I pointed out EVERYTHING else is.

You want a fully mobile spec? Pick BM
You want utility (lol)? Pick SV

I don't see what the whine is about.. BM are getting traps in 7.1.5 pretend it's SV with an additional pet.

And don't talk to me about DoT management. I don't take you seriously when you throw that in there as if it was something that required management. It was press on cd. It mattered not whether the ability was over time or not - your primary source of dmg was Explosive shot and that was mashed pretty much on cd. As I have pointed out twice in this thread they didn't even clip, any kind of complexity was removed early Cata when you had to weave something in between the Dot.

SV was popular the same reason most easy to play classes are... they are easy and have mass appeal just like BM.

You had the crowd that wanted a challenge from their spec and if performed well saw results i.e. MM.

Then the player who liked SV, saw it trivialised over the xpacs, saw lots of players pick up hunter due to it's user friendliness then pushed said player to spec MM as there was hardly any difference between a good SV and a mediocre SV player.

I can only assume you fall into the press button that lights up and do back flips category player. Sure that may be fun, for awhile. But when you want more from your spec and squeeze more dps out because you have mastered your spec but can't because of the limitations of the rotation then you lose interest.


Your argument wasn't even counter to what I wrote.. Okay so reducing the number of buttons in a rotation was the goal for blizzard this xpac and in your opinion doesn't equate to lack of complexity (which I disagree with), however you failed to address the braindead ease of performing said rotation.

You know making a comment about the 'playstyle' followed by dot based playstyle makes me raise an eyebrow ^.-.
With that narrative I could argue Roleplayers that care a whole bunch about 'theme' are minority to PvP or PvE'rs that prioritise class design, challenge and reward over 'themes'.

The whole thing was Fire and Forget anyway. For almost 3 xpacs the roation was SRS, Cobra Shot refreshes it, Black Arrow on CD, Explosive Shot on CD, insert your Talent here (Glaive etc.), and slight variation on AE.
It's pretty similar to BM atleast Bm you have to line up burst. IT is not the same as BM but if you fail to see the similarity in ease then you are deliberately being myopic.

I have a different opinion to you.

I want a spec that rewards me for pulling off rotation and positioning perfectly, a spec that challenges me. I don't think unparalleled mobility and a fire & forget rotation is good class design in general or rewarding particularly as there is very little to distinguish a good and bad player.

Perhaps my perspective is dated and specs should be designed when the community whines and for ease of play over challenge and reward design.

Finally the lack of SV hunters in progressive content has a lot to do with ill-informed people like yourself, that take to the forums with great negativity and ignorance. Which in turn influences a lot of people.
Feral druid suffers from the same ignorance. They are not great but they are not dog bad like they make them out to be.
Brewmaster community also suffer from the same ignorance.
Also the majority of Hunters have invested their AF power into MM and BM why run as SV in progress when it was never your main spec to begin with?

Watch as we progress further into the xpac now that players are starting to see it's not the broken dogsht spec all these nabs were making it out to be.

**Edit although they have gone and fk'd things up with this armed trap nonsense.

[Bepples]

It is not a pathetic comparison.

Being able to cast your focus builder on the move is closer to the flavour Survival had (mobility) except Aimed shot. So you can point out Aimed shot is not castable on the move whereas I pointed out EVERYTHING else is.

Shitty argument and you know it. Aimed Shot is a huge part of Marksman's damage (~40% ST) and much of the time spent in the rotation is spent hardcasting it. You cannot pretend that it's a smaller part just because it's one ability out of Marksman's 3 damaging abilities (4 on AoE).

You want a fully mobile spec? Pick BM
You want utility (lol)? Pick SV

If a hunter wanted a fast-paced, archer-focused (as opposed to pet-focused), full-mobility spec beforehand, they had Survival. And that was VERY popular. Now that is no longer an option. None of the current specs are as good as what they were before 7.0, and certainly none of them are good substitutes for what Survival was.

I don't see what the whine is about.. BM are getting traps in 7.1.5 pretend it's SV with an additional pet.

That exact wording: "I don't see it", is used in every blindly pro-Blizzard post out there. It's an instant giveaway that the poster is willingly blind (and hey; the wording fits).

BM plays like shit, and is also a very unpopular spec; it's just not nearly as unpopular as Survival (and that would be because it's not melee). It has atrocious downtime and Blizzard refuses to admit that that's a problem because "it's intentional". It's excessively simplistic and boring. Most of all, it focuses on pets which suddenly have atrocious AI, frequently getting caught on environmental objects and also being really, really slow. The only reason I play this spec is because even with all its issues, it's the closest to what hunter was. Marksman went in an awful caster-lite direction and Survival is clearly fucked. Hell, if they are too stubborn to make Survival ranged again they can at least revert BM to its old design, which was actually very good.

And don't talk to me about DoT management. I don't take you seriously when you throw that in there as if it was something that required management. It was press on cd. It mattered not whether the ability was over time or not - your primary source of dmg was Explosive shot and that was mashed pretty much on cd. As I have pointed out twice in this thread they didn't even clip, any kind of complexity was removed early Cata when you had to weave something in between the Dot.

I didn't actually use the phrase "dot management", so get better reading comprehension. The point was that Survival delivered its damage in a sustained manner through DoTs and frequent, low-cost abilities, while MM was the opposite. As such, they were absolutely not the same thing.

SV was popular the same reason most easy to play classes are... they are easy and have mass appeal just like BM.

You had the crowd that wanted a challenge from their spec and if performed well saw results i.e. MM.

What utter nonsense. MM was just as easy as SV was throughout MoP and WoD.

You then spend the rest of the post talking yourself up because you are apparently part of some old guard which prefers complex specs, which means absolutely fucking nothing because Survival being ranged and Survival being complex are not mutually exclusive, nor is Survival being mobile. Legion could just have easily made Survival a complex ranged spec. So instead of wasting so much worthless text on a false dichotomy, stop making bad assumptions.

Finally the lack of SV hunters in progressive content has a lot to do with ill-informed people like yourself, that take to the forums with great negativity and ignorance. Which in turn influences a lot of people.
Feral druid suffers from the same ignorance. They are not great but they are not dog bad like they make them out to be.
Brewmaster community also suffer from the same ignorance.
Also the majority of Hunters have invested their AF power into MM and BM why run as SV in progress when it was never your main spec to begin with?

There is absolutely no credibility to this shit; this is just more pathetic deflecting of blame from Blizzard to the players. If a majority of a class hates a spec, there are two possibilities: one is that the spec has an unpopular playstyle, and the other is that EVERY PLAYER OF THE CLASS has an unshakeable mindset that the spec sucks and NO ONE has bothered to try it for themselves and realise it's not as bad as they thought. You have to be totally delusional to think that is a plausable explanation. Occham's razor. Believe it or not, people don't just hate specs because they are told to and most of the people involved have actually tried the specs. I have played Survival in 7.0, and I didn't like it. So next time you think about generalising literally most of the people playing certain classes as "ignorant", maybe you should rethink posting it before you make yourself look like a massive hypocrite. You aren't in some special club of enlightened players like you think you are, and Blizzard is only saying that people "just don't like it because they were told not to like it" because they are totally divorced from the concept of personal responsibility at this point and will not admit to ANY mistake.

Watch as we progress further into the xpac now that players are starting to see it's not the broken dogsht spec all these nabs were making it out to be.

Really? Because so far I have been assured from Survival fanatics that Survival's popularity would increase when 7.0 hit live, then when Legion released and we got our artifacts, then when raids released, then when Survival got several hotfix buffs throughout 7.0, and then most recently when 7.1 hit and Survival got several massive buffs. They were wrong every time. Survival's popularity is moving at a snail's pace.

And if you think that's just a side-effect of Artifacts/legendaries, consider that a few weeks ago the number of Frost Mage parses in mythic EN was actually below Survival. As of now, it's overtaken Survival several times over. Survival is officially the least played spec in raiding this expansion. You have to be completely delusional to think Legion's iteration of Survival was a success by any measure.

[Osmeric]

yea true. they should also give mages a healing and melee spec because there's no reason to have 3 caster specs that just use diff color spells

Here come melee mages.