Suramar Elven Armies; The Blood Elves rise!

[Combatbutler]

and Oculeth insisting you pick up night elf armaments - "primitive" weapons like the bows Victoire was also talking about. Yet here they are, using them anyway. There they are looking a lot more night elfy with their dark skin and moon symbols on their tents.

This might have more to do with the fact that they need weapons and in huge amounts whether they deem them really suitable or not, it is still better than nothing. It is similar to the situation back in Quel'thalas in early bc they lacked weapons and you were send out to retrieve shipments and even had to kill amani to steal some of theirs.

[Arrashi]

I absolutely loved how blood elves "trolled" night elves in that one quest. You mad mon ?

Other than that, yeah the token support night elves came with doesnt really impress anyone.

[Deleted]

I absolutely loved how blood elves "trolled" night elves in that one quest. You mad mon ?

Other than that, yeah the token support night elves came with doesnt really impress anyone.

Doesn't this trolling quest go both side?

I played it as a Sin'dorei, and Kal'dorei were putting up shit in our camp!

Or do you mean another quest?

[ravenmoon]

This might have more to do with the fact that they need weapons and in huge amounts whether they deem them really suitable or not, it is still better than nothing. It is similar to the situation back in Quel'thalas in early bc they lacked weapons and you were send out to retrieve shipments and even had to kill amani to steal some of theirs.

yes, I concede that. Silgryn does mention the art of spell lancing takes years to master. There is also a limit on available mana too, to keep the influx of rebels to the cause fully unwithered. It also doesn't seem everyone is able to conjure weapons, although Victoire's comment of them simply using the fabric of creation to spell anything they want does somewhat contradict what oculeth is aying, unless of course, not every nightborne is able to handle the magic like that, at least without training, which would take years, so the natural weapons have to supplement what they can use.

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But blood elves use bows too.

yeah, conveniently forgotten by the incredibly biased massive blood elf fanbase here. I don't think at all, Silgryn or Vitoire are disisng the night elves but are rather just complimenting the blood elves. The night elves are far more ravaged anyway at this stage than the blood elves, having lost tons in cataclysm to the horde, the cataclysm itsellf, the twilight cult, the naga and the Fire lord. then now the Legion which has decimated the wardens -- there are so few of them with Tyrande when they confront Ysera...

you do get the feeling the night elves are really on their last legs... whereas the blood elves seem refreshed, charged, oraganized and ready to go. Tyrande and co badly need the nightborne in their ranks, and I'm not sure even if they do, it would be enough... who will they get? They'll get the rebels, and we don't know how large these are, we are fighting the majority of the trained nightborne soldiers who remain loyal to Elisande, and whiles the rebesl have potential, they are not all soldiers or experet spell users - it might not be enough. And it's a bit worrying how easy the blood elves seem to be matching the nightborne who've had 10k years of un-interrupted magical development and appear very impressive with their runes and conjured armor/weapons, magical ability.. but already the blood elves are getting secrets, and by all accounts they find their magic impressive.

This seems to indicate that the sunwell enhanced Belves seem to be near on par with the nigthwell.. further fuelling the suspicion that the nightwell is the nightborne/highborne/night elf counterpart to the sunwell. But Rommath does ponder what the Blood elves could have achieved if they had something as powerful s the nightwell, which maeks me conclude that at the moment, the nightwell is the more powerful well, rivaling the original Well of Eternity (possibly the 2nd well too), however the blood elves are enhancing their magic too with the blood crytals and other thigns they've learned.

it could also be that Silgryn is not as talented as Valtrois or Rommath who give us these parallels of the nightwell to the well of eternity and the sunwell. Saying that though, again Silgryn could be discerning that the blood elves with sunwell, blood crystals and all their impressive tircks combind together could possibly have enough .. which might be what they end up going with.

They'd probably make the blood elves as smart as the nightborne, but their alien and titan discoveries since TBC amplifying their magic in addition to the Sunwell being roughly equivalent to the nightborne and the nightwell.

[Combatbutler]

The night elves are far more ravaged anyway at this stage than the blood elves, having lost tons in cataclysm to the horde, the cataclysm itsellf, the twilight cult, the naga and the Fire lord. then now the Legion which has decimated the wardens -- there are so few of them with Tyrande when they confront Ysera...

Just because the blood elves can field an army nowadays, does in no way mean they are overall in a better position, the night elves still controll most of northern Kalimdor and still have other holdings around the globe. The night elves are in a tough spot right now, but they can still field troops to help on the frontlines.

The blood elves cannot stand up to the night elves in an all out military confrontation.

[Friendlyimmolation]

@ravenmoon

This is what I percive as the problem with Night elves. To simply call it arrogance would not be covering the whole thing, but for attempt at saving time Ill basically say they are arrogant. When it comes to Night elves being arrogant, some might think that would be a mistake, after all look at what they have lost, the blood elves humiliated then when they started coming back to their highborne arts, the orcs ambushed and defeated many of them in their own forests, and before that their immortality was lost to the burning legion. However the night elves would always pull through, if their mage apprentices die that's fine, they still have the druidic arts to fall back on and that has never failed them, if the orcs are in the forests too long, even Varian comes to eventually help them save the day.

The problem here is that the Night elves either refuse to realize or don't understand what taking in new allies, especially the night-borne would do for them. Yes Tyrande eventually becomes nice to the Nightborne, but compare that to what the blood elves are doing "we will exact vengeance on ellisande for attacking your people, we know what addiction feels like, and we have had to depose of our once honored rulers as well" Already the blood elves are reaching out, trying to wrap their arms around the nightborne, we already see their magisters figuring out how Nightborne magic works and can infer that they are cozying up bigtime to the Nightborne, surely ready to take in as many as possible to their side. Now this is all my opinion and quite a bit of rambling, but I think that tyrande doesn't really understand the benefits of getting the nightborne on their side other than to temporarily stomp Ellisande. They can offer Elune, a re connection with the rest of the Night elves and i'm sure many other things. But as of now to me, the Night elves still despite all the beatings they have come through, still are too arrogant to try to bring in new allies to strengthen themselves.


This was a long ramble. Tl'dr I think the night-borne don't understand the possibilities that the Nightborne would offer them, and will let the blood elves take them from under their nose if they dont try anything.

[Rhlor]

yes, I concede that. Silgryn does mention the art of spell lancing takes years to master. There is also a limit on available mana too, to keep the influx of rebels to the cause fully unwithered. It also doesn't seem everyone is able to conjure weapons, although Victoire's comment of them simply using the fabric of creation to spell anything they want does somewhat contradict what oculeth is aying, unless of course, not every nightborne is able to handle the magic like that, at least without training, which would take years, so the natural weapons have to supplement what they can use.

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yeah, conveniently forgotten by the incredibly biased massive blood elf fanbase here. I don't think at all, Silgryn or Vitoire are disisng the night elves but are rather just complimenting the blood elves. The night elves are far more ravaged anyway at this stage than the blood elves, having lost tons in cataclysm to the horde, the cataclysm itsellf, the twilight cult, the naga and the Fire lord. then now the Legion which has decimated the wardens -- there are so few of them with Tyrande when they confront Ysera...

you do get the feeling the night elves are really on their last legs... whereas the blood elves seem refreshed, charged, oraganized and ready to go. Tyrande and co badly need the nightborne in their ranks, and I'm not sure even if they do, it would be enough... who will they get? They'll get the rebels, and we don't know how large these are, we are fighting the majority of the trained nightborne soldiers who remain loyal to Elisande, and whiles the rebesl have potential, they are not all soldiers or experet spell users - it might not be enough. And it's a bit worrying how easy the blood elves seem to be matching the nightborne who've had 10k years of un-interrupted magical development and appear very impressive with their runes and conjured armor/weapons, magical ability.. but already the blood elves are getting secrets, and by all accounts they find their magic impressive.

This seems to indicate that the sunwell enhanced Belves seem to be near on par with the nigthwell.. further fuelling the suspicion that the nightwell is the nightborne/highborne/night elf counterpart to the sunwell. But Rommath does ponder what the Blood elves could have achieved if they had something as powerful s the nightwell, which maeks me conclude that at the moment, the nightwell is the more powerful well, rivaling the original Well of Eternity (possibly the 2nd well too), however the blood elves are enhancing their magic too with the blood crytals and other thigns they've learned.

it could also be that Silgryn is not as talented as Valtrois or Rommath who give us these parallels of the nightwell to the well of eternity and the sunwell. Saying that though, again Silgryn could be discerning that the blood elves with sunwell, blood crystals and all their impressive tircks combind together could possibly have enough .. which might be what they end up going with.

They'd probably make the blood elves as smart as the nightborne, but their alien and titan discoveries since TBC amplifying their magic in addition to the Sunwell being roughly equivalent to the nightborne and the nightwell.

The reason the blood elves are so strong is because they were not isolated, they searched through different places for powerful technologies and magic to boost their army.

Even now the reliquary is still looking for artifacts that are sure to be very useful to blood elves

[Krazzorx]

Doesn't this trolling quest go both side?

I played it as a Sin'dorei, and Kal'dorei were putting up shit in our camp!

Or do you mean another quest?

The Troll figurines were far funnier imo than the mini sunwells.

[Rhlor]

The nightborne are impressed by the blood elves judging by this new information from the camp. The night elves may need the nightborne and the nightborne the night elves, but I think it's the blood elves they'd prefer on their side.

Blood Elves 2 - 0 Night Elves

Even the Nightborne respect the blood elves: Victoire and Silgrn make these comments about the blood elves:

Silgryn: "These blood elves are battle-hardened and disciplined. Their strength will be most useful."
Victoire: "These blood elves have some formidable magic. Let us hope it is enough to counter the might of the Nightwell."

The night elves so primitive in comparison and unimpressive to them, though they're quite polite about it. Silgryn remarks "It is hard to believe we are all descended from the same elves. None of us are truly impervious to the passage of time. It seems." - i.e. he is shocked how different the kaldorei have become to what they once were, so different it's hard to believe by looking at them, that they all came from them. And his comment is marking how their glory has faded considerably - a far more polite version of Elisande's comments that follow.

Silgryn: "The night elves use bows! I do not think a bow has been made in Suramar in centuries. I wonder if they would let me use one for practice..."
Victoire: "I saw the Sentinels doing target practice over in their camp. they sure can shoot...We never really embraced the bow. After all, who needs such primitive instruments when you can craft the fabric of the world to fire missiles for you?"

Side by side, the night elves can't and don't even compare to the blood elves, and the nightborne see it.

pics please

[Combatbutler]

The Troll figurines were far funnier imo than the mini sunwells.

The implications for that are quite interesting in general after all and how much the horde might have changed them. The night elves see it as insulting, but it seems the blood elves don't see it that way anymore, otherwise the blood elves would insult themselves with these figurines, since they are related to the night elves.

[ravenmoon]

@ravenmoon

This is what I perceive as the problem with Night elves. To simply call it arrogance would not be covering the whole thing, but for attempt at saving time Ill basically say they are arrogant. When it comes to Night elves being arrogant, some might think that would be a mistake, after all look at what they have lost, the blood elves humiliated then when they started coming back to their highborne arts, the orcs ambushed and defeated many of them in their own forests, and before that their immortality was lost to the burning legion. However the night elves would always pull through, if their mage apprentices die that's fine, they still have the druidic arts to fall back on and that has never failed them, if the orcs are in the forests too long, even Varian comes to eventually help them save the day.

The problem here is that the Night elves either refuse to realize or don't understand what taking in new allies, especially the night-borne would do for them. Yes Tyrande eventually becomes nice to the Nightborne, but compare that to what the blood elves are doing "we will exact vengeance on ellisande for attacking your people, we know what addiction feels like, and we have had to depose of our once honored rulers as well" Already the blood elves are reaching out, trying to wrap their arms around the nightborne, we already see their magisters figuring out how Nightborne magic works and can infer that they are cozying up bigtime to the Nightborne, surely ready to take in as many as possible to their side. Now this is all my opinion and quite a bit of rambling, but I think that tyrande doesn't really understand the benefits of getting the nightborne on their side other than to temporarily stomp Ellisande. They can offer Elune, a re connection with the rest of the Night elves and i'm sure many other things. But as of now to me, the Night elves still despite all the beatings they have come through, still are too arrogant to try to bring in new allies to strengthen themselves.


This was a long ramble. Tl'dr I think the night-borne don't understand the possibilities that the Nightborne would offer them, and will let the blood elves take them from under their nose if they dont try anything.

I would say they are arrogant, but I think they are on verge of even greater change that should see them more ambitious and determined to now embrace new things or former old things that were good but they felt they had to leave behind because of the "complications" they caused.

I think Tyrande is still annoyed at the WotA events, why? Because these are more than just any other people to her, afterall they behaved far better than the shen'dralar did in the wotA, but Tyrande seems almost cross in a way you would with close family, judging them by higher standards than you would a stranger.

There's history there, and I think it would be disappointing if blizzard instead chooses Tyrande to maintain the whole "nightwell must be destroyed" rather than cleansed stance, which is fine to have in the initial reaction because you're a bit emotional, etc, you don't know what's happened. but once you have discovered the courage the nightborne are showing, also heard their side of the events and seen they're actually as committed to disposing of the legion and Elisande in a similar way to how Ravencrest and Farondis rose up against Azshara, as well as the other night elves - coupled with the fact that her side is desperately in need of the magical boost, it's like their biggest deficiency, add to that the result of destroying the first well - it would be insane for Tyrande to seriously want to go through with destroying the nightwell.

3 other factors also have to come into play too.

• 1. The cure. The nightborne are cured of the enslavement of the nightwell, and consequently all highborne, night elf kind have freedom from arcane imbalance (addiction) that started before the war of the ancients. This is the long work of the Valewalkers. Tyrande at the point of the statement doesn't know this. The use of magic or nightwell will no longer be a health hazard - as the arcane should never be. The source is still corrupted, but that is something priests can fix. they've been cleansing moonwells all this time.
• 2. The nightwell is not the reason for the demons' arrival. Tyrande doesn't know that yet. She isn't aware of World souls, at the time of this, khadgar only just found out after Magni's revelation a little earlier. As far Tyrande is concerned, the demons are after the well and it's Night elf well's that keep drawing them. She isn't even aware that the Well is life blood of the planet -all those leylines the eye of aman'thul combined with the small font atop suramar palace to form the night well are Azeroth's veins and arteries. She isn't aware of this yet. Which might be why despite the gains using a well might have, she at that point thinks it shoudl be destroyed.
• 3. Illidan's return will change things again, because the whole "vexation with the well of eternity" stems from his presumed betrayal in setting up the well of eternity and the misconception that it is all the demons are after. Remember Tyrande and the night elves still think this is the case. It is Illidan that will provide the truth on this, and Elune is behind him, this will be significant for Tyrande. Who's always been coming to his rescue. She did it on top of Hyjal by persuading Jarod not to sentence him to death, and she freed him, killing members of her own order who refused to obey her - because it was important. She again advises her husband that they need the Illidari demon hunters at Anduin's coronation after the Broken Shore when the Slayer reveals the demons in the throne room.

Illidan will want to use the potential of the Nightwell to strike at Argus. remember that his spell in the novel Illidan needed a powerful source, the WEll of Eternity would have been perfect, except he had no access in Outland, and now he would want to use the Nightwell. furthermore, the arcane source with magic been wielded can be used for a hell of a lot more than the night elves were using it for, not just healing the land and enhancing natural life, but rebuilding their broken civilizatoin.

You'd have to factor in there will be a shift in night elf psychology and motivation after this - Suramar returned is a full functioning majestic city from the past, though forever lost, but it gives a building block. Illidan's revelation about the demons, the titan soul, Azeroth - a lot of night elf guilt would perish and it would be replaced with a drive to rebuild and be able to take the fight to the demons. Tyrande as a tactician would know quite well the druidic powers and priestly powers will not be sufficient, They were not sufficient against deathwing, the twilight cult, the horde or ragnaros, they needed the arcane, like they needed it in WC3, and they can't be relying on humans to provide it for them when they have far better and more skilled masters in their own racial group in the nightborne and highborne, there own kin. As cross as she may be initially with them, Tyrande will have family and friends amongst the nightborne, and we see her wanting to help them.

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The implications for that are quite interesting in general after all and how much the horde might have changed them. The night elves see it as insulting, but it seems the blood elves don't see it that way anymore, otherwise the blood elves would insult themselves with these figurines, since they are related to the night elves.

it's more like they know it annoys the night elves especially than anything else, it's like when white racists tend to call blacks monkeys, and blacks are offended by it, even though most of the insulters know we were all black once and all came from monkeys. And yeah, how many women call men hairy apes, caveman or monkey, yet the white ones don't seem anywhere near as offended as the more senstive black ones. Especially in britain and the U.S - and the reason this is because of this over-sensitivity black westerners have over racial references to them by whites... something that is not shared by african blacks who couldn't care less if they were called monkeys or not.

Classic school psychology, you call people the names you know irritate them the most. No logic needed, the goal here is to insult, provoke and spite beacuse of your hatred or dislike, so you use what they're most sensitive about.

[The Stormbringer]

Wait, is this a real thing? Is there actually a group elven camp? Where can I find this? o.O

[Raetary]

Wait, is this a real thing? Is there actually a group elven camp? Where can I find this? o.O

new suramar quests, blood and night elven camps around suramar planning to retake the city.

story leads up to the nighthold.

[Dopplegager]

I keep seeing a quote that people are posting on here to the effect that a night borne can't believe they descended from primitive night elves.

Question time. Didn't a lot of these night borne literally use to be night elves? This isnt like the highborne that eventually change into blood elves. Some of these characters are actually remembering the fall of Azshara because they were there.

These characters seem to be much older than blood elves. Shouldn't Malfurion or Tyrande know some of these night borne?

Night borne are night elves.

[Combatbutler]

I keep seeing a quote that people are posting on here to the effect that a night borne can't believe they descended from primitive night elves.

Question time. Didn't a lot of these night borne literally use to be night elves? This isnt like the highborne that eventually change into blood elves. Some of these characters are actually remembering the fall of Azshara because they were there.

These characters seem to be much older than blood elves. Shouldn't Malfurion or Tyrande know some of these night borne?

Nightborne don't doubt they descend from night elves. But night elves don't believe they descendet from trolls and are insulted about it, despite it being the truth.

Night borne are night elves.

Not anymore they are Shal'dorei now.

[ravenmoon]

@ravenmoon

Yes Tyrande eventually becomes nice to the Nightborne, but compare that to what the blood elves are doing "we will exact vengeance on ellisande for attacking your people, we know what addiction feels like, and we have had to depose of our once honored rulers as well" Already the blood elves are reaching out, trying to wrap their arms around the nightborne, we already see their magisters figuring out how Nightborne magic works and can infer that they are cozying up bigtime to the Nightborne, surely ready to take in as many as possible to their side. Now this is all my opinion and quite a bit of rambling, but I think that tyrande doesn't really understand the benefits of getting the nightborne on their side other than to temporarily stomp Ellisande. They can offer Elune, a re connection with the rest of the Night elves and i'm sure many other things. But as of now to me, the Night elves still despite all the beatings they have come through, still are too arrogant to try to bring in new allies to strengthen themselves.

I don't think blizzard is showing eligibility for recruitment here on either side, but rather why they are both compassionate to the cause. There is still far more night elf interaction with nightborne than blood elf. Tyrande and Liadrin here seem to show a softer side and compassionate grounds to why the factions are helping. It is to stop the legion, but Liadrin is not without compassion to those she can at least empathize with. Compare that to Rommath or Vereesa, who are rather aloof concerning the nightborne, the blood elf magister you rescue is also aloof. It seems it is Liadrin because of her light connection (priest turned paladin, close to Adal etc) that is showing any compassion. And when you look at Tyrande, her reactions seem a lot more personal, involved. Harsh seeming at first, but as you progress, they shed better context on her opening statements. combine them with what you know she knows at that time, you can clearly tell this means more to her than meets the eye. She seems hard and cold at first, but look at how she softens.

Here is Tyrande's reactions this week:


This is the woman who last week crossly said they are no longer my people. She is definitely moved by all this, and she feels for her people, here are some of thes world quests she gives you:



Tyrande clearly was not aware of the full extent of what's going on,

Also remember this?


The littany of requests Thalyssra doesn't have time to deal with? Here is Tyrande's so called unreasonable response:

this is what Tyrande is asking you to do, first this..

clearly not all emo or raging, but rather desiring dignity and corperation and she thanks you, clearly grateful, not a hint of arrogance or scorn: on completion:

then she asks you to:


Clearly getting you to assist bringing the army up to date. Remember how many thought Tyrande was being bothersome and petty .. turns out not at all!
: it gives me the impression even Thalyssra is avoiding those piercing gaze of the high priestess. Thalyssra has really come off as the night in shining armor, but Tyrande exposes the act of going under the shield as less than honourable, and it's true, Thalyssra I think is avoiding Lady Tyrande, because, while Thalyssra may not have time to deal with trolling, this second part she should definitely have time to, so it indicates more like big sister to little sister. which is what you would expect of the High Priestess in more of a mother like figure, especially one who's seen a lot more battles than the brave younger Thalyssra. This is conjecture ofc, but Tyrande is aware the army needs help, Thalyssra being first arcanist would definitely know this, she now comes of as avoiding Tyrande, I think she's feeling a bit guilty of the past, cos Tyrande is right. But it has the feel of family to it, you wilt under mother or big sisters righteous gaze for a time but she comes round when she see's you're genuine, and you regain your confidence, having earned the right to stand alongside her in battle after your sacrifices.. especially when Tyrande will realize all what Thalyssra has endured. The nightborne are not allowing others to do the work for them, they're committed to freeing themselves, and they are the reason the rest of us are here.

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I keep seeing a quote that people are posting on here to the effect that a night borne can't believe they descended from primitive night elves.

Question time. Didn't a lot of these night borne literally use to be night elves? This isnt like the highborne that eventually change into blood elves. Some of these characters are actually remembering the fall of Azshara because they were there.

These characters seem to be much older than blood elves. Shouldn't Malfurion or Tyrande know some of these night borne?

Night borne are night elves.

don't over-exaggerate or mis-interpret Silgryn's statement, it is given as a measure of the relative progress of the elves have made since the sundering. From what he sees, the Shal'dorei have continued excelling, but the kaldorei have seriously regressed and the Sin'dorei are behind where teh nightborne are.. it is hard to see that they all came from the once proud and glorious night elf empire - this is the heart of what he is saying, but not in a rude way.

It's not that he is cursing their phsyical development no, quite the contrary , the night elves are quite the healthy speciment compared to the curse of the nightwell endured by the nightborne, it's how they appear to him now. And Elisande you will find out in a few weeks is a lot more rude about it.

Also you're right this is not like the highborne who eventually changed to high/blood elves. this is the same generation, these guys are still living in night elf empire culture, not under Azshara's rule ofc, but Elisande who up until recently was quite fair and just - the legion ofc has forced her to be respon ding this way.

And yes, Malfurion and Tyrande will know some of these nightborne. THe moonguard mention their familiarity with their kin they've been separated, Tyrande also mentions it. Tyrande remembers Arcanist Thalyssra, and later on Elisande jibes Tyrande about their mutual acquaintance (Malfurion) obviously there is some history concerning Malfurion and Elisande from the past.

Illidan and Malfurion's home city is Suramar. Born in Val'sharah (or at least dedicated there - Val'sharah is a region of Suramar - the night elf name for the broken isles) the Stormrages lived in the city, Tyrande was born there, Malfurion was pariah on the outskirts. This is Maiev and Jarod's home city too - Maiev in WotA trilogy hate for the legion is because of the destruction of her home.. Suramar. No one knew what lay under that shield till now. Because it doesn't appear in previous Warcraft literature, some think it was also cloaked and that the events of legion uncloaked the city. before Elisande accepted Gul'dan's bargain.

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Nightborne don't doubt they descend from night elves. But night elves don't believe they descendet from trolls and are insulted about it, despite it being the truth.

Nightborne aren'te descended from night elves, it's not a multi-generation thing, they have been changed to nightborne - it's the same generation - they are now like an arcane version of the night elves that have become even more night based, more night than the night elves, hence ofc the name nightborne.


But yes, there is no doubt on either side that night elves and nightborne are kin - it is mentioned across the board, from the Suramar intro video in Thalyssra's on words, Highborne ghosts in Azsuna, Valewalker Farodin, the Moonguard, Tyrande herself it is mentioned every time. They are different groups now, and the nightborne seemed really surprised how far the night elf race, the kaldorei are from where they once were - this is echoed in Silgryn and Elisande. (one politely, the other very rudely.)

[Combatbutler]

Nightborne aren'te descended from night elves, it's not a multi-generation thing, they have been changed to nightborne - it's the same generation - they are now like an arcane version of the night elves that have become even more night based, more night than the night elves, hence ofc the name nightborne.

The term most likely derives from their shield, since they lived in utter darkness without the stars and moon, taking the name of the well that saved them from catastrophe.

But yes, there is no doubt on either side that night elves and nightborne are kin - it is mentioned across the board, from the Suramar intro video in Thalyssra's on words, Highborne ghosts in Azsuna, Valewalker Farodin, the Moonguard, Tyrande herself it is mentioned every time. They are different groups now, and the nightborne seemed really surprised how far the night elf race, the kaldorei are from where they once were - this is echoed in Silgryn and Elisande. (one politely, the other very rudely.)

Being kin is nothing special they are also kin to the high/blood elves, Naga, satyr, trolls etc. Nightborne aren't really night elves anymore their isolation changed them, not only physically, they got their own language and we haven't met a single nightborne that is affiliated in some way with elune for example.

[Deleted]

The Troll figurines were far funnier imo than the mini sunwells.

Ah! I am yet to play it on my Draenei mage. I will see it for sure.

[Rhlor]

I would say they are arrogant, but I think they are on verge of even greater change that should see them more ambitious and determined to now embrace new things or former old things that were good but they felt they had to leave behind because of the "complications" they caused.

I think Tyrande is still annoyed at the WotA events, why? Because these are more than just any other people to her, afterall they behaved far better than the shen'dralar did in the wotA, but Tyrande seems almost cross in a way you would with close family, judging them by higher standards than you would a stranger.

There's history there, and I think it would be disappointing if blizzard instead chooses Tyrande to maintain the whole "nightwell must be destroyed" rather than cleansed stance, which is fine to have in the initial reaction because you're a bit emotional, etc, you don't know what's happened. but once you have discovered the courage the nightborne are showing, also heard their side of the events and seen they're actually as committed to disposing of the legion and Elisande in a similar way to how Ravencrest and Farondis rose up against Azshara, as well as the other night elves - coupled with the fact that her side is desperately in need of the magical boost, it's like their biggest deficiency, add to that the result of destroying the first well - it would be insane for Tyrande to seriously want to go through with destroying the nightwell.

3 other factors also have to come into play too.

• 1. The cure. The nightborne are cured of the enslavement of the nightwell, and consequently all highborne, night elf kind have freedom from arcane imbalance (addiction) that started before the war of the ancients. This is the long work of the Valewalkers. Tyrande at the point of the statement doesn't know this. The use of magic or nightwell will no longer be a health hazard - as the arcane should never be. The source is still corrupted, but that is something priests can fix. they've been cleansing moonwells all this time.
• 2. The nightwell is not the reason for the demons' arrival. Tyrande doesn't know that yet. She isn't aware of World souls, at the time of this, khadgar only just found out after Magni's revelation a little earlier. As far Tyrande is concerned, the demons are after the well and it's Night elf well's that keep drawing them. She isn't even aware that the Well is life blood of the planet -all those leylines the eye of aman'thul combined with the small font atop suramar palace to form the night well are Azeroth's veins and arteries. She isn't aware of this yet. Which might be why despite the gains using a well might have, she at that point thinks it shoudl be destroyed.
• 3. Illidan's return will change things again, because the whole "vexation with the well of eternity" stems from his presumed betrayal in setting up the well of eternity and the misconception that it is all the demons are after. Remember Tyrande and the night elves still think this is the case. It is Illidan that will provide the truth on this, and Elune is behind him, this will be significant for Tyrande. Who's always been coming to his rescue. She did it on top of Hyjal by persuading Jarod not to sentence him to death, and she freed him, killing members of her own order who refused to obey her - because it was important. She again advises her husband that they need the Illidari demon hunters at Anduin's coronation after the Broken Shore when the Slayer reveals the demons in the throne room.

Illidan will want to use the potential of the Nightwell to strike at Argus. remember that his spell in the novel Illidan needed a powerful source, the WEll of Eternity would have been perfect, except he had no access in Outland, and now he would want to use the Nightwell. furthermore, the arcane source with magic been wielded can be used for a hell of a lot more than the night elves were using it for, not just healing the land and enhancing natural life, but rebuilding their broken civilizatoin.

You'd have to factor in there will be a shift in night elf psychology and motivation after this - Suramar returned is a full functioning majestic city from the past, though forever lost, but it gives a building block. Illidan's revelation about the demons, the titan soul, Azeroth - a lot of night elf guilt would perish and it would be replaced with a drive to rebuild and be able to take the fight to the demons. Tyrande as a tactician would know quite well the druidic powers and priestly powers will not be sufficient, They were not sufficient against deathwing, the twilight cult, the horde or ragnaros, they needed the arcane, like they needed it in WC3, and they can't be relying on humans to provide it for them when they have far better and more skilled masters in their own racial group in the nightborne and highborne, there own kin. As cross as she may be initially with them, Tyrande will have family and friends amongst the nightborne, and we see her wanting to help them.

- - - Updated - - -



it's more like they know it annoys the night elves especially than anything else, it's like when white racists tend to call blacks monkeys, and blacks are offended by it, even though most of the insulters know we were all black once and all came from monkeys. And yeah, how many women call men hairy apes, caveman or monkey, yet the white ones don't seem anywhere near as offended as the more senstive black ones. Especially in britain and the U.S - and the reason this is because of this over-sensitivity black westerners have over racial references to them by whites... something that is not shared by african blacks who couldn't care less if they were called monkeys or not.

Classic school psychology, you call people the names you know irritate them the most. No logic needed, the goal here is to insult, provoke and spite beacuse of your hatred or dislike, so you use what they're most sensitive about.

I think it's obvious that we're going to use the tomb of Sageras to move argus

[ravenmoon]

Being kin is nothing special they are also kin to the high/blood elves, Naga, satyr, trolls etc. Nightborne aren't really night elves anymore their isolation changed them, not only physically, they got their own language and we haven't met a single nightborne that is affiliated in some way with elune for example.

actually, it's the other way round we are finding. So far it seems more logical that it's the night elves' language that changed, the nightborne speak the original night elven language, as there's has been the most unchanged and unaffected civilization of the 3 night elf groups we know survivied the sundering. Ofc, group 1 split into 2, with their highborne group going off to become the high elves, no longer in isolation, interacting, also losing both immortality and the virtual immortality characteristic of the night group and as is expected with multi-generation groups with large number of external influences and factors, Thalassian today though similar to the elven language is also different.

My estimate would be the original night elven language spoken by the nightborne and the Darnassian language are very similar - Swedish/Norwegian sort of similar or Spanish/Portuguese where as Thalassian is a bit further removed say Italian or Danish.

And no, they are not kin to the trolls. Night elves and blood elves may hate each other, but they know they are kin. Not so with trolls, complete change happened, from Troll to Elf, whereas the different elf groups are more a diversification of the night elf.

Nightborne on one extreme - the dark night extreme
Night elf somewhat in the middle - the moonlit/starlit night
High elf/ Blood elf on the other extreme - the dawn leading into day