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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by PowerOfTwo View Post
    They tried to limit attempts in WotlK (Algalon / LK) and poeple just used an army of alts to learn the mechanics and burn thought attempts. Outside of accountwide (and account shareing says helo) lockout , you can't realy limit the amount of time spent on in M during the world first race. Personaly i find it kinda bullshit as even exorsus themselves admit , it's not down to skill , it's who can put in 14+ hr raid days the longest.

    Class stacking, account sharing, split runs , 14+ Hr raid days... very little to killing a M boss comes down to skill. You just brute force the thing down, pull after pull you figure out what works and it'll eventualy go down. I remember archimonde world first took like... 550ish pulls to kill. Blackhand took like 700... and this was done wthin a week ffs. Thats not a demonstration of skill it's an endurance check... to quote Yahtzee "put your hand on a stove for 14 hours and you'll probably stop feeling the pain, sure, but that's because most of your hand burned off by that point"

    Here's a thought.... server wide limited attempts?.... like you get a reasonable 250-500 pulls server wide of a M boss, and once those wipes are done, it's despawned for the week. I'd just love to see the M race put more emphasis on skill.
    the point is, in wow pve has never come down to skill - vanilla the game was new, DnT, SK, nihilum were all putting in heavy hours. TBC - alts became more popular, but content was much more steep as most people didnt even smell sunwell. naxx - long raids and limited tries per bosses forced alts gearing. cata/mop - we wrote freaking addons just to manage ragnaros, spine, zonozz, sinestra, etc, mop was just an alt-fest and gimmicks like mages rotating ROF in vaults, just off the top of my head.

    in pve people confuse skill and optimization. the former does not exist, because every class/spec has been extremely theoritisized and simulated since tbc, the goal has always been optimizing your dmg. Tanking and healing has always been fixed as you always rotate cds be that tanking or raid-wide.

    im not saying the system is good, but MMOs usually come down to who can grind the most. you want skill, play csgo and dota2, because there skill means a 6 digit paycheck per year.
    Last edited by klaps_05; 2016-11-24 at 12:58 PM.

  2. #42
    Deleted
    Well... i think they were right in that Blizzard wasn't firm in their positions before but now they are and i support that. It had already happened on ill'gynoth and it has to stop. Exploiting is not ok. So, they all deserved to be banned. The only issue was the message that blizzard sent in the past, also with the WQ exploits for AP. Exploiting should 100% be bannable and severely punished. It's the only way to not incentivise it.

    Now what concerns me the most is that statement about the 4 legendary cap. If it's true its absolutely unnaceptable. I had a theory that things also worked with a cap in recipes for gathering and crafting until 7.1. I especially looked at herbalism, where none in my guild ever got more than 3 rank3's until 7.1 came out. I am 90% sure it was capped.
    If the same happens with legendaries i start getting tired of Blizzard's lieing ways. If theres no limit, there should be absolutely no limit. Or just bring out a system that allows one to aim at the legendaries they desire.
    This i agree with 100% and is a grave issue that needs fixing for yesterday. And i say this as someone who got lucky enough to get 2 good ones out of 4. But this system is cancer.

  3. #43
    The high end raiding scene and it's community are a very small niche. Blizzard knows where their paycheck comes from. It's not from the sheer number of high end raiders and their fans paying subs. It's casual players buying pets and mounts and items from the store. It's casual players buying boosts, race changes, faction changes, realm changes, and more. Blizzard stopped making this an actual game after WotLK. That's when it became the low end circus that it is now. No amount of enticement is going to change the massive amount of time you have to dedicate to high end raiding. Nor will it change the massively overbearing requirements that high end raiding guilds have. There's nothing wrong at all with any of that, but the vast majority of the games population just don't have the time and/or the patience to deal with any of that. as I said, it's a small niche that won't make or break the game.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Exorsus Statement
    Recruiting becomes almost impossible - it's hard to explain to any skilled player, why would he waste his time on this, when the only good outcome he gets is some cheering on twitter and some good emotions after the kill. The only thing that still attracts people to such guilds is "boosting" (and it's gonna be the last paragraph), because selling M+ and raid runs for a real life money helps every top guild to at least get some cash for what they do.
    Once upon a time, playing a game was a freetime activity. Now we are in the age of streams and e-sports and people play as a job. I understand that it seems so unfair, that some players get money for playing and streaming and those raid-people, who play on a professional level don't. On the other hand, just because something takes time and is hard doesn't mean one has the right to be payed for it.

    I don't watch streams and e-sports because i think its superboring compared to playing yourself, but watching a guild wipe 260 times seems even more boring to me than watching people play counterstrike.

    Soccer players get more fame and money than chess players, a jazz musician is less likely to be a star than a rapper. How hard and challenging something is and how much time it took does not always correspond with the rewards you get for it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    Artefacts:
    • In ordner to better fit the current post-truth zeitgeist, we are going to rename alle occurences of "artefact" into "artebelieve".

  5. #45
    High end gaming has always been about finding and abusing exploits. If you get caught, you move on. If you don't get caught, you post a large wall of text about team spirit, dedication, common goals and all that after you win the championship.

    As far as viability for a competitive scene, the main thing is that there isn't much action going on in the entirety of a boss pull in WoW and that everything going on is too predictable. I love WoW but anyone who can appreciate the degree of mental focus and quick thinking that is required to do well in FPSs and MOBAs knows that this game just doesn't offer a very high skill ceiling, so it doesn't have much to offer in the way of eSport spectacle.

  6. #46
    In order to get the world first race back into some sort of shape they need to figure out how to solve a few problems.
    * First the split running needs to go. Maybe make heroic and mythic raids share a lockout and be bound to account not character and you get like two lockouts per account so you can run one alt if you wish.
    * Secondly the insane amount of time required outside of raiding also needs to be stripped away. AP and titanforging in mythic+ are are main culprits here. Perhaps cap the titanforging iLvl at heroic raid quality so that the gear would still be good for everyone except for mythic raiders. Put some diminishing returns on the AP you get from running dungeons and normalize it across all difficulties. Perhaps after 10 dungeons regardless of difficulty you stop getting AP from the bosses.

    That should solve the issues that these people are facing without affecting anybody else.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidget View Post
    In order to get the world first race back into some sort of shape they need to figure out how to solve a few problems.
    * First the split running needs to go. Maybe make heroic and mythic raids share a lockout and be bound to account not character and you get like two lockouts per account so you can run one alt if you wish.
    Make new account "let's go!"
    Doesn't really work, all the top guilds would just have many accounts.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Well... i think they were right in that Blizzard wasn't firm in their positions before but now they are and i support that. It had already happened on ill'gynoth and it has to stop. Exploiting is not ok. So, they all deserved to be banned. The only issue was the message that blizzard sent in the past, also with the WQ exploits for AP. Exploiting should 100% be bannable and severely punished. It's the only way to not incentivise it.

    Now what concerns me the most is that statement about the 4 legendary cap. If it's true its absolutely unnaceptable. I had a theory that things also worked with a cap in recipes for gathering and crafting until 7.1. I especially looked at herbalism, where none in my guild ever got more than 3 rank3's until 7.1 came out. I am 90% sure it was capped.
    If the same happens with legendaries i start getting tired of Blizzard's lieing ways. If theres no limit, there should be absolutely no limit. Or just bring out a system that allows one to aim at the legendaries they desire.
    This i agree with 100% and is a grave issue that needs fixing for yesterday. And i say this as someone who got lucky enough to get 2 good ones out of 4. But this system is cancer.
    No it wasnt, my guildie had almmost all herbs on rank 3 and another one had 2 herbs on rank 3.

    Also i think Exorsus is full of shit with their saying about this soft cap, imo they got rekt and now are "attacking the game" just to play some "victim's card".

    Now you look at From Scratch and the other one i forgot the name, those 2 were 100% pro's on their statements.

  9. #49
    Why the moaning. They knew it was an exploit and still used it. All the "Blizz don't understand or pay attention" shit is worthless. They cheated. They got banned. At least Limit had the good grace to acknowledge it.

  10. #50
    I find actively raiding boring as Hell, viewing others do it would be akin to watching paint dry. I also don't know who really cares about world firsts, I certainly never have and never will.

    Also, as others have said, raiding doesn't come down to skill and it's always been extremely niche. I don't see the proposal attracting much of an audience.
    "We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by IntellectuallyChallenged View Post
    The high end raiding scene and it's community are a very small niche. Blizzard knows where their paycheck comes from. It's not from the sheer number of high end raiders and their fans paying subs. It's casual players buying pets and mounts and items from the store. It's casual players buying boosts, race changes, faction changes, realm changes, and more. Blizzard stopped making this an actual game after WotLK. That's when it became the low end circus that it is now. No amount of enticement is going to change the massive amount of time you have to dedicate to high end raiding. Nor will it change the massively overbearing requirements that high end raiding guilds have. There's nothing wrong at all with any of that, but the vast majority of the games population just don't have the time and/or the patience to deal with any of that. as I said, it's a small niche that won't make or break the game.
    You didn't get the post.... Not everyone watching a sport event is a hardcore athlete. You get that? I'm not a hardcore raider, but still enjoy the race for w1. More coverage would be great, because well reread the exorsus statement.

  12. #52
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    Blizzard has no reason to give any attention to cutting edge raiding / world firsts / etc. Even though quite a few Blizzard employees are former top 1% raiders now, Blizzard would gain nothing out of promoting the world first race because the amount of players that engage in that content is so low. The average player doesn't know who the top guilds are and they don't give a fuck, nor would they if Blizzard threw an advert for the world first race in the launcher. Actually doing raiding is unappealing to the masses, the time commitment is too big, the requirements set by guilds are too high, it's an incredibly cumbersome beast that's not worth it for most people, so WATCHING it is probably even less appealing.

    And most of Exorsus' statement was "wah wah wah wah wah feel sorry for us."

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavril View Post
    That would make for some utterly terrible viewing , ooook so now on to wipe 291 of Mythic Gul'dan ..

    Personally I think blizzard handles it exactly like they should because if they promoted it really it would only push high end raiding in to a even more unhealthy state.
    You will be surprised, I personally had the Dannish Terrace stream on in the background all day while they wiped on M Guarm, it was interesting to see them change tactics etc what made them reach that choice and also watch what the streamer used as openers etc

  14. #54
    So much Jelly at this thread. I could bring some bread and develop diabetes

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    So after reading all of it I was really interested. I'm not focused on the bug abuse too much and moreso the high end raiding scene.

    So it seems (as we all know) that it's not doing too well. Exorsus attributes that to Blizzard paying no attention to it whatsoever. I personally agree and feel that if Blizzard actually made it something to be hyped about and gave motivation to try and get world first aside from "bragging rights" the scene would absolutely flourish.

    Not only would the high end raiding scene be flooded with new blood but we would most likely see a return of old world first guilds. I feel like the high end raiding scene has a ton of potential. I wouldn't call it an esport but it would be something really cool to watch. How cool would it be to watch the world first guilds stream their progress as Exorsus mentioned? And whoever gets first gets the prize pool.

    I really do feel like they brought up some good points and I also hope Blizzard takes them to heart and thinks about it. The community hypes up the world first scene a ton, now imagine if Blizzard actively promoted it added incentive to the race. It would flourish.

    What do you think?



    I think Blizzard should neither promote nor discourage anything to do with high end, world-first style raiding.


    By default, it is an EXTREMELY small segment of the population that does it... and due to statistics, nothing can (or will) ever change that. So any money spent actually developing anything specifically for it would be better spent on nearly any other aspect of the game.

    Some cheap or costless advertising for it might be nice from a promotion standpoint, but nearly anything else is pointless and might actually detract from the overall quality of the game.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I find actively raiding boring as Hell, viewing others do it would be akin to watching paint dry. I also don't know who really cares about world firsts, I certainly never have and never will.

    Also, as others have said, raiding doesn't come down to skill and it's always been extremely niche. I don't see the proposal attracting much of an audience.
    I'm with you there. Haven't raided much since Cata. Did a few runs in Hellfire Citadel, and all I could think was "is it over soon"?, Emeral Nightmare too. I don't watch high end raiding guilds' kill videos. I'm aware of the the hard word and dedication they put in, but no, it's just not interesting to watch

    I do wonder how they recruit though, this is Method:
    You will be required to dedicate yourself to min/maxing not only your main character, but also maintain and prepare multiple (5+) alts [...] During progress raids our schedule is really demanding: we raid 12-15 h/day and it's really important you understand this before even thinking about applying or poaching an officer in-game in order for us not to waste yours/ours time.
    I mean, how many people fit these criteria, the pool must be very tiny, even more so for national guilds (Paragon/Exorsus)? I do have the time for the progress raids, but I'm without the drive to spend 12+ hours in a raid as well as being familiar with the theorycrafting behind several specs.
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  17. #57
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    i liked how they changed the topic from "we cheated" to, "hey guys the legendary system is fuxx0red, right???"
    I agree that they kinda chickened out. But this thread is valid and I really think we should try and stay on topic.

    Personally I agree that blizzard should do more towards the raid progression race. Making a stream for the leading 5 or so on twitch would definitely help it. Commentators would seriously bump it aswell

  18. #58
    I don't think adding further incentives for people to compete in mythic raiding would accomplish all that much. There's already plenty of cool rewards in game from beating the toughest raid content, and an esports-esque competition would be very messy to handle and not particularly enjoyable for the majority of viewers. A niche audience would be interested in watching world first streams, but tuning in to watch a guild wipe on static PvE boss encounters dozens, if not hundreds of times is not going to make for very compelling viewing for most people.

    WoW came along before the modern scene of competitive gaming was really a thing, and it was absolutely not designed with such a purpose in mind. Fans made the world first race a thing, and if the fan interest just isn't there any more, then I don't think it's on Blizzard's shoulders to try and rekindle it. It would be cool if they acknowledged world/region firsts in some official capacity, but I think the organisational effort of hyping it up as a competitive thing is probably better spent elsewhere.

  19. #59
    Odyn : Huge bug in P3 discovered during heroic week, not fixed.
    Helya : Breath bug discovered during heroic week, not fixed.
    WQ Bug.
    MM+ Starting area bug (CoS, Neltharion), not fixed for several weeks.
    Withered scenario.
    ...

    Top notch QA you got there Blizzard !! The 2 years alpha/beta are worth it, can't wait for the next full class design overhaul next expansion too.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    I think Blizzard should neither promote nor discourage anything to do with high end, world-first style raiding.


    By default, it is an EXTREMELY small segment of the population that does it... and due to statistics, nothing can (or will) ever change that. So any money spent actually developing anything specifically for it would be better spent on nearly any other aspect of the game.

    Some cheap or costless advertising for it might be nice from a promotion standpoint, but nearly anything else is pointless and might actually detract from the overall quality of the game.
    This is not true. Having a competative "elite" that people follow and cheer for keeps players engaged and interested.
    Most players might not play at this level but that does not matter, they at least have something to aspire to.

    It's like football. Do you really think people would be as intrested in it if there was no NFL, no competitive leagues at all? No, of course not.
    Now, I'm not saying it's the exact same thing but you get the point.

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