Are monks under-performing?

[Bags]

like i said earlier, if you play a good WW and people dont play their classes as well as you percentile wise, you're generally on top, esp more in non-ST fights. im not saying WW cant use any buffs, but i think WW is in a good place for 90% of the playerbase. its not like we're gutter trash

[AetherMcLoud]

like i said earlier, if you play a good WW and people dont play their classes as well as you percentile wise, you're generally on top, esp more in non-ST fights. im not saying WW cant use any buffs, but i think WW is in a good place for 90% of the playerbase. its not like we're gutter trash

That's the definition of a class NOT BEING IN A GOOD PLACE. "if you play better than other classes, and players on other classes play worse" then your class is objectively worse than others.

[Lucrece]

Monks are decent in PvE. Not stellar, but not unholy DK/survival hunter level of suck either.

Absolutely broken in PvP. Windwalker and Mistweaver are just dumb in PvP.

[Bags]

That's the definition of a class NOT BEING IN A GOOD PLACE. "if you play better than other classes, and players on other classes play worse" then your class is objectively worse than others.

if y ou look at the EN aggregate, we are 20k dps below the non-outlier shadow priest, it's like 350k vs 370k, it's fine lol

im not saying we cant use buffs, but we aren't bad; if you play well you'll do well comparatively unless you're in a top top guild

plus tons of classses around us are getting gutted for 7.1.5 so we'll be even better by comparison

[AetherMcLoud]

Monks are decent in PvE. Not stellar, but not unholy DK/survival hunter level of suck either.

Absolutely broken in PvP. Windwalker and Mistweaver are just dumb in PvP.

Sorry but that's a learn 2 play issue on your side. Both specs have already been nerfed enough in pvp. No one even takes mistweavers anymore.

[Lucrece]

Sorry but that's a learn 2 play issue on your side. Both specs have already been nerfed enough in pvp. No one even takes mistweavers anymore.

Oh, shut up. I've mained monk since MOP. They're fucking OP in PvP.

These forums should have a filter for "this is a terrible class" broken record posters. Every single class subforum is infected with these people.

[ShiroRX]

Id really challenge anyone to perform higher in mythic+ clears than a good windwalker. Why is this never considered over raids? You can run mythic+, never step in raids, and still have higher ilvl than pure raiders. Mythic+ tbh takes a lot of the importance of raids atm. Lets see how that shakes out with NH vs Mythic 12+.

If you stick to those log stats like they control your specs destiny, then they will.

[Deleted]

Sorry but that's a learn 2 play issue on your side. Both specs have already been nerfed enough in pvp. No one even takes mistweavers anymore.

You are literally talking out of your butt there.

Monks are fucking fine in pvp, maybe you are the one who plays bad and is using the classic class forum rhetorical hyperbole "my class is the worst absolute trash" argument every class forum says

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Oh, shut up. I've mained monk since MOP. They're fucking OP in PvP.

These forums should have a filter for "this is a terrible class" broken record posters. Every single class subforum is infected with these people.

I agree, its like people in this game live in their own little "class bubble", pretending that everyone else plays super strong classes and blizzard just happens to hate the class they play. And then they will always link some cherry picked log to further their echo chamber

[Kyletheboss]

I love raiding, not running the same dungeons over and over and over. Sure I can get higher ilvl from m+ but if im getting dumpstered by other melee in my raid while being 99th% why bring me?

[Helander]

I don't know. Maybe because it's fun? I heard there this kind of sect that actually plays games for fun.

Yeah, preposterous, I know.

This 100%. Monks are WAY more fun than any other class in my opinion, S2M shadow priest is a close second. There's also something extra special about performing well when you "shouldn't be" according to logs or wherever you are getting your info.

But to answer OP's question, yes WW is underperforming in current raids for imo a very similar reason to ele shaman, there just aren't any fights that allow WW to truly shine. As for BrM and MW I feel like it's a case of why bring a class that requires a little more out of the player when they can just bring a different class and get smoother results.

I'm not worried at all though, as I remember last X-Pac. Highmawl was horrible for monks, save for tectus and twin emps. As such a lot of WW felt as if they were forced to either switch specs or classes if they wanted to keep raiding . Then blackrock mountain came out, monks of all specs were the go to for their role, simply because of encounter mechanics.

So I think we should hold off on lighting our pitchforks until we see how nighthold plays out...if we are still scraping by at that point then we have a real problem.

[Ravingmad]

Your Ret Artifact ability WHICH HAS LOWER COOLDOWN does more damage than the WW artifact ability AND it gives you full resources instead of costing resources. No offense but you sound like those guys on the US forums trying to get monks nerfed because they got owned in WPVP.

Wake of Ashes: 30sec CD, 650% of Attack power vs Windlord Strike: 2250% of EACH weapon for 40s CD. Look a numbers, wake of ashes is way far behind. About PvP, haha, no not really. We often meet in PvP WQ, and both with full CD, I always have the upper hand as I know how to counter his abilities. Im talking PvE here. Read back and tell me where I mentionned PvP. I was just saying its a strong ability nonetheless.

"Top 6" is bottom of the barrel if there's only 9 dps though. And no one cares about cleave dps really, that's just for padding.

I dont know how your MM raids are set, but we have 14 DPS in our raid. (+2 tanks, +4 healers).
Out of the 7 bosses of Emerald nightmare, only the first boss is pure single target. So yeah, cleave matters, as its also part of the bosses mecanics. (by cleave I also mean AoE). And padding is how most people got World Ranks. (Xavius phase 3 tentacles are in every top DPS 20-30% of total damage). But every boss have different mechanics, some class/spec perform better or lower than others on some fights. There will be bosses where WW will dominate, because it fits their playstyle/cooldowns better. Same goes for every classes (overall).

Fact is that WW doesn't scale as well with gear as all or most other DPS classes do. We were fine at the start of EN, but no in ToV it already shows.

Maybe, I dont have enough data to show this, as we're focusing on cleaning EM MM at the moment, but from our NM/HM kills, our WW monk is still doing well.

Also "rotate your defensive cooldowns" maybe you should stop writing stuff about classes you have absolutely no idea about. Brewmasters can't "rotate your defensive cooldowns" since they only have 1 (ONE).

Rotate your tanking/mitigating abilities maybe was the better word; Ironsking Brew/Purifying Brew rotation for faster recovery of Stagger stacks. You can clearly see the difference between a bad Brewmaster and a good one, thats my point. It needs skill and a good understanding of your class to perform well, as its a unique way of mitigating damage.

Brewmaster brings nothing to a group. ALL other tanks bring something besides just being able to tank.

Mistweavers bring nothing to a group. ALL other healers bring something besides just being able to heal.

Windwalkers bring nothing to a group. MOST other dps bring something besides just dps. And if they don't bring anything, they bring RAW DPS, which we don't bring either since our scaling issues.

Class buff are gone. And most utility are very minor at the moment or not essential. Raw DPS is about class balance and have or not the DPS Legendaries. I think only the RetPal buff other classes. So about class utility (except maybe bumping (Typhoon) to replace adds or DK's grip), I don't really see what other classes bring. I wont play a class just because of raid utility, but because I like the class/gameplay around it.

So I don't know why you're being so harsh about it. It feels like if the monk isn't top on everything its weak. Monks are IMO in a good spot, not the best, but not the worst either. They're a tons of fun to play too. When well mastered, a monk is a powerhouse (and well geared, obviously).

[Deleted]

There'd be a simple solution to BMonks both single-target dmg and self-heal issues which pop up over and over on this forum: make TP hot scale with BoK and Face Palm + buff it's dmg a little when BoK enhanced (i.e. always crits - like Lava Burst on a Flame Shock'ed enemy - or make the BoK enhance bigger, subject to easy balancing if needed). That'd be so much easier and quicker than all the stuff people hope for / expect / look for / whine for / ask for

[Syld]

If anyone doubts monks have scaling issues just look at this:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...unt&dataset=90
We started as one of the strongest specs on the firsts weeks of EN and now we are on the bottom third of the graph, this is even more apparent on heroic logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&difficulty=4

[Deleted]

Quote Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud View Post
Brewmaster brings nothing to a group. ALL other tanks bring something besides just being able to tank.

Mistweavers bring nothing to a group. ALL other healers bring something besides just being able to heal.

Windwalkers bring nothing to a group. MOST other dps bring something besides just dps. And if they don't bring anything, they bring RAW DPS, which we don't bring either since our scaling issues.
Class buff are gone. And most utility are very minor at the moment or not essential. Raw DPS is about class balance and have or not the DPS Legendaries. I think only the RetPal buff other classes. So about class utility (except maybe bumping (Typhoon) to replace adds or DK's grip), I don't really see what other classes bring. I wont play a class just because of raid utility, but because I like the class/gameplay around it.

So I don't know why you're being so harsh about it. It feels like if the monk isn't top on everything its weak. Monks are IMO in a good spot, not the best, but not the worst either. They're a tons of fun to play too. When well mastered, a monk is a powerhouse (and well geared, obviously).

I just want to add to this the following:

Brewmasters give something no other tank as an OFFtank. When tanks have to share a big cleave monk tanks excell so much more, healers do not have to stress your survival instantly due to how stagger works... mostly hots will keep you up... so healers can keep focussing the main tank. Also your abbility to pick up adds from a large range with your totem... awesome...

Mistweavers... haven't played since last exp. Cannot comment on that. All I know.... revival is a really great uttility.

Windwalker... is actually one of the only classes which still brings a buff with himself. The MOST UNDERRATED buff in history of WoW. 10% movement speed increase. If your WW has the legendary ring he gives 25% movement speed to everyone in 100 yards range. THAT IS INSANE!!!! Faster tank movement, faster dps movement... means higher dps uptime and better raid survivability. Never to be underestimated!

[Deleted]

I love raiding, not running the same dungeons over and over and over. Sure I can get higher ilvl from m+ but if im getting dumpstered by other melee in my raid while being 99th% why bring me?

If you love raiding, do not like to be benched or as you said dumpstered by other classes, you´d better be ready for a lot of work for playing this game.
NO CLASS will guarantee you this, the only way to be sure of avoiding the former is to have nearly all classes raid ready.
And no, balance issues are not going anywhere, the game is 12 years old, and it has never have balance between the classes, so it is time for eveyone to accept it never will.
The most you can do if you stick to just one class, is try to perform the best that you can, and pray it does not get too nerfed in next "unbalance" patch.

[Deleted]

I was thinking of going back to Monk for the next raid tier, currently a fire mage 5/7m (wiping on cens single figure %....)

Im frustrated at a class that needs specific things to be competitive.

My fav class is Brew and i raided as WW in HFC, but decent reliable range seems to be at a premium so i changed to mage.

I never know what to think about forums talking about a class, cause the ppl at the top say its fine, ppl who play it bad says its a bad class. I just want to know if it can put out solid DPS in raids? I'm also a fan of doing Mythic+

Its currently 867 atm but once EN M is clear i can gear it up

[Deleted]

If you love raiding, do not like to be benched or as you said dumpstered by other classes, you´d better be ready for a lot of work for playing this game.
NO CLASS will guarantee you this, the only way to be sure of avoiding the former is to have nearly all classes raid ready.
And no, balance issues are not going anywhere, the game is 12 years old, and it has never have balance between the classes, so it is time for eveyone to accept it never will.
The most you can do if you stick to just one class, is try to perform the best that you can, and pray it does not get too nerfed in next "unbalance" patch.

Thats the thing with I dread the most yeah.... Last Expansion I was being benched while never missing a raid, never causing wipes, performing to the best of my abbilities (upon checking logs I most of the times had a 98% activity during fights, with no missed opportunities to cast: FoF, Chi Wave, or RSK.. I did what I was supposed to do... but was at the bottom of the DPS during Heroic Hellfire Citadel. My 40 ilvls lower hunter did more damage than my WW, so I had to raid on my alt... which at the end of the expansion was forced to be my Main....

And that is the problem with WW... the further we go into an expansion... the lower we fall.. every expansion so far we started out really high... at the top of the DPS charts and then we fall. Its bassically to poor design from a mathemetical point of view. Simply because we currently do not scale well enough with gear. Iff all our attacks were weapon damage based with larger bonusses from Attack Power we would do just as good as other DPSers who scale from weapon damage.

But since we use our Fists... we are not allowed to scale from weapon damage...orsomethimg... i dont know... weird stuff...

[Babylonius]

Thats the thing with I dread the most yeah.... Last Expansion I was being benched while never missing a raid, never causing wipes, performing to the best of my abbilities (upon checking logs I most of the times had a 98% activity during fights, with no missed opportunities to cast: FoF, Chi Wave, or RSK.. I did what I was supposed to do... but was at the bottom of the DPS during Heroic Hellfire Citadel. My 40 ilvls lower hunter did more damage than my WW, so I had to raid on my alt... which at the end of the expansion was forced to be my Main....

And that is the problem with WW... the further we go into an expansion... the lower we fall.. every expansion so far we started out really high... at the top of the DPS charts and then we fall. Its bassically to poor design from a mathemetical point of view. Simply because we currently do not scale well enough with gear. Iff all our attacks were weapon damage based with larger bonusses from Attack Power we would do just as good as other DPSers who scale from weapon damage.

But since we use our Fists... we are not allowed to scale from weapon damage...orsomethimg... i dont know... weird stuff...

This may have been a player issue or dependent on the time you were progressing, as WW was the strongest melee on Mythic HFC progression and one of the strongest in BRF until Blackhand. It wasn't until people started getting legendary rings with high modifiers that WW fell behind due to not being able to make lots of use out of it.

The misconception that WW was somehow weak in Warlords was correct for about a month during Highmaul. Those who played the spec well performed very very well.

[Deleted]

But since we use our Fists... we are not allowed to scale from weapon damage...orsomethimg... i dont know... weird stuff...

Dont casters scale of weapon damage despite well using... MAGIC?

[Mcbenchpress]

Our mobility, burst and cleave carry in PvE. Don't worry about WW, its one of the better melee specs atm.