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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Regalbeast View Post
    **Edited - see bottom**

    Now before you freak out and tell me I'm stupid, hear me out....

    As a former hardcore player (not hardcore progression, but hardcore like 6-7 hours per day) that can only play .5-1 hour a day, M+ is killing the ability for me to progress in terms of gear and AP when compared to other players. M+ is fine in and of itself, it is a fun way to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion and gives players something to do. We should not feel forced to run M+ to stay ahead of the curve or even slightly near the curve, that is bad game design.

    However, there needs to be a cap on how many times you an run a M+ in a day or in a week OR the rewards need to scale down after you run a certain amount per day. For the majority of players, we don't have time to run M+ all day or even for 4-5 hours in a row. The players that do run these all day have a very, very significant advantage when it comes to AP and gear.

    Blizzard has stated that they don't want the game to be just about time sink. Well, Legion is a giant time sink of an expansion, more than I've ever experienced myself (played for 12 years).

    If Blizzard wants to stay true to their design philosophies and intent, then they need to put some limits on M+ grinding.

    EDIT:

    Honestly you guys, instead of flaming and insulting me, how about you come up with something coherent and intelligent in response? Instead of "hur dur time played you suck" maybe you should present an alternative viewpoint? Or is that expecting too much?

    Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.
    Look kids, someone not taking ownership of their own time investment into a hobby.

    Don't be like Regalbeast.

  2. #162
    Warchief Regalbeast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperborean View Post
    snip except this:
    Your suggestion would literally destroy the system you're trying to "improve", all because you're angry you have responsibilities and can't sit around playing video games all day. If it's that important to you maybe you should let some of that responsibility go, and if you can't maybe you should look for some help. Hire a baby-sitter, or a deputy manager. Get a social worker to help with your disabled kid so you can play a video game once a month. work it out.
    Mostly tl;dr, but I have to point out that I'm not angry and also have to point out that I'm not sure how I feel about you telling me how to live my life and assuming that I have disabled kids? wtf?

    No, i'm not going to change my opinion but I did like reading some of the posts on this thread that were constructive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdef View Post
    Look kids, someone not taking ownership of their own time investment into a hobby.

    Don't be like Regalbeast.
    No, it's just bad game design. It's catering to a small % of the WoW population that has all day to play. Blizzard has moved away from that over the past 10 years only to bring back a Diablo-like system with RNG legendaries and RNG titan-forged shit that rewards players who play ALL THE TIME.

    There are plenty of people in this thread that agree with me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osinin View Post
    Wow this blew up fast.

    I can't do countless M+ a week either. Some guildies can and yep, they have better gear then me. Good on them, they did more and deserve more. I personally don't see a problem here.

    But I am curious, OP says they are behind, behind for what? Behind for tackling what content? What can't they do that they could do if everyone was limited in how many M+ they could run a week?
    I think you bring up a good point and that is guilds vs solo pugging. If you are in a guild you can just get carried by your guildies, doesn't matter if you are 860 and they are 880. In a solo pug, I can't get in a group with a keystone if I'm below 860 because the group finder is full of kids who play all day and are 880.

    So, maybe the answer is getting in a guild that is cool with carrying people like me who can't devote 10 hours a day to a game. Who knows.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel SnackyCakes View Post
    So your complaint is "Limit other people because i don't want to/can't put the same time in".

    Yeah nah, Would rather you just quit the game since we don't need people that want to limit content due to selfish reasons.
    and unfortunately, lots and lots of people actually are quitting because of this very attitude and design in Legion.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Long time experience with MMOs, and gaming in general.
    Unfortunately, that is a subjective experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Some of us even have programming or engineering backgrounds. A few of us have also have been gaming longer than some people on these forums have even been alive.
    Being able to write program a game does not necessary mean that same person knows how to design a good game. A common mistake is throw everything a person like and expect the final results to be amazing. If it was that simple, then the other "WoW" killers would have been financially successful.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Regalbeast View Post
    Honestly you guys, instead of flaming and insulting me, how about you come up with something coherent and intelligent in response? Instead of "hur dur time played you suck" maybe you should present an alternative viewpoint? Or is that expecting too much?

    Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.
    To me the problem with capping M+ runs at 14 (or any number) per week is that the people who don't raid will start complaining. What i mean by this is that I believe blizzards response to people complaining that raiding is the only way to get the best gear in game was to make mythic + dungeons, which is a more casual way of getting gear. By putting a limit on the number you can run each day it would lower the item levels of the average people playing the game and once again make raiding the best way to get gear since most mythic raid pieces are better than mythic+ items. Now thats not to say you wont get lucky in the few that you can run each week and get better gear, but it lowers the chance for each player to be able to do that due to the limited number of opportunities available with that change.

  5. #165
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Regalbeast View Post

    I think you bring up a good point and that is guilds vs solo pugging. If you are in a guild you can just get carried by your guildies, doesn't matter if you are 860 and they are 880. In a solo pug, I can't get in a group with a keystone if I'm below 860 because the group finder is full of kids who play all day and are 880.

    So, maybe the answer is getting in a guild that is cool with carrying people like me who can't devote 10 hours a day to a game. Who knows.

    - - - Updated - - -
    The answer is to create your own group where you can decline that filth who is under 860, because 860 is your current itemlevel, and everyone below you is trash - don't you let them join your group!

    Any reason why you don't do that?
    Last edited by mmoc96d9238e4b; 2016-11-24 at 03:49 AM.

  6. #166
    Making it so I could only run 14 per week or 2 per day would ruin Legion for me. I do mythic+ because I enjoy it as shocking as that may be.

  7. #167
    i thing i think is bullshit about m+ is the fact they want to balance classes around 5 man mass aoe/burst required content.

    aside from that, i couldnt possibly care less about m+. i think theyre boring as hell, so i dont do them.

  8. #168
    complaining about 30min dungeons being too much of a time sink how funny

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Regalbeast View Post
    It's not selfish, it's in line with most other PvE end-game options. Raiding has a weekly lockout, heroic dungeons have a daily lockout, why can't M+ have the same design philosophy?
    It is selfish when the primary reason for the change is due one person not being to keep up and wants to restrict the progress of the other players in order to not fall behind.

    Yes, there is a weekly lockout for raids for reason Blizzard decided from day one. If you want to present to one element of game that do have a cap, there are other elements of the game that do not. Such as XP that can be gained, Gold etc. Should these be a capped?

    The main difference between raids and AP is that there is currently no limit to AP and the AP cost increased more than linearly.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    The answer is to create your own group where you can decline that filth who is under 860, because 860 is your current itemlevel, and everyone below you is trash - don't you let them join your group!

    Any reason why you don't do that?
    Because he just wants a reason to call people he doesn't know 'kids' as an off hand insult for daring to have more than 30 mins a day and being more cutting edge than he can be with only 30 mins a day.

  11. #171
    Deleted
    I disagree OP. Effort should always be rewarded and the word cap is a bad word. Trust me. Check out the thread about softcap legendaries, that shit be craycray

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Socronoss View Post
    What exactly is the negative effect on you? If you don't have time, don't go M+. You will be lagging behind a little bit in your weapon, but let's face it: In around 3 months, noone cares, since by then even someone like you playing 0.5-1 hour a day will have caught up (remember, in January, at AK25, you will get around 1 Million AP just by doing daily WQs).

    Let the others grind, overall, the weapon does not really make THAT much difference (10-15% maybe), but you will still be viable anyway (just not at the top of the meters, but who cares).
    I'll explain what negative effect it has on guilds. It makes recruitment more difficult because of all these people offering free carry groups and just giving these idiots free gear. It also takes chunks of people away from raiding who now only run mythic+ dungeons instead of raiding for top end gear. The feature overall had a good idea, but it should have a hard cap just like raids do at the very least so that it works exactly like raids

  13. #173
    Totally agree. It's ridiculous that I have to run a specific dungeon over and over to get a 1) CHANCE for a drop to occur from the chest at the end then have another 2) ROLL occur for the right piece of gear which is from a much larger pool when all the bosses are combined together then have a 3) THIRD ROLL occur for good forging. When you're hunting specific loot pieces its a nightmare. Compare this triple rng roll system to the old school days of having your specific drop from a certain boss only.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Regalbeast View Post


    No, it's just bad game design. It's catering to a small % of the WoW population that has all day to play. Blizzard has moved away from that over the past 10 years only to bring back a Diablo-like system with RNG legendaries and RNG titan-forged shit that rewards players who play ALL THE TIME.

    There are plenty of people in this thread that agree with me.
    .
    Hurr durr, nobody cares. There is like 15,000 people here on MMO champ, and you don't even have all of them, and there are millions that play WoW.


    What you've said is that the people who invest all of their time get the greatest rewards?

    WHO WOULD HAVE FUCKING THOUGHT IT WOULD ANY OTHER WAY?

    Not me.

    This is just a fucking symptom of you entitled shits wanting everything with the least amount of effort.

    Your choices are this.

    1. You play more and get the rewards for playing more.

    2. You piss and moan until Blizzard nerfs THEIR ability to get cool shit because they invested the time.

    3. You equal everyone off, where you only have to put in 5hours a week for the best shit, thus making it a huge dumpster fire.

    Here's the truth. You either want more for less, or you want to hurt people who get more because they put more time in.

    Get bent dude. It'll never happen. If you don't have the time for it, I'm fucking sorry but that's how life works. They do, let them have their loot. If you don't have the time, make the fucking time or shut the fuck up.

    I get tired of hearing from you kids constantly whining about how something isn't fucking fair, or that X is broken because of Y.

    I don't have all the time in the world to do 300 attempts for Mythic Helya. As a paying customer I DEMAND that it be locked to 25 attempts per week.

    That's how you sound. Dumb as a box of rocks.

  15. #175
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    There is no reason to protect addicts against themselves.
    There are actually a number of reasons to do precisely that, however that only applies to cases of actual addiction. Someone who manages their time poorly should use that as a learning experience.

    People who are suffering from addiction constitute a drain upon society, thus my view is that we have a vested interest in actually treating addiction. Drug cartels for example are in large part funded by addicts, take away the demand and the market will collapse (Prohibition taught us that banning a substance is ineffective in stopping the sale of it). Sorry to go slightly off-topic there, I just dislike the idea of ignoring addiction as if the issue were unimportant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  16. #176
    The main problem with mythic+ that I think people are reacting to is that you can and will get raid quality gear, and more of it, on a weekly basis. I mean if you run though EN and ToV HC maybe you'll get 3-4 pieces of gear and that's on a weekly lockout. You can easily get that per day with the mythic+ system and there's no lockout.

    I don't think putting a restriction on the number of runs you can do is a good thing though. But maybe make it so the gear can't go above heroic raid quality and just cut the number of items you get in half. I'd also put more emphasis on boss difficulty, careful pulling and CC rather than speed and blowing though trash.

  17. #177
    Deleted
    My initial feelings about M+ were similar to the OP. I'm a casual raider, I barely have time for anything except for anything but raiding and herbing, and I was afraid of lagging behind on the gearing curve.

    But now, looking at the actual results of it, I will freely admit Blizzard did a good job balancing it out. I barely did any Mythic+ (27 according to wowprogress). The other MM hunter in my guild did almost 4 times more (107). Still, our ilvl's are very close. The system feeds nicely into raids even for casuals like me, her getting loot in M+ means there's more of it for me in raids. Ok, there are some people around with >300 M+ done, and they are a few ilvls ahead but hell - for that amount of grind they deserve it. And it makes my raids easier so it helps me.

    The way Mythic+ loot works, it has a natural "dimishing returns" mechanism built in. You will get to 865 quite fast, ok, but you'd do it in comparable time by raids alone. After that, you have to relay on warforged/titanforged loot dropping, which slows your gains significantly.

    Same goes for AP really - people who have time to get 3x more AP than me each day are only 2-3 levels ahead of me. It's not gamebreaking, it feels like their effort is rewarded but not required - exactly the way it should be.

    Some people don't like Mythic+ because before Legion, most if not all good gear was locked behind some time gate - so for example if you did your raids for the week, you knew that you did "enough" and could go on with your life until next lockout. Now there's more you can do to get better gear, and some people feel pushed to do it, because they are so used to "doing all there is to be done". But really, this is mostly in your heads. You have to set your own lockouts now.

    Now I do have a problem with the way Legendaries work (no diminishing returns, just blind grind), but that's a different subject altogether.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    "I don't like it" = bad game design. "I like it a lot" = good game design.

    Neither is true. It's all subjective and personal.

    Personally the very last person I'd ask to design an entertainment product/game would be an engineer for fuck's sake. Build a game after it's designed? Absolutely.
    I'm just saying that some people who say something is bad or not might actually have the knowledge, experience, or background to actually know what they're talking about.

    Not everyone, of course. In fact, moat people are doing exactly what you described: "I don't like it" = bad game design. "I like it a lot" = good game design". But not everyone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GameSpoon View Post
    Unfortunately, that is a subjective experience.



    Being able to write program a game does not necessary mean that same person knows how to design a good game. A common mistake is throw everything a person like and expect the final results to be amazing. If it was that simple, then the other "WoW" killers would have been financially successful.
    "All reality is perception".

    You could say that everything is subjective when put in the right words or perspective. Would it make you feel better if instead of engineer/programming I said "game design theory"?

    My point, as I said to moanalisa, was that some people actually know what they're talking about, or have the background to have an educated opinion.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    The answer is to create your own group where you can decline that filth who is under 860, because 860 is your current itemlevel, and everyone below you is trash - don't you let them join your group!

    Any reason why you don't do that?
    because he is to used to bein carried by 880 guildies duh so why would he want to do this content with casual filth that are even 1 itlv below his

  20. #180
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Regalbeast View Post
    Mostly tl;dr, but I have to point out that I'm not angry and also have to point out that I'm not sure how I feel about you telling me how to live my life and assuming that I have disabled kids? wtf?

    No, i'm not going to change my opinion but I did like reading some of the posts on this thread that were constructive.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, it's just bad game design. It's catering to a small % of the WoW population that has all day to play. Blizzard has moved away from that over the past 10 years only to bring back a Diablo-like system with RNG legendaries and RNG titan-forged shit that rewards players who play ALL THE TIME.

    There are plenty of people in this thread that agree with me.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think you bring up a good point and that is guilds vs solo pugging. If you are in a guild you can just get carried by your guildies, doesn't matter if you are 860 and they are 880. In a solo pug, I can't get in a group with a keystone if I'm below 860 because the group finder is full of kids who play all day and are 880.

    So, maybe the answer is getting in a guild that is cool with carrying people like me who can't devote 10 hours a day to a game. Who knows.

    - - - Updated - - -



    and unfortunately, lots and lots of people actually are quitting because of this very attitude and design in Legion.
    And you really think you suggestion will improve anything?
    No, what you are going to do is actually going to screw you over more then you think.
    You will now get constantly greeted with "sorry done the cap already, maybe next time more luck".
    Your suggestion doesn't effect you only, you basically hurt a lot of people that can only play on certain days like the weekend.

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